"Did the Red Baron beat himself?" Topic

I read an article recently that asserts a possible reason for Manfred Von Richthoffen's being shot down was his own deathwish.

Certainly, he was not flying up to his usual par the day he died. He was flying too low, too far behind enemy lines chasing an inexperienced pilot, and either let himself get shot by Roy Brown, or by ground gunners, whichever version of the story you believe. However, his flying is against the doctrine that the Baron himself wrote.

The article asserts that Richthoffen was in constant pain from the wounds he had previously suffered, and was depressed because of Germany's impending defeat, and because he had lost most of his friends as they were gradually shot down during the war.

Anyway, seems like an interesting theory.

Comments?

P.S. aecurtis and John the OFM, you guys don't need to post, I already googled it.

Robotic Legionary "aecurtis and John the OFM, you guys don't need to post, I already googled it."

Now THAT's funny!

I am going to post anyway, with or without permission.

I have read that Richtoffen was rather a jerk, and not at all a chivalrous "Knight of the Air". He was supposed to be a very good shot, and not all that great a pilot. Competent, surely, but not the best. (This came from some rather good pilots, and is not my judgement.)
He was also very much an egoist, and had little trophies made for each kill. He was not above "swelling his count", by taking on "defenceless" two seaters, either.

Putting all that together, it is very much in character for the Red Baron to take off after an inexperienced pilot, to "swell his count", and get disteracted. Perhaps he was like an athlete who gets away with everything, until it is too late, and he must pay for his folly. He didn't need a deathwish, just arrogant carelessness.

Look up a book on aces, and look at photographs of Albert Ball, and Guynemere. (sp?) Tell me that hose aren't haunted faces. The episode of Battlestar Galactica with "Scar" the Cylon seem to be a pretty good characterstudy of pilots who see no end to what they do, which is face death every day.

In the final analysis, we will find out what "really" happened that day at the same time we learn who fired the first shot at Lexington. Both are equally unlikely.

I was reading a book a number of years ago. In the photo section they had a picture of Boelke when he started flying and then another about 4 months later.

The change is dramatic to say the least. The man had aged a LOT in that short period.

OFM: Are you sure about all that? Did you google it?

BTW: Typical armchair-grognard crap. The Red Baron was the ace of aces in WWII. But, of course, we're going to believe wannabees who had to sneer at the man after his death, just 'cuz it makes us feel smug to do so.

NO, I read it in a book, something that youngsters today do not believe exists, or if they have heard of them, do not consider worth lifting from the shlf. Too heavy.

Can you tell me a better way to "swell your count" than to go after baby seals? Richtofen was a nobleman who kept a "game book", with his kills in the hundreds, if nto thousands. Did I say he was NOT the Ace of Aces? No, I said that a lot of them were cheap kills made by a crack shot.

He was an arrogant Junker bastard, and there is no need to hero worship him, simply because he killed more Allied fighters than anyone else. If you consider this sneering, be my guest.

John the OFM "NO, I read it in a book, something that youngsters today do not believe exists, or if they have heard of them, do not consider worth lifting from the shlf. Too heavy."

Huh. And here's me, thinking you were just into googling. Go figure. Don't pop a blood vessel old man.

There was a newspaper article somewhere that an RE-8 rear gunner shot him down by accident. Some chap went through the records, been trying to work out who actually killed him: Was it the Australian AA gunners? The Canadian pilot? Turns out that an RE-8, on the way back from a recon sweep, flying through some clouds, had a DR-1 appear next to it. The gunner shot at it, the plane vanished back into the clouds. He thought nothing much of it, and reported that he'd shot at this DR-1 which then vanished, didn't claim it as damaged or anything.

Anyway, when this researcher chap put all the bits together, it looks like this random rear gunner was the man who fired the fatal shots.

Pretty ironic, given that von Richtofen's speciality was shooting down two-seaters.

There really needs to be an edit button on this thing.

It's certainly not impossible that the Red Baron had a death wish – Nelson did, after all…

"BTW: Typical armchair-grognard crap. The Red Baron was the ace of aces in WWII."

Um, WWII? Richthofen died in 1918, 21 years before the second world war began.

