"Waterloo" Topic

I remember 'Boney Was A Warrior' from my schooldays as well.

The British soldiers' reply is "Our Hatty!" (like 'Nosey', 'Hatty' was one of the rank-and-file's names for Wellington). (Officers often referred to him as 'The Beau', or after his elevation to a Duke, as 'The Peer')

Thanks R Mark Davies. That's what it sounded like to me, but I'd never heard that nickname before.

The long version -

It definitely did exist and famously had an early battle scene cut out -Quatre Bras I think, though I could be wrong about that.

I always like the way they had to stop filming to allow the Russian army to pass by to invade Czechovakia.

As for a US version, I don't think the film needs CGI to make it look like the battle between two great armies, the original did that already.

As for recasting – I'm sure I heard that an actor called Martin Wier was going to play Napoleon, lol.

I thought it was "our Wellsley", but then I'm just guessing. I'll have to watch it again soon, but it will still sound garbled.

The editing was atrocious, of course. You can tell that there were a couple of storylines that got snipped out. Captain Mercer gets highlighted a couple of times which suggests that there was more to that story; and there is British ranker with blond hair that they feature several times and he is shown laying died on the ground at the end. There would be no point in showing this scene unless the individual had some story line in the movie.

As for Ligny, one minute the French are crossing the border and the next minute we are looking at a clipped aftermath of the battle. Again, you can tell from the editing that there was much more to this scene.

I've talked to Todd Fisher (Napoleonic Alliance) about this movie several times and I know that he spent a lot of time trying to track down the "missing footage" through his vast contacts in Europe. He believes that it doesn't exist anymore. Since Fisher and Bowden are good friends, I would have thought that if Scott had the full version, Todd would have mentioned this to me. I do know that the version that was released in the UK and Europe was slightly longer than the version released in the US. A number of people who I've talked to in the UK indicate that their version also has many scenes clipped as well.

It is too bad, isn't it?

I would think that one day Hollywood will do another film about Napoleon, although it may not be Waterloo. Hollywood seems to like to focus on his love interests rather than the fact that this man dominated Europe for nearly 20 years.

What about Sharpe's Waterloo?

thanks for the info on Boney was a Warrior!

There has been many actor's over the years who has played Napoleon,more numerous than i can remember except for a few like Herbert Lom,Marlon Brando,Armand Assante and Charles Boyer(not sure about spelling) were some of them.

Ian Holm has played Napoleon a few times including Time Bandits and a PBS series called the many loves of Napoleon,i think it was called.

But for me Steiger is Napoleon and yes he might have been to emotional,but for me that's fine.

As for the length of Waterloo 5 1/2 hours sounds right because i've heard this from several people,including one who saw the premiere in London.

And he said that they took at least one intermission during the film.

And another good line in the film was between Napoleon and Ney,when refering to the Prussian's Napoleon said to Ney "But as far as you and I are concerned and the Army there on the moon".

Captain Gideon

Autos de fe "That movie was terribly inaccurate. He only used 20,000 extras. :)".

When you say it's terribly inaccurate please explain your views on this.

Also he only used 20,000 extras are you saying he should've used more?

You forgot to mention that those 20,000 extras were from the Red Army,who also contributed a third of the costs too.

And without the help of the Red Army the film would've been 3 times the cost it was.

And before i forget the name of the director of Waterloo and War & Peace was Sergei Bondarchuk.

Captain Gideon

Has anybody noticed that the Hogwarts dining hall set is similar to Waterloo Brussells ball set with the hanging candles and all.

Ever notice that whenever Boney or Wellington made a joke, their cringing yes-men laugh a little too hardily?

I am probably wrong but it has always sounded to me the response was " OUR Laddie"

Who's the boy with the hookie nose? Our laddie!

The handsome blonde kid in the ranks of the Inniskillings who is shown several times, pushes his way out of the square during the Cavalry attacks and goes into a tirade about " How can we do this to each other? Why, WHY , how can we do this to each other" Next time you see him he's face down in the mud dead .Another bit that is in my new DVD.
RAGNAR

The new Hollywood Napoleon?

