| Mr Elmo | 15 Apr 2003 1:00 p.m. PST |
This message came from another forum. The original message can be found here: link From Neal at The Warstore: Due to a flood of emails requesting verification I have decided to make the following statement: I did receive a call yesterday from a Games Workshop V.P. (ie. very official source). Below is the facts of the call as I saw them, at this time you are certainly free to draw your own conclusions. The call was a polite courtesy call to let me know in person that a letter was going out to all retailers describing a change in Games Workshop's 'Terms of Trade'. According to them, Games Workshop is disturbed by the
infringement of copyrights on their intellectual property so rampant on the internet. Therefore to protect their IP GW will be closing the internet to all uses of their intellectual property except for a handful of permitted
images. Also effective July 15th, no stores besides their own will be permitted to sell GW products on the internet. The caller was adamant that this has nothing to do with the discount levels. He gave me a number to call with further questions and said I had to decide to comply or that I had
90 days to liquidate my GW inventory. Others who received the call were informed of a GW buyout plan if they wanted to liquidate their inventory back to GW. I was rather shocked at the time and did not ask all of the questions I should have, accordingly I will be calling GW again today. Mail Order is 'permitted', tho I am not sure what that means. Does that mean I can take phone orders only? Can I list products for sale in a simple sentence
format? Are all shopping carts now unacceptable or just ones with pictures and GW sales copy? I am leaving my own conclusions out of this for a moment but I will say this. It is my opinion that if permitted this will affect every one of the manufacturers in our industry. Wiz Kids has often crusaded against internet
discounting, WOTC has railed against it as well. If GW closes down the internet channel, I believe that every manufacturer in this industry will be pressured to do as GW has done or they will be seen by independent stores as
'unsupportive of the hobby'. This decision also seems to be entirely without legal precedent, and has far reaching implications FOR EVERY BUSINESS SELLING EVERY PRODUCT ON THE NET. Can a company shut down a legitimate mode of commerce in the United States? This decision is far bigger than the Wargaming Hobby, it has serious ramifications. I will be talking to GW today to get further details on exactly how they want this to work. Rest assured we are very concerned with the situation and will post more details as they come available. Thank you very much for your kind support.
Neal Catapano
TheWarStore.com |
| reddrabs | 15 Apr 2003 1:29 p.m. PST |
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| cubeblue | 15 Apr 2003 1:31 p.m. PST |
Wow, I was curious if Neal was going to say anything about this. It was the first thing I thought about when I read this post on coolminiornot.com. I didn't think it was real, but I suppose it must be. Man. Wow. Ok this is just a shock too much for me. I do so much of my buying online. How about the people who run these businesses, this is incredible. I wonder how serious or far reaching this actually goes. I mean, what's the difference between mail order and internet sales anyways? One is just a more convenient form of the other. There's got to be something seriously illegal about this. I'm not a GW hater by any means, and I really like the LotR range they are producing, but this is just about enough to get me to totally convert entirely to something else and never look back at GW again. |
| Dave Crowell | 15 Apr 2003 1:31 p.m. PST |
I do not see the ramifications as being "shutting down a legitimate mode of commerce". GW is quite rightly defending their intellectual propertuy rights. The Net culture may not like IP laws, but they do exist. It seems that GW's new policy will be in harmony with that of JK Rowling and Anne McAffery who also take a dim view of other people using their IP on the net. Copyright infringement is theft. It steals from teh very people who give us our great hobby, and the books we read, etc. If we keep it up they will simply stop producing. I can't see why you are complaing that GW wants you to stop using their images, which they own, with out their permission. This is their right. All they are asking is that people obey the law. GW obviously feels that their images can boost internet sales, and they want to be the ones to reap the profits. The simple fact is that most of GW's images are Trade Marked and Copyrighted by GW and using them without their permision is illegal. GW also has the right to decide to whom and how they will sell their products. Is Pete Berry of Baccus Miniatures a threat to the Hobby because he only sells from his website? That's right Baccus miniatures are not available at retail or from internet discounters. GW is not trying to shut down Net commerce, just insisting that Net-retailers obey the law. |
| jadedragon | 15 Apr 2003 1:34 p.m. PST |
Just more proof that GW is owned and operated by Microsoft. |
| Thomas Whitten | 15 Apr 2003 1:42 p.m. PST |
I am not going to comment on their IP policy but if you disagree with GW's policy to disallow others to sell their product over the internet drop them a line at: uscustserve@gw.com or 1-800-394-4237 |
| Henrix | 15 Apr 2003 1:49 p.m. PST |
But isn't this just about using their pictures?
