"SALUTE ZERO SIX - A Controversial View!" Topic

I have just posted my review of Salute Zero Six on my blog, The Waterloo Campaign in Miniature and welcome any comments to the issues raised in my somewhat controversial article.

To view, please go to….
jcminiatures.blogspot.com

JC
Painter & Wargamer

I dont think you are controversial, I lie your painting style very much with one exception the Dappling on the horses reminds me more of Indian ponies

JC, I will not respond on your blog, since it requires furnishing someone elses email to do so – reminds me of a telemarkered.

I believe that you need to take some time and talk to the manufacturers that attend the shows and find out what the cost are for doing them and the space that they are allowed. Remember, these shows are one day events. The cost involved transportion – and how much can be hauled. Remember, the majority of customers are there to pick up, which is why you have the feeding frenzy of buyers – get what you nee before it gone.

Second, as a manufacture who has gone the gamer route to start with to get a web site done, and having talked to others, it doesn't work like many of you suggest. I know manufacturers who have had gamers quite and not notify them, meaning the web site is dead and they have to find someone new. Many gamers who volunteer to do the sites for lead, find it more work then the lead and their time are worth.

Also, if you read some of the other post about Salute on TMP, you will find that it is a very hecket show for the manufacturers, some of whom have reported at some of the shows having their painted displays ripped off. You may say, bring a lighted display case – but how much room that display case take in the vehicle used to haul product, space need to display product, and working area to deal with the customers?

My point is this, with the time limitation of Salute, I would quess that 90% of the sales are predermined (as you noted by the Frenzy pace of the buyers) prior to people showing up at the door.

Joel

"The awards ceremony at 3pm was an eagerly awaited and crowded affair, adding substance to my belief that the competition is a key component of the show."

That, or the fact that the £500.00 GBP 'Salute cash' was about to be raffled.

Compared to Golden Demon the Salute painting competition doesn't get a lot response, the number of entries alone isn't very impressive (though there were some very nicely painted ones). It isn't advertised very well and it doesn't count a lot within the painters comunity.
It would help a lot if winners would be well presented pictures in a Wargames Mag like Wargames Illustrated, I assume this would attract many more people to attend.

I left a comment :)
You raise several important issues.

The 'photos on websites' has been done to death. Those that want to, do and those that don't, don't. Nobody has their opinion changed by the 'debates'. Manufacturers who don't have photos don't seem to think that putting photos up is worth the effort. It's their choice I guess.

General bad websites is par for the course. There are a large number of very big businesses that have pathetically bad websites. Wargames companies are small potatoes compared to them and we shouldn't expect too much maybe :)
Personally though they annoy the out of me. (Hello TAG)

Displays at shows has been answered above I think, it's about time, space, money and other logistical nightmares. I vote we help out by making all major (and as many minor as possible) shows three day extravaganzas!!!!
Failing that, there's no real solution is there? Not when you're selling little lead men at £1.00 GBP a time. Selling cars for £1,000.00s allows you to pay for booth babes and lighting etc. Selling cars in resin for £10.00s doesn't.

The painting competition?
Discussing this is fraught with pitfalls, you leave yourself open to cries of 'sour grapes' no matter how much you deny it. I don't like the Salute painting competition, never have. I've entered it (and won stuff) in the past but…..
I do feel that it's an undervalued part of the show, it does feel that the organisers include it because it's expected but they don't attach any importance to it. Perhaps because it doesn't bring in any money?
Entries are not displayed well as you noted and personally I've never trusted the security arrangements although this year was a BIG improvement.
Better minds than mine will find the solution to this one :)

There's nothing too controversial about your blog!
The painting comp is way better than last year. let's hope it continues to grow.

Golden Demon is considered the main painting comp by many (for anything around 30mm). Of course it's GW figs only- so Salute are probably the main contenders for hosting 'the world painting championships' . I think multiple cash prizes should lure in the big boys!

Just look at Euro militaire- amazing standard, but mainly larger scales. Maybe one day Salute will be as well known for the painting comp as Games day is for Golden Demon today.

"Salute was housed in N7, one of 17 halls each the size of a giant aircraft hangar"

I don't think that's correct. The Nx were for doors not halls. Salute had at least 6 doors (N6 for example is shown in the photo directly beneath this statement).

As to the rest I'll echo the others. I didn't see much controversy there. The display cases 'were' poorly lit but I'm sure that will improve next year just as the display cases themselves were an improvement on last year.

As for companies bringin along display cases filled with painted miniatures then I think that's pretty much impossible for the majority of companies. As a retailer it's actually impossible for me but for any manufacturer who has more than a couple hundred codes then it's just money down the pan. Cases cost money, painted minis cost money, the extra space to put them costs money, the larger van to carry them costs money and so on.

Frankly I struggle even to compromise. We normally showcase one particular game system and bring along a single display case for that system. Trying to find (and pay for) room for others is a logisitics nightmare.

I don't think that you understand the costs involved in trading at any show, let alone one like Salute.

Van Hire (Friday to Sunday) GBP 150
Hotel (one night) GBP 86
Stand Fee GBP 530ish
Power for lighting (declined) originally around GBP 70 per stand went up to around GBP 150.