Mel Gibson, no contest!

He's not as tall as he looks (5ft 9in) and around the right age. Well he's four years too old really but hey – make up and all that.

They could do all the dialogue in 19th Cent French, English and Prussian, including a Corsican accent for you know who.

And just think Napoleon would win and even if he didn't, we could have an extra two hours about him being chained up and starved to death by the British on a remote island in the Atlantic!

"R Mark Davies
I've often heard the story of the '5-hour Waterloo', but I'm sure it's a myth. Has anyone here actually seen evidence for the 'long version'?"

Yup. Sat through it when it was first released in the movies.
I was 10 years old.

Much more, and longer forming and breaking of square sequences. Cavalry attacks etc.

Could they do an alternative ending (or sequel!)? What would have happened if the french had won…

Er, Captain Gideon, that little ":)" mark is a smiley, intended to indicate that the sentence before it was written in jest.

YES!!!! On both. Hey – I am going to start a new thread on W&P. I have a question or two.

Larry

"Has anyone worked out what the soldiers are shouting in response to the calls of: 'Who's the man to leather the French?'; 'Who's the man to smack Boney's ****?' etc? It eludes me every time I watch the film."

I always thought they were saying 'Our Artie', as in short for Arthur (Wellesley).

I never saw the fabled 'long' version, but I remember seeing a 'making of' special on TV once (they used to do these little fillers when the prime-tmie movie ran short). It showed a remarkable scene of the French cavalry massing to attack. The camera pans over the ranks, which is impressive, then the sun comes out and reflects off all the breastplates, helmets and sabers. Quite awesome, at least for the young lad I was :). That scene certainly got chopped from all the versions I've seen.

I'm still not convinced… ALL the moments mentioned above were in my 2-hour video version back in the 80s… The blonde soldier of the 27th (Inniskillings) had a few scenes… The urging of the Emperor not to join the attack… La Bedoyere's explanation of Marmont's treachery… The scenes with the 'reviewing' of the armies, with the glinting sunlight… The long, drawn-out squares sequence (with aerial bits nicked from War & Peace!)… It's all there in the 120-minutes version! It does sound like the US version has hacked down to 90 minutes though.

Of course, there must have been DAYS of footage that ended up on the cutting-room floor, but was it ever pieced together into a cinematic version? I'm still not convinced that it ever was and if it was, nobody seems to have seen it.

Dug the video out the garage last night in excited anticipation to hear all these wonderful quotes. Fell asleep just after Napoleon decided he would not abdicate…

I'll try again tonight!

Additional to various among the comments so far: I've heard it said that, during the aeriel scene of the French cavalry attacks over the ridge, a square (at top right or top left) can be seen breaking, presumbaly in genuine panic at the prospect of thundering hooves &c, even although all the Extras know it's "only in jest" (makes you think about what the reality was like). Can anyone confirm this, or was it in War & Peace maybe; the 16-hour Russian four-volume one, not the Hollywood paperback?

Speaking of paperbacks and (film)editing, some years ago at a Bring&Buy I found the "book of the film" of Bonarchuk's "Waterloo", and remember another probable evidence of a longer Cut. Like the example of the youthful, blond Russian actor playing a sensitive soul among the British Infantry (?27th), I'm sure many among us also recall the two Grenadiers de le Garde who are seen during the advance from Grenoble to Paris ("There eez no way around".."Ze way ahead eez forward") and later during the final advance on the ridge (which was in a number of "square" formations, cf Macdonald at Wagram, not in column), and probably among the last stand of Cambronne's -heads as well. Well, they have similar vignettes in this paperback, as does Blonde Russki, and as does also a "General of Dragoons" who, I'm pretty sure, has two written scenes. In the former of these, he is seen having a brief liaison with a peasant girl, who gives him a sort of parting gift. In the latter, he leads a charge across a bridge, I think at Charleroi, when the officer entrusted with carrying it is too hesitant. The "general of dragoons" is killed leading the charge, and a little posy of flowers is described as blowing from his fingers; yes, the "parting gift" from the peasant girl. Who says subtlety is dead? Anyway, these touching moments aren't in any version of the film I've ever seen; but, like many of the lines and episodes we recall, they do occur in the "B of the F".