'The Red Baron was the ace of aces in WWII."

Bwahahahahahaha!

Did you Google that?

Allen

Sorry, Jakar. You're quicker.

Allen

"The Red Baron was the ace of aces in WWII."

ROTFLMAO!

Weren't the rotation policies of WWII put into place to avoid exhaustion and fatigue situations such as Richthoffen's?

IIRC WWII German pilots weren't rotated, though the US pilots, at least, were…

Damon.

How did I miss that? Here I am, being snottily abused, and I missed the perfect put-down. I need new glasses, I guess. 8^)

Who killed the Red Baron? Two autopsies were carried out on Richthofen to determine who killed him as the Canadian Pilot Roy Brown was eager to the claim the kill, as was the Australian Army, notiably Sergeant Cedric Popkin of the 24th MG Company, and Lewis Gunners Privates Snowy Evans and Robert Buie.

As the action unfolded, the Red Baron was on the tail of a Canadian pilot over the Somme Canal. Roy Brown dived on the Baron in his Sopwith and fired one long burst into the Barons Fokker. The Baron stayed on target for two full minutes following his prey in a steep dive, leveling out 60 feet above Australian lines where his aircraft was shot at by every Infantry men around with every type of weapon. Sgt Popkin put 80 rounds of Lewis MMG fire into the fokker.

The baron crashed immediately near the Bray-Corbie Road.

The first autopsy gave the kill to the Canadian Pilot without explanation as the RFC was keen to claim the kill. Much fuss was made because the Australians claimed foul play and a second supervised autopsy was carried out.

It was found that the Red Baron had been hit in the back by one bullet that penetrated his heart. The autopsy agreed the bullet had come from ground fire. The flyers were never convinced and there will always be that question, who did shoot down the Red Baron? I guess we will never know. But how long can a man survive with a bullet in the heart?

Roy Brown did not report/claim the kill in his initial (original) post-flight reports. Most likely the Baron was killed by ground fire; however, it was favourable to report his death as a victory for the Allied pilots in order to revive flagging spirits and to diminish the power of the Barons fame.

A great deal of time was spent trying to put a romantic spin on the lives and deaths of pilots during WWI. The British pilot Albert Ball has several interesting stores attached to his name…waving off a German pilot when his gun jammed, landing and having tea at the front, and the Bell Tower ambush are my favourites.

Richthofen was a product of his times. To criticize him for not being a sensitive modern man is silly. He was a von when that still meant something and he acted like it. As for the arguement that he padded his score by going after two-seaters, well, that was his job. Dogfighting with another fighter a/c is not the job of an interceptor pilot. Fighter planes have very little bearing on the outcome of a mission. Downing the artillery observation a/c or the recon a/c or the bomber is the main mission of the interceptor, not dogfighting. If you wind up in a dogfight you have probably failed in your mission to stop the intel the other guy is trying to obtain, or the bombing mission he is on.
As for the "chivalry" thing that is a crock in any combat. I recall an incident in 'Nam where a group of VC armed only with hand weapons charged at a Marine roadblock. Instead of shooting them down, the Marines decided to "play fair", fixed bayonets and went over the sandbags at the VC. They sufferd some dead and some wounded while killing most of the enemy. Had they not "played fair" it is unlikely they would have had any casualties.
If you get into a fight the idea is to kill the other guy. He's dead, your not, and that is just the way I would want it. There is no room for chivalry in combat. It's all about killing the other guy. He has a hard time completing his mission from the great beyond.

Regardless of opinions and backstory, I still like Manfred.

aecurtis 'The Red Baron was the ace of aces in WWII."

Bwahahahahahaha!

Did you Google that?

Allen

It's called a typographical error Bozo. Didn't the rest ofthe post make that clear? Google "typographical error."

Curtis, that's pathetic even for you. God man, grow up a little.

Yeah. Curtis and OFM act like they run the place, and then start giggling like little girls over something like this. The immaturity I've seen among old gamers over the years is just plain weird.

The only thing I'd add to wht phililphall said is that two-seaters were hardly defenceless. James McCudden put a lot of effort into surprising them and shooting them down in one pass. Coming around for a second pass was a lot more dangerous.

