| scowling | 15 Apr 2003 8:42 p.m. PST |
At this point, it's only in the US. In Canada, the Competition Act prevents GW Canada from doing the same thing (the law appears to be very different, and much more conducive to competition, in Canada than it is in the US). I think Great Canadian Miniatures quoted the rulebook to GW when they griped about gc-minis' 30% discounting. |
| KillerPenguin | 15 Apr 2003 9:15 p.m. PST |
Nothing to do with discount levels? Yeah right. Im wondering why does any of this surprise anyone? Remember this is the same company that got spanked many times over the years from everything from trying to own the whole hobby to telling stores'if you carry any other sci-fi or fantasy wargames you'll be cut off from selling ours. even now they still compete with there own customers by putting their own GW only stores right by them.
I say nuts to them and play something else. Id say I think its time GW got knocked off its pedestal but seems there doing it to themselves. |
| Matt Stevens | 15 Apr 2003 9:26 p.m. PST |
Anton 888, "Or maybe because he increases his overall sales by discounting! Our FLGS discounts GW by 10%, and since he has gone that route, sales have increased an overall 26%." Say GW gives Retailers 40% discounts (it's a round number, but a good deal more than I get as a retailer). A $10 item costs the retailer $6. Selling that item at $9 means he loses 25% of his profit margin (ie: makes $3 rather than $4). Gaining 26% in sales volumn therefore doesn't really make up for the increased time taken in stock-checks, ordering 26% more, 26% more money tied up in GW stock, 26% more mail orders or foot traffic service needed, etc. Your store is losing out on the deal if its only gained a 26% increase in sales, 26% more effort on everything for essentially the same money (probably less). The winners are Gamers getting cheap product (not neccesarily a bad thing of course!) & GW selling more. Food for thought... |
| Javier Barriopedro aka DokZ | 15 Apr 2003 9:38 p.m. PST |
That's right, Scowling... This just means: More businees for the Cannucks! Far better prices for the Yanks. I think GWUS will keep on loosing money. Now more than on prior months. It's just a matter of you guys in the U.S. learning the good habit of being patient about when your package arrives. That's all. =Þ But, man, GW is getting worse and worse. I won't even dare mentioning their sorry excuse for "mail order". To me, this is just to avoid the existing brick and mortar "official" stores --the number of which they plan to "very aggresively expand" in the next year-- closing down like Wizkids' Metro area one... Ah, the greed! The pettiness of it all... Ah, true corporate GW! =/ No wonder they lost my business many a moon ago. |
Chogokin  | 15 Apr 2003 9:40 p.m. PST |
Hmm... I've been mulling over this all day. To put things in perspective, I got sucked into the wargaming hobby thanks to a friend who suggested I give 40K a try, so thank you GW. However, I liked wargaming so much that I swiftly branched out into other games, and eventually wound up personally boycotting GW when I realized that there were, IMHO, better rules systems, better miniatures available at lower cost, and better service with other, albeit smaller, companies. The last straw for me was when they stopped allowing their fans to publish the errata for 40K on the web, forcing people to buy their Chapter Approved book to stay current with the rules. So how does GW's latest move affect me? I'm kind of happy they did something that blatantly pissed so many people off, and I'm quite fascinated with the reactions I'm seeing. Of course, those of us on the web are a small minority of gamers, I don't think this is going to affect GW's major income block of 12 year olds at all. What I'm more worried about is that the same web-based stores that supply me with the games and minis I like are going to be hurt by having to pull their GW stuff. I live several hours away from the nearest B&M store, at least the nearest B&M store that carries something besides GW stuff. Which online stores are already completely independent of GW? Which ones are big enough to lop that leg of their business off and keep going? My final thought is directed to any owners of B&M stores who may be reading this. If you don't already, strongly consider carrying at least one alternate line of wargames to GW, and try to start a following for those games in your area. Everything I've read about GW indicates that they will be putting the squeeze on you guys next. |
| Saxondog | 15 Apr 2003 10:13 p.m. PST |
When the original Nintendo first came out, the manufacturer started putting restrictions on retailers, requireing a price be at certain minimums, etc. A group of retailers got togeather and sued the crap out of Nintendo. If I recall correctly it cost them something like $50 million (US).