If you sell their minis with pictures you have taken of them, is not that fair use? I am fairly certain that would be the case in Sweden.
(Although if GW decided they did not want to sell directly to your store it would cause problems.) As to why Grimes Orkshop does not want everybody to spread their promotion material is beyond me! |
| cubeblue | 15 Apr 2003 2:00 p.m. PST |
Well certainly I think IP should be protected and that people shouldn't be ripping off pictures rampantly even if it's to promote sales of GW products. That's pretty lame in general, but my problem is that it appeared, at least from my first reading, that they are just arbitrarily stopping all internet businesses from selling their products. Anyways I'm sure there will be more information about this divulged soon enough. It just sounds like the perfect excuse to cut off the internet retailers who offer their products at such huge discounts. |
| FleshEater | 15 Apr 2003 2:06 p.m. PST |
"It just sounds like the perfect excuse to cut off the internet retailers who offer their products at such huge discounts."
-Cubeblue Yup, You took the words right out of my mouth, next is using their inside information to start putting GW stores right next to "successful" brick and mortar stores. The GW hobby is a joke. it is the wargaming hobby. The worst thing is that they are going to still keep their "own" online mail order open, using the excuse that it is for bitz and for people that do not live near a brick and mortar. Is everything they are doing illegal, perhaps not, but is it ethical? Nope. I am so done with them. Their are a hell of a lot more games out there to play with better miniatures, and bettter priced games.
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| cubeblue | 15 Apr 2003 2:06 p.m. PST |
Here we go: "Also effective July 15th, no stores besides their own will be permitted to sell GW products on the internet. The caller was adamant that this has nothing to do with the discount levels. He gave me a number to call with further questions and said I had to decide to comply or that I had 90 days to liquidate my GW inventory. Others who received the call were informed of a GW buyout plan if they wanted to liquidate their inventory back to GW." That's the part I take issue with. Pretty lousy. And as far as comparing GW to Baccus, well, I'm can't rightly follow the logic that would provoke such a comparison. |
Dr Mathias  | 15 Apr 2003 2:11 p.m. PST |
Prohibiting the use of images because of IP violation is one thing. I understand that. However, GW for several years has shut down sites that were PROMOTING their products, not even selling it, i.e. fansites. I think that is unwise. Mandating that webstores cannot sell GW products is only being done because they are losing money. I don't even enjoy GW games anymore. I guess I don't really care how much money they are going to lose. |
| Rogzombie | 15 Apr 2003 2:12 p.m. PST |
I really hope this is just an 'isolated incident' or a gung ho employee mouthing off about things they dont know. To totally cut off these guys who rely on this stuff for their businesses is abominable, even for GW. I know for one thing that the warstore shouldnt be held accountable for misrepresenting IP. They have a first class operation. Of course they have the rights to do whatever they want, but the more heavy handed they get the more people are going to boycott them or just plain forget about them. |
| Dave Crowell | 15 Apr 2003 2:17 p.m. PST |
I agree that this is a lousy thing for GW to do, but GW has never been exactly supportive of small retailers. If they thought they could get by being the sole supplier of their products I am sure they would. I gave up buying GW products several years ago when I decided that I didn't like the costs of being in the GW "hobby", little things like constantly changing rulesets, ever changing miniatures and background, a serious "money wins the game" factor, many of teh same reasons I became disenchanted with Magic and Clix and other collectable games actually. As for my comparison if you will of GW and Baccus, I meant only that Pete is his own sole supplier, the same situation that GW seems to be trying for. and raised the question of does this make Pete inherently "bad"? I do feel sorry for the small businesses that will likely lose business as a result of GW's new policy. But if you chose to lie down with a scorpion, well that's its nature.... GW has alienated a large portion of the gaming market, it will be interesting to see if this move hurts or helps them in the long run. My money is on the loss of exposure here and on Cool Mini or Not etc, hurting their exposure in the long run, just as their policies keeping them out of small shops are bound to hurt. Not evry town is large enough to support a GW supercenter, perhaps they will buy Wal*Mart next.... I actually bought most of my GW stuff from GW mail order as I did not have net access and did not live near a brick and mortar shop that carried GW. |
| The Gonk | 15 Apr 2003 2:23 p.m. PST |
:: ...or just plain forget about them. One has to wonder what the straw will be that will break the backs of GW fanboys. I thought things were outrageous when I stopped buying from them years and years ago, yet they've only grown in the time since. |
| Lukash | 15 Apr 2003 2:27 p.m. PST |
Actually I hope its a good thing for local hobby stores. People should really buy local even though the on-line discounts are huge. I do buy on-line, but I try to buy all GW stuff local if I can. Of course, you may not have a local store which is another problem. This is interesting. |
| Rogzombie | 15 Apr 2003 2:36 p.m. PST |
I agree about supporting the local shops. I have a buddy who has a shop in town here and I buy the stuff off him almost exclusively. I guess alot of us really don't want to see the camel with the caved in back walking around because of sentimental reasons about how GW used to be. But it seems that the camel is turning into an elephant!
