" The current trend to use unpainted miniatures " Topic

For good or evil the hobby, unfortunately is the same, it is miniature wargames and is about playing a wargame with miniatures, that's it, in what we differ is what we expect from it, that gives different points of view but still doesn't change the hobby.
The hobby of miniature wargames has several sub divisions, painting, scenery making historical and background research are a few of them, they all serve to enhance the gaming experience but are not necessary needed for it.

I accept that you enjoy painted miniatures, I also respect that you have precious little time to be "bothered" with players having unpainted miniatures, but what is your personal preference shouldn't be the normal for all clubs and the hobby itself.

I for example enjoy playing with forces both reasonable and according to background, should because of that, all power players that play for victory heedless of scenarios background or logic but still legal with their list (with painted or unpainted armies) be banned from the hobby?

When I go to play a battle, I go to play the game, what I like about wargames (detailed painting, theme and background) I make sure my force has it, what my opponent will do with his force, is up to him, it is his force and with that, it is his money, time and expectations.

Eventually after the game ends, we both have played a wargame and each fulfilled, with his own force what he liked about the hobby of miniature wargames.

Yawn

"I for example enjoy playing with forces both reasonable and according to background, should because of that, all power players that play for victory heedless of scenarios background or logic but still legal with their list (with painted or unpainted armies) be banned from the hobby?"

No, just my table!

Isn't the whole purpose of playing a wargame to re-inact or create a fictional battle?

I'm a painted-models-only type of guy, because I enjoy the spectacle of seeing two armies, and to play out something that looks like it's really happening.

I don't believe the game is as enjoyable without painted models, it ruins the atmosphere, you might as well play with different coloured tiddy-winks for each side and pretend they are space marines.

"Isn't the whole purpose of playing a wargame to re-inact or create a fictional battle?"

No – that's YOUR purpose. But I agree with you that it spoiles the look of the game and would prefer figures to be painted.

Pat

I think we have lost the path.
We need some facts.

Miniatures warfames is about playing a wargame with miniatures. Fact
And painted miniatures give a better visual appeal. Fact
But are not necessary. Fact
And while some people are there for the visual appeal others aren't. Fact

Were it really boils down is where the two extreme opposites collide, and that's the middle way, whoever wants to play with full painted army he can field his own full painted army whoever doesn't is his problem but in either case you can't dictate what another's army should look like.

Anyway I grow weary of comments that say if it is an unpainted army then it equals to "whatever piece of junk to represent miniatures" the poster thought of, the miniature painted horribly or superbly or unpainted is there and that's what miniature wargaming is all about wargame with miniatures.

Psychoticstorm-

Play with unpainted toys all you want. I'm not obliged to game with you. Its not my duty or obligation in _any_ way to game with or against unpainted armies.

Period!

It's not about you playing with players having unpainted armies, it's about the notion of prohibiting them from having fun in clubs and stores because that idea is enforced on them.

You repeatedly seem to fail grasping what the discussion is all about and take it on personal level. I wouldn't care what you enforce on your table, you can snob on personal level as many players you like as anyone else can snob you for whatever reason but, I care when people try to enforce such notions in club or bigger level this is unacceptable since not everyone in this hobby is for the same as you.

A side note is that I find your comments going on the degrading, an unpainted miniature is a "toy" while painted is a proper model… even if it is the same… miniature… its so sad to read these comments especially in a hobby were we play with "toy soldiers".

Doesn't the whole thing just boil down to:

If you're happy using unpainted miniatures do so, if you're not, then paint them to the best of your ability [or buy painted models].

Either way just get on with gaming & have some fun doing it.

But…..

_please_ don't ever use unpainted stuff in public demo/participation games.

Norberto

"A side note is that I find your comments going on the degrading, an unpainted miniature is a "toy" while painted is a proper model… even if it is the same… miniature… its so sad to read these comments especially in a hobby were we play with "toy soldiers".

The sermonizing tone of your post is duly noted.

Yup, I'll "snob" it up at home, and I won't participate in public games featuring unpainted lead.

End of story. (that is unless you're intent on making sure you have the final word)

Do people think it's less of an issue to have an unpainted army now than years ago? I remember some people making a fuss because people were turing up to events with lead models that make your hands turn black after handling them a short time, which isn't very healthy. But with more things being white metal that isn't such an issue.

>>>"Isn't the whole purpose of playing a wargame to re-inact or create a fictional battle?"

No – that's YOUR purpose. But I agree with you that it spoiles the look of the game and would prefer figures to be painted.<<<

Well what other purpose is there? Unless you're a person simply playing to win, in which case the 'spirit' of the game isn't an issue.