Now one of the plaintifs was Sears and the gaming community has no giant like that to spearhead such a legal action. Still, some research might be in order. |
| Conrad | 16 Apr 2003 12:55 a.m. PST |
Pete Berry IS bad! Pete Berry is eeeeeeeevil! His miniatures are the fruits of the devil! Well they must be, since he persuaded me to buy ECW armies and flags and scenics and rulebooks from him when all I was interested in was WW2. Being serious, Pete has to be both artist and businessman - he gave up his "proper" job to go full time being a miniatures maker. However, even though he needs all the pennies he can get, he doesn't trade like a Wall Street broker on steroids, he maintains a gentlemany attitude towards his clientele. Customer service - GW take note! |
| Landorl | 16 Apr 2003 4:23 a.m. PST |
Well, if the discounts go, I go. I like the LOTR stuff, but WWII is my main game. I will not buy GW miniatures at the full price because it is more than any other miniatures I buy. They look great, but that isn't enough for me to waste my money. |
| Pohtonen | 16 Apr 2003 4:47 a.m. PST |
KillerPenguin, you are right about GW "strong arm" tactics on the little stores. I used to talk to a local gaming store about how abusive GW was to him and trying to get him not to sell their stuff at a discount. He still sales GW box sets at a 20% discount. Whether this is due to the internet sales, I'm not sure. I do know he get better sales at the discount so he makes up for the loss with volume. These are the main reason I stopped buy/playing GW games 4 years ago. I'm an old time player from the early 80s. I got sick of hearing this entire BS about the Evil Empire and them forcing me to buy new rule sets every few years. I started to spend my money on historical miniatures instead. I'll hit them where it hurts the most… in the wallet.
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| Only Warlock | 16 Apr 2003 5:54 a.m. PST |
IF a retailer pays GW for product to sell, they have every right in the world to sell that product at whatever rate they want to whomever they want in whatever manner they want so long as they do not abuse GW Copyrights in a manner not appropriate for the seller. This is pure crap. |
| Rogzombie | 16 Apr 2003 6:02 a.m. PST |
I'm afraid GW really doesnt care about the adult market anymore. The corp heads(IMO) have decided on a new marketing direction aimed at kids and on-the-mall-shopping spontaneous-purchases. They may even be TRYING to distance themselves from the mainstream gaming world. For in the mainstream and at independent webstores, people can see other products and buy them, hence taking a small percentage of business from them and worst of all, cluttering their beautiful conventions with blasphemous miniatures! I'm afraid this won't help the smaller companies by leaving a void. As GW is the biggest and baddest of the sort they take all the advertising with them that smaller companies were cashing in on. This is a big corporate move and can only help GW, but as most big corps usually expand until bankruptcy, this is probably where they are heading. I believe B&M is next. They are really trying to reform how people buy their products. When they are ready you will only be able to buy their stuff from their official stores and website. |
| Rogzombie | 16 Apr 2003 6:08 a.m. PST |
As far as I know, vendors such as GW can call the shots on how their product is marketed. When working in retail, I found out about how difficult cosmetic companies, as well as Ralph Lauren, etc are to deal with. They have very specific ways their product is sold and when and if it can be put on sale or bought with coupons. We ran into a problem where our coupons disclaimers took up more room than the coupon itself! Of course they cannot do anything about you selling the product as you want, but they will cut you off afterwards. This is really nothing new in the business world. |
| The Lost Soul | 16 Apr 2003 6:20 a.m. PST |
The real story here is that GW’s North American profits continue to suffer. Look at their financial reports. GW has continued to struggle in the North American market, with profit growth being stuck in single digits for over a year. This is well short of expectations, so GW has decided to try other ways to wring money out of it customers. Will it work? Hard to say. Around 2/3 of GW sales over here come from independent retailers. GW simply doesn’t have the capital to replace those stores with their own company shacks. And there is growing competition. I-kore’s VOID is a pretty neat game and if they can avoid the mistakes of other companies (i.e. getting too big too fast) they can start to chip away at the GW edifice. That’s really the key. GW isn’t Mircosoft, it’s closer to TSR before the fall. TSR owned the role-playing genre and had utter dominance of that market, yet through bad decisions it managed to nearly destroy itself. GW seems to be following a similar path. It is playing around with card games, movie projects and trying to use monopoly pricing. Like TSR, its pockets simply aren’t deep enough to take a sustained hit. I like WHFB’s new version and think the LoTR figures are great. But if GW makes it harder for me to get them, I’ll have to stop using both. One other point: ebay represents an interesting obstacle to GW’s pricing structure. It’s employees get a discount. Many abuse this and GW tries to keep tabs on it. But as the number of “GW Stores” increase, so will the number of people who want to make a quick buck by being a reseller. Wild prediction: at some point GW will try to get ebay to prohibit the selling of “boxed” or NIB GW merchandise. And then GW will self-destruct.