Now you tell me which of those four I am going to save on! Hence the poorly lit displays throughout the show!

OK, we take the equivalent of one-month's sales in one day, but even that does not make Salute worthy of additional investment in the form of better visuals for display, signage etc. What we would need to enhance our presence at Salute would not be a lot of use for our normal 12 feet at the other 20 or so shows we support (numbers similar to which most traders there do).

Belive it or not, most of us have something which works. Our (ainsty) website (badly in need of remedial) two clicks gets you to the individual model page. Horribly 1990's but it generates 75% of our work and enough to keep us busy. (I always keep in mind that we have the former KC Kid in middle-America still using his 386!

We put boxes on the counter, typical market stall. But, this was a conscious decission as in our early days Pat had little product knowledge. Customers picked the models they wanted, gave them to her and her job was to add and take payment. Again it works!

I would love to throw a couple of thousand pounds at our display and presentation for Salute but it really makes no sense.

Finally, the painting comp as the main attraction – come on! 5000 guys came in, 4000 of them to buy and glance at a few games of interest.

Mike B

Mike, either you haven't read the post on my blog or you have misunderstood my points.
Let me work backwards:

1. Painting Competition.
Salute is a show for devotees of wargaming miniatures of all genres and with 6,000 visitors is in a superb position to take advantage of the wealth of painting talent in the UK and put on a "Showcase" of this talent allowing us visitors to admire their work. The 4,000 visitors that you mention simply to buy is because of the tiny emphasis put on Salute's showcase of talented artists, which, as I stated on my blog, is an enormous pity. If Salute did ever position itself as "THE PREMIER SHOWCASE" of talent, I'm sure your 4,000 would stop to admire and not simply use Salute as a shopping day out.

2. I do understand the costs involved to exhibitors, and again, as I mentioned this is NOT The Motor Show or an industry flush with money. But the winners can clearly be seen – those that invest in the talent out their in the UK. How does a stand expect to see an increase in sales if it doesn't invest a little in a display case, some painted miniatures that bring the figures to life, and web sites that clearly show your product lines. Display cases don't cost thousands of pounds – and they're certainly an investment that shows a certain professionalism clearly lacking in a number of cases at Salute.
I for one do not understand the mentality, "We have something that works, so why change?" If you want to increase sales, and thereby increase your profits, then my desire for a little bit more of a professional approach is a reasonable route to market. Badly built web sites of traders have become endemic and it's such a pity.

Finally, my blog with a readership of 16,000 readers in little under 3 months, many of whom have commended me on my desire to produce a professional and informative site hopefully will give hope to those devotees of all genres of wargaming that, at little or no expense, an attention to detail can go along way in generating a loyal audience. I'm not a trader, just a punter but a disgruntled punter none theless…and if I can start a constructive debate about improving the industry from a buyers (customers) perspective then I'm happy whether or not my views and opinions are right.

It is high time we buyers aired our thoughts and opinions…constructively! What can be wrong in wanting to see some of the best painting talent out there in the UK (as seen on CoolMiniOrNot.com) at Salute? The only reason they'll come is if "Showcase" is run more professionally!

JC
The Waterloo Campaign in Miniature
jcminiatures.blogspot.com

I'm sorry, but I was one of a group all waiting for the £500.00 GBP draw and not the results of the painting competition. Whilst a painting competition is a good idea in principle, I really don't believe that it has the level of importance you attach to it for the ordinary Salute punter.
Unfashionable as it may seem, IMHO many punters attend Salute exactly because IT IS a giant shopping mall, where you get the chance to see planned purchases 'in the flesh' as well as a dose of inspiration from some of the games (Rorke's Drift, Waterloo).
Lastly, I do clearly remember viewing your entry. I thought your Uhlans were superb, BUT, one of them didn't appear to have had the basing completed? I think you'd have been better off leaving this particular figure out from your entry.
Juts my opinion tho…………………

@ Brushlicker,

Thanks for your kind words. Just in case you weren't reading my daily posts about my efforts to paint the Uhlans, clearly they weren't finished but felt obliged to take them to Salute so that those reading my blog entries could see the figures for real.

Back to the painting competition…it never said it is the main attraction, just that I'd like it to BE a mojor attraction in the future. As my article states…Salute is used by the majority to stock up for the year then leave – I'd just like to see more of other painter's work at the show.

JC
The Waterloo Campaign in Miniature
jcminiatures.blogspot.com

JC,

you may have 16,000 people that view your blog, but that does in turn that you have 16,000 people that are of the same mind set and of the same opinions.

First, most dealers are able to track their sales from one show to the next – we do. Thus, we are able to know from one year to the next if business has gone up or gone down and what products do the most. Like Mike of Ainsty says, manufacturers also evaluate the cost of space, amount of merchandise needed and what will fit in the vehicle used to haul it to the show. Second, to this evaluation, is what they hear most from consumer at the stands, "What, your already out!" In the nine plus years that I have been doing shows in the US, the most citical issue is not displays, (yes they help and do draw customers, but we are also doing 3 to 4 day shows, and I know my space at Cold Wars cost less than what most dealers have to pay for Salute) is the issue of stock on hand. Remember, 6,000 people have ventured to Salute or any show with the major purpose of purchasing. They want the stock to be there so that they can take in home and get started.