Perhaps I'd let someone field an unpainted unit once, if it was painted the next month there wouldn't be a problem. But I wouldn't want to play against someone who continually played with unpainted models because it stikes me as the sort of attitude from a person who A) isn't fully interested in the universe of the hobby/game, and B) is only buying models to play and win, not to create and enjoy the spectacle of the battle, and play in the spirit of the game.

Oh 'Spirit'

Nope.

Some people play for the reasons you give.
Some people 'cos they like playing games.
Some people 'cos they have all of these lovely painted figures and want to do something with them.
Some people indeed DO play 'cos they like winning.

There is no 'Spirit' or 'Purpose' you can nail down and say 'This is why everyone plays wargames and anyone who is not doing it for this reason is NOT wargaming.'

Pat

I'm amazed I hadn't posted on this thread before.

And I'm wondering how many miniatures could have been painted, if that's what the posters had been doing instead of posting.

Allen (firmly in the elitist snob camp, if that matters)

Allen,
at the speed I paint, not too many!

Fred Rose, I finally understand your thesis in your previous post, we are in an agreement.

If you don't want unpainted miniatures in your own table and games but don't enforce it on others outside there, it is fully understandable and respected.

Peace.

This argument always amuses me.

My personal opinion is that I prefer well-painted minis, but it's a preference, not a requirement. I have not put as much time into painting as I have into playing… afterall, playing is why I bought a game. If painting were the key motivator, I wouldn't worry about "an army"… I'd just do handfuls of minis here and there. Which, to be honest, was my original exposure to minis.

I have fielded substituion armies, primed armies, bare metal armies, and even bases-only armies. None of them have had the slightest bearing on my enjoyment of the game.

I will play with anyone who abides by the rules in the gamebook, and I've never read a rulesbook that says I have to have a painted army. (BTW, this whole argument is probably what's leading so many people to HeroClicks.)

That being said, I try to encourage folks to field painted armies, but that's just not realistic. Seriously… you've got to drop at least $200 USD on a solid army, if not more, just for the figs. Then you probably need to spend that much again in a paint set-up, and an hour per mini to get a paint job down (and yes, I know, micro-scale armies can do rank-and-file a lot faster, but I think this is a good average time throughout the hobby with all levels of painters). Now, if the average person has to spend $400 USD and has to spend 80+ hours before they can ever even play the game, how many folks are actually going to play?

We discouraged bare metal by offering "best painted army" prizes at tournaments for 100% painted armies, and "best painted units" prizes to encourage the new guys. We ran a league campaign for a while, where you got army building bonuses for every 25% of your army that was painted.

Just remember, the guy you refuse to game with now because his army isn't 100% painted is going to refuse to play with you later for being a "jerk". And when none of us will play with each other, what's the point?

Nicely said.

I would say that if a person is making an attempt to paint his or her army yes they can play with not the whole thing completed now if you go to a GT or a bigger tourny yes you should have your entire army atleast three colors thats all I have to say about that

Painted models only, screw the lazy sob's who can't slap a couple of layers of paint on a mini. Seriously, let em play with each other.
What I love best about the unpainted hordes is their tendancy to show up at the local gaming store to use all the pretty terrain.

Dear god, you bring this topic up on the Warmachine/Privateer Press forums and all the defenders of unpainted figures jump down your throat.

Painting figures is part of the hobby, if it was not they would come unpainted…nuff said.

I am sorry but I am firmly in the painted camp. If you want to play with unpainted figures fine. I don't and don' see why I should be made to. Enjoy your game I just won't be part of it. I also wouldn't play a game with someone who used incorrect models tactics or forces.

At one local group several members including myself refuse to piay in the Vietnam campaign because two members keep up a constant stream of racist comments. Now these two have staed that "its a period feel thing" and many other players don't seem to mind. Should I just play anyway?

I feel that I can pick and choose how I play and so can you. Just don't expect me to take part in a game I don't like. I also won't play Napolionics because they bore the arse of me!

Fatman

Oh and I forgt to mention it is NEVER right to feild unpainted minis at a convention. Although I feel that we have a cross Atlantic language problem here. In the UK and I think Europe a convention means display or participation games. I think when our US freinds say a convention they are mostly talking about compition games.

Fatman

I agree Fatman.

One doesn't travel hundreds (or thousands) of miles paying fuel and airfare, as well as hundreds of dollars in hotels and admissions just to sit across the table from mounds of raw lead!

I'm firmly in the painted camp as well.

All the excuses in the world don't count. It is just lazyness to field unpainted figures.

You need to decide exactly what you are capable of doing with the time you have available. If you don't have time to paint an army for a period that you want to game then just join a club that does. You can then concentrate on the stuff that you do have time to do.

I haven't played with (or against) unpainted minis since I was about 12. In your own home or club I don't have any problem but at a store, convention or competition they should be painted. Otherwise it just looks terrible.
The look of a game is at least 50% of the enjoyment. If you won't bother to paint your army then I won't bother to play you.