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nudspinespittle  | 16 Apr 2003 6:31 a.m. PST |
I just got confirmation from my GW supplier that he received the same notice and is waiting for the GW gestapo to call him. Sure, this is frustrating, but there is still one loop hole. They still allow mail order; how could they stop it? I'll just be typing up orders and emailing it to my supplier. No reason I can't continue my business relationship with my supplier and maybe even get a better discount (used to be 35% before 20% imposition), all out of the public-internet eye and under the nose of those GW bastiches. With their products no longer listed on websites at discounted prices, how will they know? I see no reason why others can't do this. |
| KillerPenguin | 16 Apr 2003 6:42 a.m. PST |
"I-kore’s VOID is a pretty neat game and if they can avoid the mistakes of other companies (i.e. getting too big too fast) they can start to chip away at the GW edifice.
they already did that when they screwed target games up when these guys at Ikore were in charge of it. not to sound like a cheerleader but Chronopia and Warzone are back,fully supported and with new stuff out too from Excelsior Entertainment.These are the games that started pushing back against GW the first time. Maybe now is the time for these guys to strike back a second. they could be contenders. You all have got to see the new Mishima figs coming out! They are sweeeeeeeet!Ill put my pom-pomms away now |
| deanoware | 16 Apr 2003 7:02 a.m. PST |
Well after sorting through all the posts and what I have been directed to online I have a couple of comments. 1. I can only take GW at their word for the time being that this is related to their IP rights and NOT discounting so I will ignore that aspect of this thread. As far as the legality of it is concerned a lot of manufacturers place limits and restrictions on how their products can be sold or even distributed. As an example, just recently some Super Kmarts closed in our area and when I asked about a lot of the electronic merchandise going on sale I was told it would be marked down to 20% but no more because the manufacturers somehow required Kmart to return it to them rather than sell it any lower than that ...and that's exactly what happened. One thing you have to realize about "most" laws is that it is possible to "contract" around a law so long as it does not violate public policy. So even though the law may prohibit price fixing it does may not prohibit a manufacturer contracting with his distributors to agree to return his product for credit before selling it below cost for example. 2. As for the IP rights I think it is important to clear up some misconceptions here and elsewhere on the Net. GW does have the right to restrict or even prohibit the use of "their" images. It does not have the right to or the power to limit or restrict what people do with their own images. So people who purchase and paint GW products and then sell them or place pictures of them online are free do so including such outlets as e-bay and cool mini or not. People do not have the right to scan images from GW's website or its boxes and use them online. If you want to put a picture of a Rhino next to your product you have to put that Rhino together and paint it and create your own background for it. This may also have something to do with doing away with Internet sales altogether since most retailers would eventually understand this distinction and simply list GW products with their own miniatures or vehicles pictured next to them. One concern GW could have about this is the varying degree of representations that would appear out there and somehow damage GW image (just picture a lot of online catalogs with unpainted or primed GW figures pictured beside them). 3. As to how this affects me directly, it doesn't. The little GW I buy I get from my local hobby shop at 20% off. |
| deanoware | 16 Apr 2003 7:16 a.m. PST |
Baron, I must disagree when you suggest GW is closer to TSR than Miscrosoft. TSR was a big fish in a very small pond - RPG. GW is vastly more diversified than TSR and one asset that GW has that TSR lacked is a tangible product, i.e. miniatures. TSR sold manuals, books and cards. A lot of which depended heavily on outside artists that TSR apparently treated very badly. If you buy a RPG book you can ONLY use that book to play that game (excluding the few of us who buy them purely for reference). However, a miniature figure can be purchased by a.) collectors, b.) painters, c.) gamers and d.) children (who know why kids buy what they buy). Everything else GW sells springs for its miniatures line: games, books, videos, artwork, etc. And if you are hoping for a TSR-like collapse don't hold your breath, I hear GW treats their sculptors very well. Even going so far as allowing them to market their own lines (Perry Twins) and put out their own alternate games (Warhammer Ancient Battles) while STILL working for GW. They may be 'evil' but their not stupid. And that's the only way you're going to slow down the GW train is to dry up their pool of highly talented and sought after sculptors. If the quality of their miniatures was to suffer noticeably the repercussions would be felt throughout their entire product line. |
| Waco Joe | 16 Apr 2003 7:17 a.m. PST |
Grassy Gnoll Theory (sic): GW tells everyone that this is coming down the pike in three months. Common reaction (after anger), hmm I better order everything I might want now before it is gone forever. GW gets a sudden infusion of cash six months before the Xmas rush. I wonder when they file their financials?? Come 7/15 GW announces that due to the volume of helpful feedback from its distributers and retailers they are suspending the ban on internet sales "for the time being". Then again I could be totally full of it. IP issues are usually handled with a "cease and desist" order rather than giving the offending parties 3 months to continue to violate their IP rights. All a retailer would have to do is remove the images and leave a text based catalog system. Surely I am not the only person to peruse Great Canadian Minis with GW's website open in another browser?