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| parrot1500 | 15 Apr 2003 2:43 p.m. PST |
Wow. Look, if they can do this (and why not? Right of free association, seller is in charge of his product, etc.), it would be amazingly scummy to the legitimate and very cool online retailers. Part of me hopes they do this and are real serious no-fooling jerks about it, to the extent of threatening all kinds of little guys, etc. about having references to their games online. I think that would hurt their sales a LOT. Part of me just wants a nap. You know what? It's GW. They do unethical things and get away with it cause we're addicted monkeyboys. But if I have to pay retail for GW, it'll be a cold day in heck before I buy stuff, seriously. |
| cubeblue | 15 Apr 2003 2:44 p.m. PST |
As for Pete, of course he's not 'bad'. I think we probably agree, I just didn't understand what you were implying with your first post. I don't think there's anything wrong with selling your own products and not farming any of it out to retailers. As you said, that's the company's right and perogative. What I don't like is that after so many online retailers have built their business around GW, and GW may be feeling a pinch, they are just going to hammer them out of the way. Especially since they are expressing that this is for IP reasons, which is a total facade. And sure, you lay down with scorpions.. but, I still don't like it. I think that GW just sees the fact that other manufacturers are gaining a foothold, Rackham, Reaper, for example (out of many others that could be named), and even Vallejo on the paint front. The click games probably hurt them too (why else would they be coming out with a LotR click game later this year?) I think GW's going to profit quite a bit from this move. People are definitely going to be supporting their brick and mortar stores more, when it comes to GW stuff at least, and GW stores will be stronger. I think a number of people may gravitate away from GW on this, likely going to other companies for their fix though, but not nearly enough to put a dent in the profits GW will see from this. I bought GW's stuff mainly because the online discounter I buy from makes the cost feasible. |
| blueduck | 15 Apr 2003 2:54 p.m. PST |
It’s not a question of maintaining "intellectual property." It’s the discounts. I am in a town with gaming store that does a huge GW business, and the owner has been given threats, both veiled and not so veiled, about discounting within his own store. These independent stores are not a franchise. Once they buy the product, if they want to sell them on the net or for a discount that should be their business. GW could quit selling to retailers not owned by them like Baccus, as was suggested, but they won't. There are lots of places (and money to be made by GW) that a GW stand alone store wouldn't make it and they know it. If they are going to sell to retailers because they do not want to, can't or won't make profit by selling exclusively through their own auspices, then they can't complain. It’s either all or nothing. |
| Greenfield Games | 15 Apr 2003 3:09 p.m. PST |
Blueduck, Why does this local retailer even feel that he needs to discount GW's product? Because of the rampant bargain basement atmosphere created by online discounters. If those are gone then your retailer can charge full price, make more money, and become more successful... Food for thought. - Jay |
| Anton888 | 15 Apr 2003 3:38 p.m. PST |
Griffon Games spouted the following: "Why does this local retailer even feel that he needs to discount GW's product? Because of the rampant bargain basement atmosphere created by online discounters." Or maybe because he increases his overall sales by discounting! Our FLGS discounts GW by 10%, and since he has gone that route, sales have increased an overall 26%. GW's prices are outrageous, and many retailers have turned to discounting in store to counter the price hikes, and keep the customer base going. But since you already have all the answers......