Also, you many others assume that manufacturers don't want to add pictures to their web sites. They don't want to feature painted figures. They don't want display cases, etc. etc. etc. The truth is they would like to do more of this stuff, but it takes time and money and space – all of which are limited. You say, "I am sure there are gamers would like to help!" And, every manufacturer that I know has found this to be true, but it always falls short and leaves the consumer with a bad taste in their mouths, and the manufacturer having to start over ever three to six months.

My question is this, in stead of complaining about what is missing, why don't you pick a manufacturer and volunteer to paint their figures, photograph them, and submit them to their web page – and even volunteer to help with the web page. In a years time let us know how you feel about you ideas and if they are as easy as you think they are.

Joel

I didn't find your blog remotely controversial – i've heard it all before…. You seem almost ungrateful that 100s of people work like dogs (usually in their 'spare' time) to provide you with your toys – how dare they not market them 'professionally'! You might get the web presence and trade stands you require if you were prepared to pay about 5 quid a figure (you might be able to afford that – but i reckon you'd find yourself in a pretty lonely hobby).

On websites….you get what you pay for. Fans and kids don't produce and maintain quality web sites – professionals do. Even a far eastern software house would charge serious money for the kind of web shop you demand.

It seemed to me that the only people interested in the painting competition were the entrants.

'It was about allowing readers of my blog attending the show to appreciate and above all view my work at first hand.' You what? Methinks you take the hobby too seriously mate – you paint toy soldiers!

UK shows are primarily shopping trips. It was different 20-30 years ago, and some of the local shows have preserved that more relaxed, social thing (and, god forbid, some still focus on competition gaming). I can't see the big shows changing (and with new traders constantly springing up i can see them focusing even more on the trade) I reckon if you want to show off your painting you should stick to the web.

Just to change the topic slightly, I found the new venue took a lot longer to get too, it was crowded outside the hall and on the tube train (due to other shows running at the same time), and the hall was characterless.
I got home thinking it would be a lot easier ordering figures through the post next year.
Bring back Olympia!!!!!

@ Edinburgh

"You seem almost ungrateful that 100s of people work like dogs (usually in their 'spare' time) to provide you with your toys – how dare they not market them 'professionally'!

Who are these 100s of people who work like dogs to provide us (the consumer) with the "toys" (as you demeaningly put it). Is it so wrong to hope for a quality of service or am I misguided. As for assuming that my constructive critique can be mistaken for, "how dare they not market them 'professionally'when what I actually said was…"my desire for a little bit more of a professional approach is a reasonable route to market."

As someone who has worked in IT for many many years, I think Sir your fanciful idea that web sites built by professionals cost serious money…maybe three years ago you would have been right but today, professional e-commerce web sites linked to robust sequel server cost an nth of the price. You just need to know where to look. Webmaster forums for one. To give you an example, the largest b2b site on the net, Alibaba.com with 10 million users was replicated in its entirity by an Indian software house for an entrepreneur last year at a cost of £9,000…now go and look at Alibaba.com.

Finally, how do you demean your customers…sure we go to Salute to buy, but we also go to salute to admire the painted miniatures on show at the wargaming tables, stands and, maybe one day at Salute Painting Contest. methinks, you treat us customers as greedy moaners…far from it. We simply are trying to bring some constructive criticism to an old debate about a more professional approach to the modelling industry.

As for 'It was about allowing readers of my blog attending the show to appreciate and above all view my work at first hand.' You what? Methinks you take the hobby too seriously mate – you paint toy soldiers! may I ask you visit my blog and explore my efforts (specific to recreating the Battle of Quatre-Bras in miniature), look at my wargamie plates and uniform plates and my posts over the last three weeks highlighting my efforts to paint a squadron of uhlans for Salute.

MY BLOG is there to be enjoyed for FREE and the site stats bare witness to the satisfaction found from using my blog. If you read my blog, you'll have seen that I didn't manage to finish my Uhlans in time for the show but entered them anyway as many readers wanted to see them at the show! God people like you really P*** me off. You're the kind of bloke who despises success whilst you wallow in mediocrity.

I will end my comments to this debate here especially if I'm to respond to pompous fools like the gentleman above. Don't spend any money, stick to your old ways, sell us your "toys" and will continue to recieve what we pay for – your insistence on mediocrity.

I think it is you who needs to get a life…AND YES, I WILL CONTINUE TO TAKE MY HOBBY SERIOUSLY, priding myself that my blog, provides a serious and informative look at the 1815 Campaign, painting miniatures, uniforms, basing minaitures et al. THEN EXPLAIN TO ME PRECISELY WHY IT'S WRONG TO TAKE MY HOBBY SERIOUSLY (WHAT'S WRONG WITH TRYING TO CHANGE ATTITUDES) or do you wish us to continue to be satisfied with mediocrity?

OK…Now visit my blog and come back with your answer!