" The current trend to use unpainted miniatures "

??????

Hasn't this ALWAYS been the "trend"?

It all comes down to a basic premise that I think many are missing in the smoke and fire of heated debate.It is not just miniatures that make it miniature wargaming. It is an attempt to create a realistic facsimily,in miniature of the scope of simulated conflict.There is a very subtle difference between a flat table with drawn lines for terrain ,dime store toy soilders and a set of rules,and three dimentional terrain,and painted soilders.The former is a game of conflict.The latter is an active,creative,and dynamic hobby of wargaming in minature.There is little effort in dumping out a bag of toy soilders to play a game.It may be fun,but it is the hobbists efforts to create that makes the hobby what it is.Gamers are just that ,they love to play games,no foul in that.Miniature wargamers are hobbist that love to play games and share …the efforts…of their hobby ,with others,through games.I am not elitist or trying to be harsh,but if you don't paint your figures,or put anything of yourself in them you are not a Miniature Wargame Hobbist.Why not play with paper,or chips,or any number of exellent wargames with cutout counters.You would certainly be a Wargamer.If you don't put forth an effort,you might ask yourself ,"Why do I read/post on TMP…The Miniature Page…?"

erm…that would be "soldiers"..ahem…

There are two major hobby shops in my area. One holds to the rule of three, I.E. your figures must be painted with at least three colors in order to play. (And no, basecoat and two colored stripes don't count) The other one doesn't have any standard.

However, in practice, most of the unpainted armies I see there are either new players, or people who have just started a new army and are dying to try it out. As time goes on, they end up painted as well.

Personally, I could never bring myself to field an unpainted army, even if I could really use that extra dreadnaught or Italian tankette company. I usually just end up pulling a late night speed painting session.

FWIW, the GW 'Rogue Trader' tournament format _requires_ painted Minis. I've pulled many a late night (7-8am) trying to get models painted to an acceptable standard (and still be able to play the next day), but I've more or less given up on the tournament scene.

When I play for fun (and am using poorly/un-painted minis) I take the odd guys out first.

I have played 'Demo Games' in the shop that were entirely proxy. Blank Bases. it looked horrible. Needless to say, the game isn't doing too well, but when I bring in some newly painted minis, I get a slew of questions (what game is that for? mostly).

My biggest beef is the guy that does the one-color paint jobs on moderate-scale models (28mm), and thinks it's a good paintjob. By one-color, I mean that he's 'basecoated' all the different parts in whatever color (if that much), with no control over where the paint goes,and no attempt to improve his painting. Yes, I hold myself to a high standard (and I still suck at painting!). For example: FoW Germans, with the tanks rattlecanned Panzer Gray, troops rattlecanned a different gray, and faces painted white. Not aryan flesh, white. <shudder>

I don't enjoy playing against a poorly painted army. My most favorite games are generally the guys like Vincent 'Boltman' Hudon (although I've never hard the privilege to play him), who paints to an incredible standard, and plays to have fun.

I _am_ in it for the spectacle, and not having pretty armies to look at is… disappointing to say the least.

This whole thread is kinda funny. There is no winning on painted Vs. unpainted with people.

What it comes down to is what is better for the hobby in general. Face it what looks better to prospective new players? It's seeing those painted armies on decent terrain. Forcing them to paint will also drive them away on the other hand. There needs to be an acceptable middle ground.

Just to clarify I will not play unpainted if I can help it. And the groups I play with have an unspoken rule. You don't need to have the whole thing painted but make an atempt. Puttin One color on a unit each week or so is fine by us since it shows you're trying and that is all that matters.

I for one would rather see people playing the game painted or unpainted. The bottom line is it is a game. And if people aren't playing it then it does not look good for the game. So in the end it is better to have 30 happy players in the seats than four well painted armies. I wissh all players would paint their minis before playing but that is not practical all the time – like at a con where you just bought the box set.

Please excuse the bad english.

I m myself on the "painted army side". I try to have as well painted miniatures as I can. I ve always been like that and actually it made me close to never play untill I discovered HOTT 2 years ago, because by the time i finished to paint my armies for other games, peeps around me have moved their interrest to a new game or phisically to a new town. That s just an introduction, my point here is to think about the real reasons that make more and more peoples play with unpainted armies, at least here in France.

During the last 10 years, a few things have changed here in France and I think it mainly started with the apparition of Rackham miniatures (8 years ago or so).

What do Rackham (Confrontation, Rag Narok, Hybrid, etc) gave us ? Let check their original blisters : A very fine and detailled miniature, a booklet with simple and easy rules that let play with FEW miniatures, a card with statistics AND a PICTURE of the miniature painted to a high standard, with some new (at least for the comon gamer) way to paint : No Metal Metal, and that technique to make subtle color with lavish like paint that take forever (i don t know english for that technic).