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| ming31 | 15 Apr 2003 3:54 p.m. PST |
This sounds like heavy game news ...Will GW and the Huckleberry Hive mind send TMP an "Official News Release" explaining this? Or will we rant and rave on this board, based on what a store remembers from a phone conversation. We as the "game buying public" have a right to know about this decision so that we can make our decision based on facts. I vote with my miniature and gaming dollars, as we all should. ...SO GW ...WHAT IS THE FACT ON INTERNET SALES ? WE THE TMP GAMING PUBLIC WANT TO KNOW! |
| GRENADIER1 | 15 Apr 2003 3:54 p.m. PST |
Market dictates price those dealers who sell at a discount online are driving the price down in the brick and mortar stores. Why is this seen as a bad thing by folks on this board? I know why GW hates it they have these GW only stores that cant compete on price and they are losing cash. I think they are changing the terms of agreements they made with their retail dealers. They want to now come back and say "if you buy our product you can not offer it at a lower price" This is artificial inflation of the market. I think they can say this and pull the product from any retailer who violates this agreement but I cant see how this helps them. Fact is their product cost to much if you fanboys would quit paying the price would come back to the real world and maybe GW would learn its leason.
Dont strongarm your customers!!! |
| Greenfield Games | 15 Apr 2003 3:58 p.m. PST |
:GW's prices are outrageous, and many retailers have turned
:to discounting in store to counter the price hikes, and
:keep the customer base going. You aren't going to want to hear this, but I'll say it anyway. Retailers don't mind high prices. High prices mean greater profit. Retailers turn to discounting ONLY when they believe it is the only way to compete. We'd all be much happier making money. This whole thing is only an issue at all because GW sells so well, and that's because you all buy so much of it. If you didn't then nobody would care one way or the other. You know what happens to sales of GW product every time they have a price increase? Nothing. They continue to sell the same as the days and weeks before. So what are customers telling them? "Your product is worth what your charging." In any case, I don't claim to have all of the answers. I am merely providing an alternate viewpoint that is unlikely to get heard amongst all of the shouting, hairpulling, and gnashing of teeth.
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| Greenfield Games | 15 Apr 2003 4:01 p.m. PST |
Oh, and BTW for anybody who still doesn't think that this is actually happening just go check New Wave's forum. They've already stated that they got the phonecall and that unless things change they will be pulling GW from their catalog in July. They have no reason to lie. |
| Mark Wals | 15 Apr 2003 4:10 p.m. PST |
Hry Neal, why not branch into more historicals, you've made a good start with Battle Honors. You might see more bussiness than a nearly pure fantsy orientation. |
| LeiFeng | 15 Apr 2003 4:11 p.m. PST |
Just a thought, wonder if GW are thinking of going into the franchise business, and if they do, would you buy a franchise? |
| Rattrap1 | 15 Apr 2003 4:58 p.m. PST |
Well, their changes make no difference to me personally. What little LotR stuff I buy, I get from my local shop which hands out $5 coupons on purchases over $25. It's not discounting, nothing anyone can do about it. And as for selling online, all those retailers could simply turn to ebay or any auction site. It's not the same exposure as a website and not as convenient, but a Dutch auction of products discounted at whatever percentage still seems doable. You have to deal with ebays fees of course, but if someone wants to buy or sell online, there is always a way. Operator 5 |
| altfritz | 15 Apr 2003 5:00 p.m. PST |
So stop using GW's images. Everyone knows what GW's product looks like anyway. How does that prevent you selling their product online? |
| Scurvy | 15 Apr 2003 5:03 p.m. PST |
Here is the dirt on consumer law re. Australia. This is direct from the lads at the ACCC (Australian competition and Consumer Comission). It is NOT illegal under aussie law for GW to refuse to trade to net retailers. GW has the right to trade with whom they choose and depending on their sales contract they can tightly control the way their product can be sold.......... BUT TELLING A RETAILER THEY CANNOT SELL A PRODUCT BELOW A CERTAIN PRICE IS ILLEGAL! They can tell you a MAXIMUM price you can sell their product at but cant specify the MINIMUM price their goods must be traded at. IF THERE ARE ANY AUSTRALIAN RETAILERS THAT HAVE BEEN TOLD THEY CAN ONLY DISCOUNT PRICES BY X% LESS THAN RRP PLEASE CONTACT THE ACCC ON 1300 302 502 AS THEY ARE KEEN TO INVESTIGATE THIS TRADING ASPECT OF GW. it is of course confidential and all info given is protected by the privacy act of 1988 as a side note fines of 6 figure amounts, Enforced discounting of product and even gaol terms are all tools of the ACCC's trade. Think trade police and you have got them in a nutshell. Well I hope that brightened your day. |
| Scurvy | 15 Apr 2003 5:06 p.m. PST |
as a side note dont you Yanks and Poms have a Consumer protection department like this? If so give them a ring and find out what the law in your neck of the woods is re this.