OFM – if you'd stop reading all those books, your eyesight would be much better…

;-p

Or is it another personal pastime affecting your eyesight?

I just watched a show on TLC or Discovery about great air battles. They went into detail on "dog fights" in WW-I, WW-II, Korean war, and Vietnam. One of the instructors interviewed said they still teach Von Richthoffen's tactics. For me that is a pretty good endorsment. If the modern military still teaches your tactics for modern jets. Don't know how much more you can acknowledge someone??

Didn't Richthofen suffer a nasty concussion a while before being shot down ? Some believe that that may have contributed to his "fall from grace".

Besides there was a Richthofen in WWII : Wolfram von Richthofen

link

PATRICK R SEZ:Didn't Richthofen suffer a nasty concussion a while before being shot down ? Some believe that that may have contributed to his "fall from grace".

He suffered from blinding headaches after being shot down by a two-seater. Those defenseless aircraft don't ya know. The bullet grazed his head and he never completely recovered from the damage.

TMP would be a much better place without Mssrs Curtis and OFM. I'm sick of having my historical and miniature related questions answered promptly and correctly.

'TMP would be a much better place without Mssrs Curtis and OFM. I'm sick of having my historical and miniature related questions answered promptly and correctly.'

Hear! Hear!

:-)

Guy

Hi

"Pappy Boyington": "Show me a hero and I'll Show You a BUM".

I know a large number of fighter pilots and got to know Pappy before his death. Here is the deal, a GOOD fighterpilot is an arrogant SOB. Trust me on this. "real soldiers" perform for their mates, their unit, a fighterpilot is alone. High handed arrogance goes a long way to making him even THINK he can jump on a formation of planes and get away with it.

Throw in the "von" bit and, I have no doubt that V.R would be a drinking buddy for the likes of me and you. So, what?

As for what happened. The round came from below, which ground shooter is in question. What was he doing? Every fighterpilot must feel pretty invlunerable and every pilot sometimes gets fixated on killing the target. Lesser pilots have flown into hills that way, chasing just a little too hard. There is a famous kill by an isreali unarmed trainer in the 6day involving a russian speaker insulting a russian pilot who……well you get the idea.

The reason that "Boelke's Dicta" has the list of things to do and not do is because pilot DO this. V.R screwed up. Even "heros" make mistakes.

There is a problem with the press and most people believing that, somehow, "heros" cannot have an ordinary death. Thus, this continuing obsession with vR dying, and with "who killed Kennedy". Their deaths were too ordinary to be left alone or believed.

Rocky

I vaguely recall reading some years ago that the Baron's kills were 52 or so two-seaters and 28 or so single seaters to add up to 80. A couple of his victims were aces for certain, others unknown. As far as tackling the weaker targets, if you look at a detailed break-down of Ball, Bishop, etc. you will find more two-seaters than pursuits. As has been stated, that's really the mission of the fighter pilot.

I also recall that the Baron stopped having his victory cups made while in the 50s because of material shortages. All from memory and a decade or two ago, so willing to be corrected by someone with better facts.

Michael

"Pappy Boyington": "Show me a hero and I'll Show You a BUM".

Boyington said that because he was the king of bums. Met him a couple of times and wasn't favorably impressed. Also meet several other good fighter pilots, British, American, German and even one Japanese, most were not SOBs as a matter of fact I'd say they were some of the most down to earth people I know.

jdg

Nobody wins a dogfight. Somebody loses.

I've met dozens of WWII pilots, many of them Aces. Only one was arrogant.

Wolfhag

Anyone who believes that von Richthofen was a foolish and arrogant man needs to considerably expand his reading list. A good place to start would be the reminiscences of other German pilots who flew with him and Allied flyers shot down by him and treated to Richthofen's hospitality before their departures to PoW camp.

In terms of his skills as a fighter pilot, he was (like most high-scoring pilots of any war): a terrific marksman, a cautious tactician, a good tactical leader and a ruthless opponent. That's pretty much agreed among the historical community.

I attribute the causes of his demise to likely have been a combination of over-confidence, target fixation and perhaps a sense of fatalism built up over several stressful years over the front.

Strictly my opinion, of course. YMMV.

B