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| cyclan | 16 Apr 2003 8:02 a.m. PST |
Piss on lawyers. Piss on marketing __________. |
| The Lost Soul | 16 Apr 2003 9:48 a.m. PST |
Deanoware, I must disagree. Microsoft can lose more money in a quarter than GW has ever made and take the loss in stride. Yes, you can do a lot more with a mini than a book, but those minis also require much more work to be of any use. It is far more difficult to convince someone to buy paint, brushes, a lamp, glue and $100 or more worth of figures just to start playing a game than shell out $30 for a set of rules and some dice. My point is that GW runs close to the margins and doesn’t have a lot of room for error. Those company stores are key sources of profit, but should sales drop off they will help pull GW under. Both were big fish in a little pond, but TSR had much larger exposure and widespread public knowledge. Outside of the miniatures community, GW doesn’t exist. It has lowered the target age for its demographic and needs a high rate of repeat and new business to remain viable. Should the core begin to fatigue or switch to a different system, GW’s ability to attract new people—especially given its high price structure—is limited. And no, I’m not “hoping” for a collapse. As I said before, I like WHFB and liked the previous incarnation of 40k. I simply don’t think the way the business is being run is healthy for the hobby or GW itself.
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| The Lost Soul | 16 Apr 2003 9:50 a.m. PST |
I would like to add that turning on the fan base and other retailers is something TSR did back in the day. GW is starting to eat its own. Not a good sign. |
| GarnhamGhast | 16 Apr 2003 12:09 p.m. PST |
Rogcollectibles- GW has always distanced itself from the mainstream, in fact I would say actively tried to deny its existence. The "Games Workshop Hobby?" Yeah right! That hobby seems to involve paying through the nose and getting crapped on regularly. Bite the bullet and wean yourselves off them guys. Can anyone say they're really surprised by this? The thing that leaves the worst taste is the arrogance of them. |
| Crusoe the Painter | 16 Apr 2003 1:18 p.m. PST |
The US has anti-trust and pricing laws too. And they have been applied to GW in the past. Contracts between sellers and retailers, on discounts, etc, are on shifting and changing ground in the US. Some view this as accepted practices ( Do X, and we'll sell it to you cheaper so you have better margins ) others view it as price fixing. Several lawsuits have been filed and won over similair measures in the US. CD price fixing among them, plus Ram chips. The question is, when does a contract on terms of trade become a tool of monopolization? The wholesale ban on internet sales seems very onerous. This site has info on the points of US law.