JC
The Waterloo Campaign in Miniature
jcminiatures.blogspot.com

JC, take it easy buddy before you pop a vein…

You will not find a single consumer not wanting exactly what you desire and describe. On the other hand, keep in mind that for the sellers this is a business from which they expect to make money (at least most of them!)

I believe it is the consumers who must change their purchasing behavior if they desire for the sellers to change their marketing approach! Think about it; if sellers make (enough) money without adopting better/different marketing strategies, then why should they do it? Yes, some could make more money, but (1) they may have reached already their break even point, or (2) simply they don't want to increase their expense budget for various reasons…It's just business!

Here's what I do: I never buy figures unless I have a crystal-clear, close-up picture of them, preferably unpainted. In lack of such intelligence, I accept (free) samples! As I buy A LOT of figures each year, I believe that with my purchasing behavior I make a strong statement backed up by thousands of dollars!

It really does not matter who is wrong or right…What matters is where we spend our money. Consumers "vote" with their dollars/euros/pounds!!! It's the same whether you buy figures at Salute or yogurt at the supermarket…

JC

As I said above, which in part supports what you are saying – I would love to have a couple of thousand pounds to spend on a Salute stand, but it is not justified.

Earlier today I looked at the website of a company which I would regard as one of the UK's top 20 wargames manufacturers. A layout not unlike one offered to me a year or so ago. Limited displays, minimal detail and best of all no link to actually click and buy something! They will have parted with good money to an expert for that! You do have a point with websites but I would rather have one which works than one which looks nice and don't!

We deliberately keep Ainsty at below the VAT threshold and so expansion, more profits etc means that I get a new partner in the form of HMC&R who will take the 17 1/2% but do nothing to share the work involved – and involve me in extra record keeping to boot.

No quarrel with enquiring looks at the hobby but your GBP 1 million which walked through the door – and I would put it nearer to half of that gets spread very unevenly. We were told about the trader who took GBP 31,000 at Salute '05 and this sort of gave an impression that we were all into that kind of sales volume. Well, one here is not! And the 31,000 guy did have his usual show display, nothing special for Salute '06.

Mike B

Interesting read.
So heres few more things to consider,
This years show was the first at the new venue, I don;t think too many of the traders had any idea what the venue looked like, otherwise we may have had some chance of providing some kind of "flag" or nameplate to show punters where we where hiding. So think on that first before you criticise us all.

As for providing you with some gloriously painted figures to look at, well I would love to employ Steve Dean or John Treadaway, or one of the many other excelllent figure painters, to paint my entire range to an exacting high standard, but unfortunately I can't afford it!! As I think you will find many other traders will have the same problem.
I will paint the figures myself, but I thiink my sad efforts will not be up to the standard you want, but at least its affordable.

I would also love to spend endless hours at my computer making a wonderful website for you to peruse, but sadly I have to do a "real" job to pay for my mortgage, bills etc, the rest of my spare time is spent making vehicle masters to help cover the sculpting costs for my figure range, because ,believe it or not, we have to pay sculptors to make our figures, well those of us who can't sculpt have to anyway!

I have a purely functional website, its not pretty to look at, or have all the whistles and bells you want, but it does have photos of the figures, and eventually I'll get around to jazzing it up a bit.

So I guess I will fall into your also rans category, because I also do not possess a revolving display case, or a massive tradestand with fantastic displays of superbly painted figures.
I do however provide a fast mail order service, I reply to all e-mails from my customers, and every new order gets a short guide to the troops they have purchased, that has a small painting guide included.

Keep plugging away with your efforts to raise the standards, because its no bad thing, but please bear in mind that not all of us are the Perry Twins. or Foundry, Or Games Workshop, and most of us work bloody hard to provide gamers with the things they want.

Nigel Higgins

Anglian Miniatures

If I might add one more thought…I have been told quite often that by not being willing to buy figures sight-unseen, I probably miss some great figures out there!

My usual response is that, although such remote possibility might exist, I do not have enough money to waste on such experiments…Although a few figures bought as samples might cost a mere few dollars/euros/pounds, I have failed to find a free source of money! So, I guess it's business for me too!

All I ask from miniature manufacturers and retailers is a simple, FUNCTIONAL website, and good clear pictures of their products, unpainted, preferably.

One of the best examples of this? Hasslefree.
- Their site is simple and loads quickly
- Photos are reasonably large, with one or more views of an unpainted mini, and sometimes an example of a painted one as well.
- Easy to use and process payments.

Less than sterling examples? Games Workshop and Foundry
- Websites are complex, demonstrating excellent technical aptitude. However, there is a tendency to be bug-ridden, or causing popping up of new windows etc. Gets a tad annoying at times.
- Pictures are either of fully painted miniatures ranked up (GW) with miniscule pics of the sprues (their metals are better done). Foundry has loads of painted figures, but their photo size is exceedingly small.
- No comments on payments, have never bothered to use them.

Worst example? The Assault Group
- Site apparently uses some weird scripting that takes AGES to load, and sometimes fails to load at all (as of Dec 05)
- Pictures don't load, so I can't comment.
- I phoned them. They were very nice people to deal with over the phone, but their website was a downright ogre.