Vive L'Empereur!

Oh, yes: re. actors (now) being Boney; I recall seeing one about ten years back, in a minor role in some American TV cop show (that's precise, eh?), who would have done. Any ideas? With regard to previous examples, of course there's Dieudonne in the Abel Gance silent film (as like a young Rod Stewart as one could imagine: or, the Gros painting of Boney on the Bridge of Arcole), and also whoever it is that plays him in Gance's 1960s "Battle of Austerlitz", which is in many ways a disappointment: regiments of "French" Hussars in unknown uniforms and about twenty strong in total, "Old Guard" Grenadiers aged in their sixties, and, as usual in these historico-military films, units and formations quite unlike the documented reality (mind you, "Gettysburg" was pretty good re. Pickett). Finally, with regard to physiognomy, what about Marlon Brando in some 1950s Hollywood film about "Desiree" (Clary), who became Bernadotte's wife and hence Queen of Sweden?

I don't know what it'll take to convince you of the longer version.

I mean if someone told me that they went to the premiere of Waterloo in London and said that it was over 4 hours long,he also said that there was an intermission too.

Also another friend told me that when he saw the film there was scene's involving the Battle of Ligny which was during the battle,and not what we saw with the aftermath of Ligny.

He told me about the Prussian troops marching around some windmill's,and also there's more scene's with the Battle of Quarte Bras(which we saw nothing of that battle).

Also there's a scene where Wellington and Blucher meet on horseback after the battle,do you remember seeing that.

And before you say anything i happen to have the movie program book for Waterloo and there's a few still shot's,including the meeting of Wellington & Blucher.

And one other thing i have a b/w 8x10 still from the film and it shows Napoleon(Steiger) with a glass of Brandy or some other drink and he's toasting his troops.

So R Mark Davies i don't know how much more convincing you need,i mean it's so obvious that the film is longer than what we have seen.

And sadly we might NEVER get to see the FULL version because who knows if any print still excists.

Captain Gideon

"R Mark Davies 15 Mar 2006 2:23 p.m. PST
I'm still not convinced…"

All I remember is My Father and I going to the 12 midday show at the Classic cinema in Wallsey (Chaeshire), in 1970, I THINK it was my birthday. He had to go down to reception to use a phone at 16:45, because he was due in at work for 17:00, and the film was still running.

"Our Laddie," "Our Hatty" — I never realized so many people heard different thnigs for the scene of the chanting British soldiers.

I've always thought they're saying "Old Beaky", a common nickname of Wellington's among his men.

Yes, stills and the novelization of the original film script seem to strongly indicate that a lot of scenes were planned and probably shot that the final film leaves us with.

Cpt. Gideon: No that is my point. It is an enormous amount of men and a fantastic excercise in logistics.

(I try to avoid setting tone with smiley faces, indeed try to avoid them entirely, and I see this one didn't work much for me either.)

By the way, I've been told that strong proof of drastic editing is that several of the characters and actors who appear in the credits don't appear in the film. Has anyone sat down to work out if this is true?

(And, as is de rigueur en TMP, sorry for my spelling of "exercise" previous.)

Run times: Norway:134 min / UK:132 min / USA:123 min

We are on the hunt for the original cut of the great 1970 movie Waterloo, starring Christopher Plummer and Rod Steiger.
Directed by the Russian grand-master Sergei Bondarchuk, Waterloo covers the 100 Days' campaign and the epic battle that decided the fate of Europe.
When released, Waterloo was only 129 minutes long but Bondarchuk had originally filmed it to last four hours. We'd love to see those missing minutes.
The Napoleonic Guide wants to know if the four-hour version exists, if it is in storage and how we can feast our eyes upon it.
If you can help, send us an email at editor@napoleonguide.com
And check out our review of Waterloo on DVD.
Cheers,
Richard Moore,
Editor.