link -Daniel |
 javelin98 | 16 Apr 2003 1:39 p.m. PST |
Of course, they can't stop the secondary/aftermarket. "Yes, this used, old, beat up (but strangely never opened) box o' Beakies can be yours..." |
| GRENADIER1 | 16 Apr 2003 1:55 p.m. PST |
I have no problem with GW protecting its IP or even with GW dictating terms to its retailers. I just think that you guys who still buy GW products are the real cause of this. GW will do whatever you guys put up with. If you take this in stride and just keep buying GW crap then the trolls at GW will say " hey they will take anything we give them" and more crap will come down the pipe! GW has the right to market and sell and control their product anyway they see fit but YOU have the right to throw it back in their face and tell them to "shove it"!!GW does not have a right to manipulate the market YOU are the market you must enjoy being manipulated!! |
| duncanh | 16 Apr 2003 2:17 p.m. PST |
Long thread, good points made and well presented. I am printing it out to digest it all. If half of what I've read is true then GW should be in trouble from a legal challenge. |
| Mark Wals | 16 Apr 2003 2:22 p.m. PST |
but Grenadier1 without GW there's no hobby!What's a body to do, I mean they INVENTED wargaming. THere's NOTHING else. Forget about HG Wells, Jack Scruby,Paddy Griffith, Donald Featherstone, Peter Gilder,Dave Alsop and so many others that pioneered the hobby. I look forward to the day GW charges $20.00 for a figure and I'll Say "Please sir,may I have another"! SIEG GW!!
The GW SS don't seem to get it,they control the market. But they're to busy defending someone financially sodomizing them to see what's going on. Thank goodness for hitoricals. |
| Thane Morgan | 16 Apr 2003 2:35 p.m. PST |
And alternative theory on the motivations - this is something I saw as being potentially bad for their market even back when I liked GW games (hadn't played any others *shrug*). It is commonly accepted and self admitted that their market shifted towards the 14-16 year old market, depending on the "whine factor" as it was known in those days for middle-upper class kids to extract vast sums of money from their parents. The fact that these kids would quickly tire of the relatively long attention spans required by miniature gaming wasn't seen as a problem, because there would always be a new set of 14-16 year olds to buy the games. In fact stores were told by GW to boot their 20+ year olds so as not to intimidate the teens and their parents. the flaw in this plan is the internet, especially places like bartertown and e-bay. More and more kids became saavy to what they could resell their figures for once they got tired of the game, and did so. This resulted in more new players NOT buying $500 of stuff from retailers to get into the "hobby", but instead they could spend $200-$300 on used stuff; and sometimes much less. In these cases, the high costs of retail GW figs reinforces the the desire both to sell figures and to buy them more cheaply online. I would love to see real numbers on how this has played out - how many e-bay Gw sales have been made in each of the past 5 years. I know players who have armies that have been owned by up to 3 previous owners. A friend of mine building a 25mm orc army was able to get what he wanted online for less than a third of what a new army would cost. If someone has an inclination, it would also be interesting to know how many armies worth of figures one could get on e-bay at a given time. The other part is to eliminate competition for online ordering. GW makes a lot of effort to get people to order online and mail order, because that maximizes their profits and lowers traffic through independant stores where people might get exposed to non-GW games. I don't know if it is still true, but several years ago a White Dwarf ad campaign ran which described how Online and mail order direct allowed customers to avoid all the "aggrevations" of game stores. This is just a continuation of that effort to pull customers away from normal retail operations. One wonders why their game systems have increasingly been dumbed down while their marketing increasingly becomes more clever. Maybe they should move their marketing people into the design jobs. |
| Mark Wals | 16 Apr 2003 2:36 p.m. PST |
That last word of the last stence should read "historicals" not hitoricals. A bit to much ranting about GWazis I guess. |
| Pontifex | 16 Apr 2003 2:37 p.m. PST |
Grenadier1, I dare say that very few, if any, of the people really responsible for this are reading TMP - unless some of you reading the forums are pre-teen Brits with language skills well beyond your years. This whole move suggests two possibilities - The End-of-year money grab that Cybrarian suggests (which sounds like a move befitting a company more interested in "business" than in pleasing customers, or a company that is so desperate for business that it is curling up like an injured spider, hoping that the big nasty internet customers stealing all "their" money will go away. This is typical corporate crap, and behavior more fitting to adolescent crybabies than multinational corporations - trying to take their ball and go home. This isn't about their IP, and they know it. I'll even go so far as to take the step that some of you won't - I DO hope they take a monstrous, palpable hit from this. Six years ago, the loss of GW products would paralyze the industry, but now, the competition has become too good at what they do for most of us to REALLY miss GW if they go the way of TSR. The only people I feel sorry for are the hardworking independent retailers out there whose livelihoods are being threatened, temporarily or otherwise, by this move. I'd say that GW should be ashamed of themselves, but "GW" and "shame" aren't exactly synonyms. As for targeting the under-12 market - to call that a red herring is to understate the case. Kids don't buy off the internet because they have neither checks, credit cards nr patience to wait for mail order. However, if GW thinks that the American market isn't important enough, I suggest they take some lessons in geography, particularly population...