My 2 cents. It's not so much about the presentation in this hobby, as many excellent manufacturers are small scale. They don't need to compete to attract large portions of a consumer base. Those who are already in the hobby, probably know exactly what they want, and no amount of flashy tack-ons will change that. Just the information to allow them to make the choice.

Cheers

@ Ionnis…

Thanks for adding to this debate and like you, I WILL never purchase miniatures online that I can't view online! I fail to understand why traders and many manufacturers can't take a simple digital shot of an unpainted mini and provide a link to the image beside the ref number for that image…it's so simple and doens't cost a penny (ok, you'll need to spend £100.00 GBP on a digital camera – surely a good investment! Furthermore, I'm of the opinion "if you don't ask, you don't get"…and have come to the conslcusion that the reason no trader or manufacturer has asked me if I'd paint for them is because:

1. My painting skills are not good enough.
2. I would cost too much
3. Don't bother to think of asking.

If I was a trader, I'd be out there contacting all the amazing talent that I come across from surfing the web (many of whom would welcome the opoortunity to paint for lead in return) or better still, with transparency on the side of the trader, for a royalty if sales from posting the painted images online result in increased sales.

But then no manufacturer has asked me.

@ Mike of Ainsty
My estimate of £1m turnover was not meant as a sneer but simply an estimate that of 6,000 visitors, each spent approx. £150.00 GBP As many previous responses state…the majority go to Salute to buy!

@ Gunbuster
As my review on my blog states, Excel is a stark venue. i possibly agree that Olympia has more character but less facilities.

Dear JCLondon,

I read your comment's with interest and found them to be constructive and very supportive of the entire show process and the hobby in general. Furthermore, I did not detect any evidence of sour grapes in your comment's regarding the painting contest and thought your praise of the contest winner and other entrants to be those of a very good sport.

You have been accussed of "taking the hobby too seriously". Your webpage is brilliant to say the least and one of the best things to have come along in very long time!! Thankfully some in our hobby do take it seriously, seriously enough to devote your time and effort to bring a stand out webpage to those interested free of charge….just in case no one else has said it, thanks JC!!

I'm not a wargamer but enjoy painting beautifully sculpted Napoleonic figures (toy soldiers) such as those produced by Alan Perry. I personally love seeing the work of gifted painter's such as yourself and glean ideas and motivation from the efforts of other's.

There are those in the hobby who bring something to table and those that bring nothing. Please know that your effort's are appreciated even down here in Australia!! keep up the great work and I wish you every success in the future.

This is an interesting thread with many good points raised. I have some comments and some questions which I'd like your views on.

Customer expectation:
One thing I remember from a conference that attended (on techical support) was a speakers statement that it is important to set your customers expectations. Otherwise your organisation may be inappropriately judged along with the likes of Airlines, or other premiere organisations, who can afford to give away free flights or cash compensation when they make a mistake and have a multiture of staff all waiting to take phone calls.

When many wargames businesses are run by enthusiasts, who's staff consists of one or two people, what are customers reasonable expectation from them? Bearing in mind that they are the customer relations department, shipping department, logistics and transport department, development department, accounts, IT services, managing director and office boy all at once.

If we considered the effort which most wargames business proprietors put into their work, and compared this with their return, I think that we would find that running these businesses is not a financially justified.

JC raises a good point about investment which is something every business has to consider. Better displays at shows and better web sites would lead to higher sales. I leave it up to the traders to decide if the costs justify the return.

Another thing to consider is that traders (of minis they produce) only have so much time. They may want to spend it sculpting rather than on keeping their web site up to date with photos of minis. People can freely choose not to buy figures they can't view on a web site.

I'm grateful for the hard work mini manufacturers put into their minis. I think its wonderful that they support the hobby in such large numbers. If their web site is not top notch, or if they are slow in responding to emails, I try to be understanding.

To Mike of Ainsty:

Have you considered using a large battery to power your displays? The costs you mention for electricity are a rip off. In my home I have a very large battery (I think its designed for an articulated lorry) which can run 5 tube lights, 3 regular bulbs and 3 fans and a TV for three hours. I'm sure it could run some display cabinets for a full day. Its a hassle, but it would be nice to get around the rip off charges which you mention.

Can someone PLEASE tell me what the VAT threshold is in the UK? I'm considering taking a stand at one of the shows and bringing some painted figures to sell.

JC

That was not a sneer and anyone with concern for our hobby, as you have,is a friend of mine! We had eight members of the York club attend Salute, I spent GBP 6.50, another spent nothing a third around GBP 35.00. The rest I don't know but for us Salute is another show on the calender between Vappa and Triples and before Spring Offensive, Elvington and the abandonned Fiasco of this year. Money has already been spent.

Chortle.

We pulled out of one show because of the officious prats who were in the employ of the venue owners who hit everyone with Health and Safety regulations to the point that there was no pleasure for us trading there. I have thought about having an Ainsty display balloon for next year – a big blimp! And some kind of portable battery. But, would ExCeL let me use them? I don't rate my chances.

Mike B

"Can someone PLEASE tell me what the VAT threshold is in the UK? I'm considering taking a stand at one of the shows and bringing some painted figures to sell."