"… and mortally wounded by the excessive cuts imposed for its release in the US – which resulted in a confused and convoluted film – Waterloo was a major financial disaster at the box-office."

"According to an article written by the film's editor and associate producer Richard C. Meyer, the longest version is the 132 minute version. This has been confirmed by Vladimir Dorsal, the film's First Assistant and later the head of Mosfilm in Moscow. He says that they only have the 132m version in their vaults and no longer 4 hours version ever existed. The myth may derive from an earlier part of Meyer's article when he states that the rough cut was 4 hours long – not unusual for a film of this scope and scale. But after much discussion the present length was agreed on. He also says he stupidly didn't make a dupe of this rough cut, a usual process in post production. So this `cut' will never see the light of day. It is clear from the cast list that many characters were cut. The film was planned as a Road Show release but by 1970 the practice had lost favour with the studios. Columbia Pictures also shortened CROMWELL for the same reason."

I agree that the line is "Our H——" but other than it beginning with H I can't make it out. If the sound was equally vague to the French opposite it can't have had much effect on them!

The late Derek Holmes (of Verlinden) told me some of the uniforms were wrong, but I'm not enough of a Napoleonic expert to notice…

I would love to see this on the big screen. It should be digitally restored, being 'doctored' to make the cannon fire more realistic, correcting the continuity gaffs between the lighting/sky during the massed shots and the close-up scenes on the generals, correcting any uniform errors, and adding even more extras to scenes where it would be justified, battle gore could be made more realitic etc

Or hey, remake the film!

yes, remade the movie, and add all the germans, belgian and nederland army who fought during this battle.

i have this movie on a french VHS and it doesn't have any new scene.

oh, in fact, for those who like all the campaign, i have recently received a VHS copy that i have transferred on DVD. it's a documentary of the battle of ligny, produced by the museum of ligny, it's in french and it have a lot of footage of the actual landscape of the battle (and also a lot of storyline of the battle, including the collateral dammage on the church of ligny, very funny !).

oh, in fact, my friend is from ligny, that why he have this VHS, if anyone is interested, just ask me ( or contact me) and i will try to upload it on rapidshare.

Of course, I've always wondered how Stanley Kubrick would have handled the Napoleon story. He apparently scribbled away at it his entire life, writing and tossing something like seven different scripts. Some of these still survive; I've read bits of them. One of them must have been "Sigmund Freud's Napoleon," because it opens with a birth scene in Corsica, and the older Napoleon in a voice-over (as if watching his own birth), saying, "My mother always loved me…."

Aye, BOLLOCKS!

"Mother" is means to an end. Nothing more.

napoleon.org have a 155 min version listed but I don't know how accurate that is?

Sudwind: Great blast from the past – along with the quaint Royal Navy tradition of cute abbreviations

Decided to check out these various items on my DVD copy – can't find it anywhere! ARGGGGGGGGGGH!

Sam Mustafa said "Of course, I've always wondered how Stanley Kubrick would have handled the Napoleon story."

I shudder at the thought of Stankey Kubrick starting the project, dying, and then being replaced by Steven Speilberg.

Trajanus 14 Mar 2006 12:57 p.m. PST Wrote:
The new Hollywood Napoleon?

Mel Gibson, no contest!

Ha Ha you beat me to it! And of course I agree the French would win this time, "They can take away our chesse formage but they can not take away our Liberte'"

VR
James Mattes

Two scenes from the Mel Gibson movie would have to be,

Ole Mel with his face painted red, white and blue, riding his horse in front of his troops at Waterloo with a flag in his hand calling on them to fight for liberte.

Then later as he lies dying from poison (changed to having been administered by the British and not by a fellow Frenchman), he sees Josephine floating around his room and sits up screaming, in Corsican of course, LIBERTE…..