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| Thane Morgan | 16 Apr 2003 4:56 p.m. PST |
Kids don't buy anything, Pontifex. They don't have jobs. Parents buy kids things. And no one every claimed teh "under-12" crowd was the target, but the 14-16 crowd has been self admitted by GW spokespeople and reps. The only incentive needed for a teen to find a cheaper source is "No, Johnny, I'm not buying you a $50 plastic tank". |
| Inmate 928829 | 17 Apr 2003 12:52 a.m. PST |
One thing I have _never_ understood from these types is: why stop a fansite or store from using their (GW, whoever) image to promote their (again, GW) product? Exposure is good. More exposure is more good, er, uh, better. If I were running GW, I'd rather have a miniature that was assembled and painted by a member of the 'Eavy Metal team than by some amateur (yes, there are some god-like amateurs out there ... but, most of us, being amateur, are not as good as a pro). James |
| Goldwyrm | 17 Apr 2003 4:57 a.m. PST |
I spoke about the GW internet sales policy with an owner of a "brick and mortar" store I visited last night. Roughly half his stock is GW. He was contacted directly by GW about this move. He was actually happy with the GW policy change and had an issue with being undercut by internet stores without the overhead costs he carries. I don't really care for GW very much. I've stopped playing GW games and have purchased only a fraction of what I used to (just LoTR box sets before the price increases). I'm just looking at this more objectively since I first read this thread. We may be skewed in our viewpoint here because this is an internet discussion board with many internet retailers and consumers as participants. The GW policy shift is bad for one group of retailers I know but may be embraced favorably by another group of retailers I know. If you ask the "brick and mortar" guys, they may say GW made the right ethical decision. Time will tell if it is the correct business decision. |
| The Lost Soul | 17 Apr 2003 5:59 a.m. PST |
Goldwyrm, certainly there are winners and losers. However, how does this affect brick and mortar stores that also use the internet? Look, no one faults Old Glory for preferring to deal direct with stores and refusing internet sales. They want to help their distributors and retailers. It’s simply good business relations. GW isn’t like that, as any observer can tell you. GW’s web site regularly has “bargain basement” sales—right there you have internet competition. GW is basically saying “if you buy online, buy from us.” Furthermore, GW may not like discounts at independent retailers, but it is quite fond of them in its OWN stores. Hey, it’s a free market and they can do what they want, but let us have no illusions: if GW could wipe out the indy retailers and sell direct, it would. The same cannot be said of most (if not all) other miniatures companies. Will it work? Hard to say. But other games are trying to make inroads into the GW racket. Warzone and VOID are up there. VOID is putting out its first boxed set soon and has even hired some of GW’s artists. If GW starts to slide, the indy retailers may be well advised to diversify. Personally, I like WHFB v6.0, even if I use Old Glory figures to play it. But for my sci-fi fix, it's VOID for me. |
| Thane Morgan | 17 Apr 2003 9:40 a.m. PST |
"Hey, it’s a free market and they can do what they want, but let us have no illusions: if GW could wipe out the indy retailers and sell direct, it would. The same cannot be said of most (if not all) other miniatures companies." For the record, Thane's Games would in fact wipe out the rest of the industry if it could. I would also plunder all of the minis for my own personal collection, enslave the menfolk to paint them and have my way with the industry's women. However, my wife says "my way" with the women would be limited to having them cook and clean for us... |
| Rogzombie | 17 Apr 2003 3:35 p.m. PST |
Anyone heard anything else, semi-official or whatever, on this subject? |
| Rogzombie | 18 Apr 2003 6:52 a.m. PST |
There's a new rumor going around that the GW big shots in the UK are concerned about this move and are crossing the drink to discuss it. |
| Deane P Goodwin | 18 Apr 2003 7:30 p.m. PST |
"Mandating that webstores cannot sell GW products is only being done because they are losing money." This is absolutely not true. As a retailer I pay the same rate for GW product as every other retailer in the US pays. The vehicle by which I chose to sell it, and the price I charge has NO effect whatsoever on this wholesale price. The only thing GW is NOT getting is the full retail price of this product.They don't get full retail from the corner gamestore either. |