IIRC it's currently £61,000. That's turnover not profit.

The VAT threshold is £60,000.

With regards to the £1,000,000 estimate of Salute turnover, that's probably about right. Split it between 150 odd traders, and that's less than £700.00 GBP each. Of course the "big boys" eat up a lot of that, so for many firms it's a lot less. Take out van hire, stall costs, overnight accomodation etc, and for many traders their actual Salute profit is not much more than a decent days' wages. That isn't going to stretch to much of anything….

As for website photos; it's been done to death; people that *have* photographed their entire ranges generally haven't seen any remarkable upturn in trade. I've actually gotten piccies up of most of the Tumbling Dice aircraft range (remainder to follow when I have a spare day in between working a full-time job, filling orders, producing my own decal range, having an occasional day off, you see where this is going….?) but it was 2 full days work just getting barely satisfactory bare metal images up. Worth the trouble? Actually, on reflection, probably not. If anyone wants to to prove me wrong by emptying their wallet in my direction, please feel free, but the evidence is against it….

Cheers,
Dom.

domsdecals.com

Steve's probably right; I've not looked lately, and it usually goes up at the start of the new tax year – I don't think it should bother you, Chortle.

Dom

Do your sums again! Add another '0'. but I still think that half a million is more realistic. I think that this year we were busier than ever but with lots more smaller sales. And a lot fewer card sales. Card sales = good spend, cash sale = careful/targetted spend.

Mike B

Thanks for the info about the VAT threshold Steve. If I manage to make it over to the UK for a show I'd be able to import duty free to the UK from Bangladesh (least developed nation) and then not charge VAT as long as I don't hit more than 61,000 pounds in the one day. I think I'll be under that by a few quid.

Mike mentioned card sales, and I'd really have to accept cards in order to sell a decent number of figures to people. How much hassle is it to be able to handle cards? Would it even be possible for a foreign company to do this?

Do you think Tripples would be a better show for me? Its a two day event. Does it sit well in the spending calendar?

JC,

I'm glad you appreciated my thoughts….now, a few comments to hopefully lower your blood pressure…

'Toys' as demeaning… hardly, mate. I take a light hearted view of my hobby. I paint and play with toy soldiers. If you take it more seriously than that then you are on dodgy ground IMHO..

'Who are these 100s of people' – ordinary men and women, who usually also hold down 'normal' jobs too. You just don't seem to understand that wargaming is a cottage industry. There is not the money in it thast you seem to think. e.g. half a million spent at salute (just a guess…could be a lot less) ONCE a year – think about it..a single SME in the real world would burn that in 12 months no problem. You are obviously a fairly affluent young man who can afford to spend 100s at a show – most gamers i know simply can't spend that much.

Another example – Mike points out above that Ainsty operate at below the VAT threshold – most traders do, for the very same reasons (indeed the suppliers of the very finest sculpted figures i know make little or no attempt to advertise as they couldn't cope with demand if they did – yet the increase in business would not pay for the extra staff required to meet it). How on earth are businesses operating at that level going to afford professional marketing ?

I've been in IT for 20 years. You're right that 9 grand on a website is dirt cheap in IT terms – but bloody expensive in wargame trade terms. Again, you fail to understand the economics of the business.

'how do you demean your customers…' i don't…dunno where you got that from. Keep tilting at windmills…

'may I ask you visit my blog and explore my efforts (specific to recreating the Battle of Quatre-Bras in miniature), ' … sorry, but i don't have time to visit every blog out there. However, your response just seems to reinforce my original point…

'You're the kind of bloke who despises success whilst you wallow in mediocrity'….have you been talking to my wife? You make a lot of assumptions – which doesn't surprise me at all having read your piece on Salute.

I get the impression you're more a figure collector/painter rather than a wargamer – in which case the BMSS may provide you with what you're looking for link
Salute is primarily a wargame show, wargamers are all to some extent collectors/painters but there is also a separate hobby and show circuit that caters explicitly for collectors – you may find satisfaction there – though be warned, most traders are still mediocre amateurs….

So, relax…stop demanding what you can't have and you'll probably enjoy your hobby more, and STOP SHOUTING.

Oops, yes, impressively schoolboy error by me, Mike…. With that said, I don't know many traders who turned over 7000, which leaves me as sceptical as you of the million turnover figure….

Dom.

Here is a question for those that complain a lot about web sites. First, most who do complain about web sites already seeem to have their favorite web sites that do match their expectations (about 5)and with whom they spend nearly 3/4 of their gaming dollar.

Now that leaves a lot of business out there who do not meet their expectation, who are expected to raise their standards, and for what precentage of their miniature buget?

My question is this, why target the whole industry with a complaint when in reality their are companies whose miniatures you will not buy, pictures or no pictures, and for the rest, that you might buy, your talking so few dollars to be divided by several hundred companies? Would it not be better to just contact privately the companies that you have interest in and may spend your money at then target everyone in the industry?