"Bonaparte? But he's 8' tall!"

'When you say it's terribly inaccurate please explain your views on this.'

Here's a few inaccuracies:

-The Poles were not the lancer outfit that hit the Scots Greys/Union Brigade from the flank. It was Jacquinot's line lancers.

-The movie also didn't show Farine's cuirassiers hitting them from the front. The British cavalry was mousetrapped.

-I doubt very seriously that a cuirassier would plant the French colors on top of one of the buildings of La Haye Sainte after Ney took it.

-The Guard assault at the end of the movie is incorrect. The Old Guard battalions didn't advance in one mass.

-The depiction of the Guard's repulse was incorrect. Maitland's troops were not the only ones to engage them, as depicted in the movie.

-No French cavalry fell into the 'sunken road.' That is fantasy from the pen of Victor Hugo.

-There was no 'last stand' of the Old Guard. The 1st Grenadiers marched off the battlefield in perfect order, as did the rear Guard, which was the Guard cavalry. The Grenadiers a Cheval was the last unit to leave the field, and they retired at their own pace and in perfect order after repulsing a charge by the British cavalry. That's in de Brack, who was there.

-Cambronne probably did say 'Merde.' He was wounded and captured, however, not killed in action.

There is a uniform book on Waterloo based on the costume designs for the movie. It is by Ugo Pericoli and I have seen versions both in English and French.

Gandalf I'm not saying the movie was perfect by any means many historical films are not perfect either.

You said" The depiction of the Guard's repulse was incorrect. Maitland's troops were not the only ones to engage them, as depicted in the movie".

So please tell us what other troops were there that took part.

And you're right the Old Guard was'nt the one who lead the attack it was the Middle and Young Guard that did,but it looked great on film.

I have that uniform book you mentioned was there a reason why you mentioned it?

Captain Gideon

There was no Middle Guard in 1815 and the Young Guard was engaged in Plancenoit, so the only units that made the Guard attack were five Old Guard battalions. And they didn't attack en masse, they essentially made four separate attacks.

Other allied units that were engaged against the Old Guard battalions were Halkett's and the Brunswickers, Chasse's brigade, and Adam's brigade. Maitland was actually driven back from his initial position by one of the Guard battalions, but that battalion was outflanked by Adam. So, you have approximately 2,500 French fighting at least five allied brigades.

Where did I say that the Old Guard 'wasn't the one who lead the attack?'

I mentioned the uniform book because I thought it germane to the thread.

You did ask a question about accuracy. I was merely answering the query.

Sincerely,
K

Gandalf there was Middle Guard at Waterloo and they took part in the final assault,when you at the numbers there was 25,000 Imperial Guard troops of all types at Waterloo.

So for you to say that there was no Middle Guard at Waterloo well you're wrong.

If you have a copy of Ospreys Campaign book on Waterloo go to page 76 of that book.

And it'll tell you about the Guard assault which was made by 6 of the 14 battalion's at Waterloo,and not 5.

Captain Gideon

Check on Map 158 of Espsoito and Elting's A Military History and Atlas of the Napoleonic Wars. It specifically states that 'The 'Middle Guard' was not reactivated in 1815.' There were only Old and Young Guard units. Friant commanded the Old Guard Grenadier division of four regiments, and Morand commanded the Old Guard Chasseur division of four regiments.

I would not rely on the Osprey. That is a bad decision for an inaccurate work.

You can also check Lachouque's The Anatomy of Glory if you wish.

The sixth Old Guard battalion to go forward did not attack with the other five. It ended up forming a rear guard with three other Old Guard battalions when the assault of the five, led by Ney, was repulsed. See Esposito/Elting, Maps 167 and 168.

Sincerely,
K

the 3rd and 4th Gren. and 3rd and 4th Chas. of 1815 are sometimes referred to as Middle Guard but technically they were Old Guard.

"On the battlefield, his hat is worth 30,000 men."