I for one would be very interested to find out.
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| wildwolf45 | 15 Apr 2003 5:27 p.m. PST |
It's a good idea Scurvy, but at least here in the US, the message is not "don't discount or we won't sell to you", it's "we will not sell to you at all". As a side, they have the right to refuse to sell directly to you if you discount, but if you can get GW merchandise from another distributor, then they can't touch you. At least that's the story in the US. |
| Greenfield Games | 15 Apr 2003 5:28 p.m. PST |
:::TELLING A RETAILER THEY CANNOT SELL A PRODUCT BELOW A CERTAIN PRICE IS ILLEGAL!::: You seem to be missing the point. GW is not telling anybody what they can sell their games for (at this time). They are simply telling everybody that if they want to continue selling their games they cannot do it over the internet. |
| Rogzombie | 15 Apr 2003 5:43 p.m. PST |
I wonder if they will prohibit Ebay sales as well? |
| Privateer4hire | 15 Apr 2003 6:20 p.m. PST |
Rog, Let them try to catch all the marbles on that e-bay sales thing:) I can see the code words now as players learn the seamy netherlanguage associated with "discount" minis purchases. Psssst. Got any verdant savages? Daron |
 McKinstry  | 15 Apr 2003 6:41 p.m. PST |
I have no opinion as to whether this is a good or bad business decision from GW's point of view but time will tell. Will their sales decline as a result of an increased price sensitivity or offended consumers or will increased margins offset any volume losses? Remains to be seen but I would guess they have studied the issue and have made a rational choice that this policy will maximize perceived profits in a legal fashion. I am confused by terms like unethical, unfair or exorbitant pricing. In a straightforward capitalist economy there is no such thing as unfair, unethical or god forbid, over priced. Unless in violation of specific statute (and I presume they can afford decent attorneys ), they are free to pursue maximum profits for their share holders and to the extent they can crush competition, dominate a market or control margins (again assuming statutory legality), more power to them (or anyone else - Microsoft and Walmart are examples of great firms). Capitalism is certainly economic Darwinism at its most basic level. If this is a good idea, GW will be able to pull it off to their advantage because their product is perceived as a good worth extra cost or effort. If they have misjudged the market or their products appeal, they will lose sales and margin and have to try a different tact. Neither is good or evil, it is just business and attemting to ascribe moral values to simple sales, profit and loss decisions is naive at best. |
| joeygman | 15 Apr 2003 6:46 p.m. PST |
alright I am a store; I buy GW products and then take a picture of that Box/product and place it on the internet;ands GW puts me in Jail? hum, I buy a car and then sell it on the inter net take pictrures and such and then Ford places me in jail?-Not! GW I think you are going to go broke on this one; or at least loose any court cases on this one. |
| wildwolf45 | 15 Apr 2003 6:56 p.m. PST |
joeygman- I don't think the problem was people photographing boxes and putting them up. It seems more likely that they are trying to get people to stop cutting and pasting pictures from the GW site (a lot of webstores and eBay auctions do that) and using them to sell stuff from the other person's webstore. |
| WagesofSin | 15 Apr 2003 6:59 p.m. PST |
link
Thats the site of a good online retailer I go to. Seems hes got the problem too, just read his message.