Joel

'In my view, the competition should be the main centrepiece of the entire show, a place where amateur and professional painters can display their figures of the previous twelve months to this massive 6,000 audience who come to show to admire and buy miniatures –'

I don't agree, I look to look at the painted figures but is never my main reason for going, nor for any of my friends, most of who have been going since the 80's. My main rason for going has always been the games first, shopping second, social third – the painting competition last. It's purely a personal preference, everyones goes there for different reasons.

"If we considered the effort which most wargames business proprietors put into their work, and compared this with their return, I think that we would find that running these businesses is not a financially justified."

Got that right :)

I could be earning multiples of what I do running Artemis Black's. I choose to do this job because money isn't everything to everybody. It's hard work for low reward but to me it's a job that I can get up in the morning and sometimes look forward to. Not many people get to say that.

Well said Artemis,
If there was a ton of money to made selling wargaming figures, then you would see more big companies getting involved, as it stands there are only a few who really make a good living from the hobby, the rest of us get by.
I started mainly because there was not a lot around in my main area of interest (Spanish Civil War) mind you, Force of Arms has just kick-started his range again, so there are now two of us supplying 28mm SCW figures. I won't make a massive fortune, in fact as it currently stands I've made a fairly big loss!! But I can grow my business, and my range, and thus provide a lot more for gamers with the same interest.

JC
"my desire for a little bit more of a professional approach is a reasonable route to market."

Been done mate, they're called Games Workshop, the Chelsea FC of wargaming.

'It was about allowing readers of my blog attending the show to appreciate and above all view my work at first hand.'

The ego has landed!

I've got to admit that I wasn't very impressed by this years'Salute.
Well, let me rephrase that. Not impressed with the venue that is. This was my eighteenth Salute in as many years and absolutely not the best one from my point of view.

The venue lacks character, I'm sure most do agree on that. Something of a cross between a supermarket and an airplane assembly hall. Even with a floorplan it took ages to find specific traders.

Easier to get to than Olympia (or Kensington for that matter)especially for people coming from the continent like myself. A short 20 minute trip on the Jubilee and DLR for £3.00 GBP Can't beat that.

I tend to side with Mike on the turnover thing. Aside from the fact that it is always great to see old friend again
I agree that years ago Salute became the biggest 'shopping show'in our hobby, and as every year I was looking forward to find some new exiting material or at least fill some gaps in existing ranges.

Now, either a lot of people were a lot luckier than I was or the turnover must have been a lot less than assumed.

I wasn't expecting much change from the £1,000.00 GBP I brought with me. In fact, just to be on the safe side I also had my plastic friend with me. You know the one you never leave home without especially when you're going to a wargames show…

Well, I came home with almost £500.00 GBP in my pocket and the Visa hadn't been out of my wallet. My wife still thinks I'm terminally ill.

Why? Except for a few things I pre-ordered nearly everything I wanted was in very short supply.
Few examples? Looking for 12 Graven Images blisters and found four. Three out of 6 Brigade Games, I wanted. No GHQ ships ( possibly missed that stand) and so on. I had a list of books, mostly on the FIW, and still have it.And so on.

In the end I gave up and started looking for exiting novelties. Guess what?

Some of my friends told me I should have pre-ordered everything but what's the purpose of a show then, except for the social part?

I've been wargaming for 30+ years now and I've learned the hard way. Never buy unseen.That new range of figures may look great on the website and it probably also is. It is probably also completely incompatible with the ones you've already got.

Now, contradictory as it may sound my £500.00 GBP is more that the avarage amount mentioned, but please keep in mind that 'over here' we only have two or three shows to spend our money at, not the 50+ you have in the UK so it doesn't really compute.

Oh well, better next year.

Good points Willie.

I was interested in the Musketeer Arabs from the web, but having seen them in the flesh, I passed.

Stock levels are a constant problem at Salute. I am sure the traders are happy when they sell out, but lots of punters are left disappointed.

I've never bought a figure/piece of scenery/vehicle online without a photo and I never will. For example, I keep hearing good things about Old Glory 10mm ancients but, as they don't have photos for their ranges, I won't buy them.
This isn't meant as a criticism of sites without photos. If you don't think it will add to your sales then fair enough. But I've bought figs that, going by description alone, I would never have touched while have left figs which sound great but have no photo. I need to be sure and won't waste my money buying blind.
As for sites, I'll second the Hasslefree one. Simple but effective. Also Old Crow and Copplestone do the job very well with no frills.

It is a 'no brainer' for me – no images on the web site and I will not buy.

But, with the web, who need to go to a wargaming show just to buy. Shouldn't the focus of such an event be the games???

"Stock levels are a constant problem at Salute. I am sure the traders are happy when they sell out, but lots of punters are left disappointed."

The week before Salute our stock levels are through the roof compared to normal (And we pride ourselves on having decent stock levels of the lines we represent) and we 'still' run out of thing.

Within 2 hours of the show opening our Hordes stock had pretty much gone, we'd run out of dozens of codes from multiple lines. Later in the show we were even getting people come from the manufacturers stands to ours to see if we had any of what they'd run out of left. Last year we sold completely out of a whole line by halfway through the show without a single warning beforehand (online order levels hadn't changed, no new releases or extra advertising), it was just one of those things.