And his shoes were worth twice that.

Napoleon once threw his breeches (90,000 men) at a Russian redoubt and took it without firing a shot.

In regards to Osprey are you saying that all their books are inaccurate?

Or are you saying that only some of their books are inaccurate?

And as far as the Middle Guard goes well i've got some OB's and some books like Osprey and Albert Nofi's book on the Waterloo Campaign which lists the Middle Guard.

I also have the West Point Atlas too plus some other books which don't mention the Middle Guard.

So the way i see it as long as most of my sources say that the Middle Guard was there i'll go along with that,i mean it's not really a big deal but i'm happy with it.

Captain Gideon

For Ospreys, it depends on the author. Rene Chartrand's Ospreys are excellent, for example, and are works of scholarship. Too many of the Napoleonic volumes, however, have too many errors, such as the one you cite. Others, such as the volume on Guilford Courthouse, is terrible.

Which West Point Atlas are you referring to? If it's the Esposito/Elting Atlas, I have quoted from it and it definitely mentions the Middle Guard not being in existence in 1815.

Don Lowry is correct in his statement on the Guard in 1815.

I've read Nofi and the Osprey. They aren't the best references for the 1815 Belgian campaign. If you're interested in the campaign and would like a listing of some of the references I have which you might find helpful, you may email me off-line at Boulart198@yahoo.com.

If you haven't read Lachouque, Esposito/Elting, Siborne, Ropes, Houssaye and some others, you are definitely missing out on historical treats.

Yes I do have the Esposito/Elting Atlas it has both text and maps,although i had an earlier version with just the maps which i found at a goodwill store.

I'll take you up on your offer and i'll be emailing you at some point.

I have 2 of Lachouque's books one on Waterloo and the other of the War in Spain,i also had Scotty Bowden's Armies of Waterloo some time back but don't have it now.

I have a few other Waterloo books one which i don't recall the name is told from the viewpoints of the French,Prussian's and British.

Over the years i've had other Waterloo books but several are really bad.

Captain Gideon

Might I also recommend you read the Three works by Peter Hofschroer as well for a "Prussian view" of the campaign.
VR
James Mattes

SpecboyPaul 14 Mar 2006 4:54 a.m. PST
Has anyone worked out what the soldiers are shouting in response to the calls of: 'Who's the man to leather the French?';

'Our Nosey'.

Robert le Diable posted:
' aeriel scene of the French cavalry attacks over the ridge, a square (at top right or top left) can be seen breaking, presumbaly in genuine panic at the prospect of thundering hooves &c,'
Definately. The Yugoslav extras had not been around horses. The only square not to 'break', apocraphally contained British Army soldiers bought in to drill the extras.

Most of the extras uniforms were made of paper.

Gandulf
'-There was no 'last stand' of the Old Guard.'

Naughty Gandulf. You know full well there were conflicting accounts about what happened to the guard in general, including the circumstances of their retreat. You'll tell us we should 'read a bit more' next!

Oh, you did.

Anyway, anyone notice the Prussian arriving in the film across the wheat fields? And the wheat is already trampled down in front of them! – presumably from previous takes.

Also what's interesting is the quotes: anyone else noticed how most if not all of Christopher Plummer's lines are actually true (or sourced at least).. but from other battles? The Beresford question about Wellington's orders was (I think) from Talavera. Hunting down the other quotes to their original battles is good way to get into the Peninsula campaign.

Captain Gideon
Autos de fe "That movie was terribly inaccurate. He only used 20,000 extras. :)". – When you say it's terribly inaccurate please explain your views on this.'

Sence of humour by-pass?

Some of the stories of the Guard at Waterloo are apocryphal and are therefore inaccurate or the product of an over active imagination. Victor Hugo's is a good example.

There was no last stand of the Old Guard, and no one said 'The Guard dies but never surrenders.'

I would imagine quite a few of them uttered the term 'Merde' and much else besides.

How else would you find out something historically if you didn't look it up in reliable material?