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| WagesofSin | 15 Apr 2003 7:18 p.m. PST |
Also, on the site I listed above, Kirby(the owner) says that GW *REQUIRES* you to discount at the 20% minimum. |
| Mostly Harmless | 15 Apr 2003 7:26 p.m. PST |
The IP and pricing issues are both related. For large corporations brand image can be as or more important to sales than product quality or price. An example of this from the company I work for goes like this - Company A, and old and well-respected company, produces a light bulb. A retailer sells that light with the logo and packaging of Company A for $1.50. The same retailer also sells that same light bulb as a generic brand for $1.00. Guess which light bulb sells more? The one with the Company A logo that is $1.50. Not just a little - a lot. My guess is that Games Workshop has deemed that the importance of their brand image is such that they do not want billy-bob's cut and paste HTML service to be presenting the GW image to the world (no offense to WarWeb, a first class site IMHO). Try pulling that with Coke, Sony or Microsoft and see how long it takes for a team of chainsaw wielding Harvard lawyers to descend upon you. You may not like it but GW has become the Coke of the wargaming world. Pricing is closely related to image in that it is used position and differentiates a product in its market. Again, my guess is that GW dislikes discounting because its market is perceived as high cost, high quality and it does not want retailers changing that. Regardless, all corporations take pricing very seriously to the extent that they often try to control who sells their product and how. It is unpleasant to think that a company that makes cool products that you enjoy can be so crummy to people that are loyal retailers. But the fact is that all large, publicly held corporations operate in this cold and impersonal fashion. Ultimately they must answer to the most unforgiving and relentless of masters - stockholders. Think about that the next time you check on your 401k. PS - Buy the generic light bulbs...they're just as good!
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| Mackie | 15 Apr 2003 7:36 p.m. PST |
Its time to wake up our brothers and sisters that are still stuck in the GW hobby like I was and show them other games and minis. |
| McKinstry | 15 Apr 2003 7:42 p.m. PST |
Very well said Wages of Sin. |
| Scurvy | 15 Apr 2003 7:42 p.m. PST |
Griffon this post's topic wasnt addressing the discount issue I will be the first to admit. If you read many of the previous GW posts it is an issue that comes up time and time again. I thought seeing this post is is on GW's market policies I considered it wouldnt hurt to mention that aspect of consumer law too. Here is an example of it being raised in this post. Blueduck-It’s not a question of maintaining "intellectual property." It’s the discounts. I am in a town with gaming store that does a huge GW business, and the owner has been given threats, both veiled and not so veiled, about discounting within his own store. now addressing wildwolf, If they stop selling to a store that discounts their product heavily and the store owner suspects it was because of the discounts they were offering. The store owner (if in australia) would be well advised to ring the ACCC as it will do an investigation into that claim. The ACCC has the power to seize records etc etc to get to the bottom of an issue. (I can remember when I worked there having to go through over 10,000 of company emails, internal memos etc etc to get to the bottom of a collusion claim. Its hard to deney it was collusion when we had emails from one director to another saying he didnt want to do it as his lawyers had advised him it was illegal and the other guy replying not to worry and they would get away with it.)
Basic point im making here is.....
we all know the reason they dont want online trading is cus of the discount prices a web store can offer. This is cutting business from their franchise's that GW has. If it was IP issues then they would have no problem with stores selling online as long as their IP images were not used. They are talking a blanket ban on online trading. If the ACCC found the reason for this was pricing related and this tactic was used to shut out those offering discount prices on their product they would take issue. But regardless we all know about GW's attitude to those who offer big discounts. In this country that practice is illegal. Why not post the info here so a store owner can register a complaint about it and have GW get the kick in the bum they well deserve.
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| Mackie | 15 Apr 2003 7:43 p.m. PST |
Hopefully this will give smaller companies a better foothold. |
| WagesofSin | 15 Apr 2003 7:51 p.m. PST |
Crap, I meant GW *REQUIRES* you to discount at a maximum of 20%, anything more and they'll get on your back. |
| Scurvy | 15 Apr 2003 7:54 p.m. PST |
figured that was what u ment to say wages
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| Dokter Q | 15 Apr 2003 8:05 p.m. PST |
I think I will stick to Reaper. At least they have a good sense of humor. |
| Gordon of TFP Games | 15 Apr 2003 8:39 p.m. PST |
Oh, how nice of GW. But they are only copying an experience I had with another games company. Mmmm, must be contagious. G |
| Turtle | 15 Apr 2003 8:40 p.m. PST |
I'm wondering at the nature of business. Sure, business is there to make money. But is there any way to avoid the cold money grubbing nature of all these larger companies? I'm sure there's a way to make a good deal of money without alienating everyone. |
's brother-in-law has been able to leave the hospital after his cancer operation.