The only way to stop that 'is ' pre-ordering sorry. Or take advantage of the 'pay now and we'll give you a discount or free postage' type offers that a lot of us offer at the shows.

A few people have said that they wont buy without seeing pictures first. Unfortunately I dont have that luxury. I really like Connoisseur and Elite 25mm Napoleonics. There are no pictures for Connoisseur and Elite pictures are poor.I resort to seeing samples at shows for Connoisseur(not possible with Elite as he doesn't travel to the southern shows)I've never seen half of these figures that are available. I recently stumbled across some Firing line horses and figures that I'd never seen before. It's a real shame that some manufacturers don't or can't publicise their products more.

I must say I'm baffled by this emphasis on the painting competition. In all the 20 years I've been going to Salute I'd regard that as the least important bit.
It's the display games, the shopping and the socialising that are important to me, at least.

Gunbuster

Off the subject of JC's original post, but sorry about your reaction to the venure. Like the first year at Olympia when we had to 'suck it and see' we'll make what changes we can next year to enhance the day. That goes for all of the show, really.

We know we wont please all of people all of the time but we try and strike a balance between popular and populist. We try to lead and not follow when we can, but evolution withing our budgets is the key phrase, here.

On the other issues raised by JC's post, how should we 'improve' the show? well, lot's of different audiences want lots of different things. But what they all want takes two things: rive and motivation to achieve it, plus the cash to make it happen.

If the traders are strapped for funds to 'improve' Salute, so are the people putting on games and the organisers! On the competitions themseves, we spent money on the glass cabinets this year (best part of five or six hundred quid as I recal, but an investment, I grant you [provinding we don't accidentally smash any!]), £2,500.00 GBP on prizes for the games (mugs, gongs), painting comp (gongs, sword) and raffle. We can only do so much, I'm afraid.

Next year we'll do the best we can with the money we can raise. As I'm sure everyone will.

In regards to the "pictures/no pictures" question, I am very hesitant to buy when no picture is available.

For example, I bought some Minifigs Colonial British last year. Some of the figures have photos, some do not. I bought about thirty of the photographed ones, and two of the non-photographed ones.

Photos help reduce tension in buyers. Even a relatively poor photo that shows pose without much detail is better than no photo at all.

This thread has shocked me. A lot of posts are high on passion and low on realism.

The realities, (and I write as a consumer), are that I don't buy minis or other related items from a figure retailer because they are a nice person, nor because it's their passion, nor because I feel sorry for them because they don't make much out of the time they put in. Don't get me wrong, I respect their passion but the reason I buy them is because somehow I have been convinced that I would derive some benefit from my purchase.

You see what I am driving at here? My purchase decision is about me. I know that sounds selfish but it's the truth in all sales made.

JC makes comments where he, (and please, this is my overview interpretation only), explains some things where as a consumer he thinks can be improved with the purpose of helping him part with his cash.

A lot of people (retailers) have taken this personally. There have been some good responses highlighting the difficulties, e.g. the costs involved for a small retailer to set up a stand. I thought the extra charge for power/light shocking (no pun intended). On the other hand there have also been posts that sound as if people are almost hurt!

WEBSITES / PICTURES
Why as manufacturers do you think it's ok for your customers to be unable to view your products? What other goods do any of us buy without seeing them first? I have only ordered figures sight unseen when I have read good reviews on them, and even then I have started by only buying a handful of samples, (which I know the retailers frown upon).

Contrary to popular opinion websites are not expensive. Let me qualify … If you want an all singing all dancing website and you have zero knowledge of the internet, well you might end up paying a lot BUT it does not have to be complex. As a customer I just want to see a list of what's for sale, and what it looks like. If you can add a page of news and development then that's cool to have. If additionally you can add a gallery of painted figures that that's a good thing too. It would be nice to order on line but frankly I don't expect it from a small retailer and it's often much better to call them up or exchange emails as they help with your selections. That can be done for significantly less than the cost of a stand at SALUTE! A website with a freeware blog would work exceptionally well, (if anyone wants me to expand on this PM me).

Not getting on anyone's case here, just highlighting the thought process of a consumer.

Ssendam, you must have been truly shocked by this post. Unable to contribute for 9 months, hope you're ok now!!!

Salute and the Painting Competition? easy i'm afraid. If they didn't do the £500.00 GBP voucher draw just afterwards we 4 regular saluters wouldn't still be there. We would be on the train lugging our years worth of lead and resin.
I go to Salute to meet old aquatiances, wether they be gamers or traders, to look at the paticipation games to see what ideas are in development and marvel at some of the effort that goes into them. Don't care if a stands display look pretty or if it is well lit. If they stock what i want thats good enough for me and less expense for the traders who have to be able to fit thier stalls into different sized venues each week not just a large warehouse.
No Salute isn't the same as when it was at Kensington or Olympia…i was actually able to get to the the stands i wanted to (avoided the B&B as the prices are normally silly and i hadn't packed my S10 to cut through the BO haze)and even spend time looking at stands i hadn't seen before.
As for buying figures from Websites, if i know the trader and their range, photos are nice but not essential. If i don't know the trader then yes they are required to get me to buy without having seen them up close.