Racham started slowly but finally became the second miniature seller here and it s actually often more easy to find a Rackham game player than a GW one.

So, what is wrong with Rackham ?

- fast easy rules : it make it easy to start a game half an hour after opening the blister, when the mini is still not painted. You buy 2 blisters, and u can play with a friend. Not an issue by itself, but it make you start your first game without painting. No base composition, nothing, u open and u play and u see the picture in color to please your eyes.
- The picture : as i said, painted to a high standard : It make you dream, see the details that your unused eye (if a newcomer to the hobby) would not see, give you ideas for colors, make u think it s possible and give you the envy to start painting. Untill you paint your first miniature. Then, you have 3 options seeing the difference :

— 1) cry and stop painting : i will never achieve this, have no time, a familly, etc and go spend time watching TV (which is not time consuming as everyone know).

— 2) cry and go on painting "as you can" : few will do that, because of shame due to others criticing your miniatures and WORSE : having to look every time you play at that picture of the painted miniature showing what you could / should have made and how horrible is your painting job : it make you criticise yourself and have to choose between 1) or 3) at one point or another.

— 3) cry and start WORKING on achieving the same standard.

- last thing about the blister is the miniature : those are not easy to paint. They are less easy to paint than Games workshop or Foundry ones for exemple : more subtle details, sharp edges, etc : Rackham miniatures are trying to achieve excellence in miniatures factoring. If you have not thin enough paint, you ll hide many details that would still appear on a GW mini. One of the way they achieve it beside complex molds is the "stuff" they use to sculpt often not green stuff unless for some parts like clothes, and very tallented sculptors, of course. When u open a white dwarf or any webpage work in progress you close to ever see a green thing, when u look at Rackham's, you see a 2, 3 or more colored mini using different material for different textures. Anyway.

What does all those things in one blister have created ?

Many peoples start to play with no painted minies, it s a new game, many other play like you, actually most players play as you do. You do not have speciallised shops like GW who will train you in standard painting your Rackham miniatures (i m not encensing GW). Everyone do it : no shame in not painting, many shame (caused by other and yourself in painting. "you call this a no metal metal ? tss" or "WHAT ? you do really still use metallic Paint ? don t you know it s not cool ?" or " Are you kidding me ? do you REALLY use drybrushing ?" and so on as exemple).

Few peoples start to achieve a high standard of painting. A very high standard. The kind that make you spend a few month on one miniature. They sometime spend less time and do an army fast with basic technics, noone will say anything. They win cool minie or not, they win Rackham contests , they start wining golden demons, in France and start taking away swords form other european GD. They re soon called the "french touch", they use complex or slow painting techniques, they create emulation and make many try to paint like them. Those who try stop because it s too hard, or go on painting more and more quality and less ad less miniatures. This have the same result : less painted armies. This also raise the standard of painting you can see in white dwarf when they publish golden demon winners who use racham standard (funny btw).

I ve recently bought the wargames foundry painting book (I m fond of any painting guide, there s always something to learn). My first impression was "so that s what Kevin Dallimore do ? Damn, they call him a good painter ? all that stuff is crap. You can see where the brush was on the zoomed pictures (you can t on a well rakham like painted one)". In last white dwarf (i buy it for pictures) you have those Gotrek miniatures and … an article on painting with a rackham like standard the flesh of gotrek and the cape of his follower : So not using the standard lavish drybrush technics they usually show.

One of the first messages on this thread was saying something like "I do not like unpainted or crap painted armies". For myself i like painted armies. whatever standard the painter achieve. When i see a crap painted army, i now do my best to find something good in it, a detail, a choice of color, quantity, anything. And i let the painter know it. When I paint armies from friend, i do it with standard methods and i explain those. When i can, i try to show how easy a lavish is. When seeing crap painted armies, i try to show how something fast and easy could improve it (again, lavish on metal armor or flesh for exemple)… lavish do not require precision at first, and improve a lot a miniature look.

I try to fight that display painting standard for armies whenever I can. I keep painting display miniatures, but i ve learned to use a lesser standard for troops. I ve myself been traveling the "dark side" of perfection research. That do not mean i do my best to regress, i always try to improve. But i try to not be elitist.

I have nothing against Rackham. I like their miniatures, I like looking at french touch painters and try to "follow" them for some miniatures. I just make a difference between display and gaming.

I ve looked again at Kevin's book a few days ago while thinking about this. He s a wonderfull army painter. And his best technique is prolly that one color technique. Not that i ll use it. But i show it. I ll advertise it. I ll show the pictures and translate (by voice, no copyright infrigement) it to young players.

Some other peeps said here that 10 years ago there was more painted armies. Look at a 10 years ago White Dwarf : it wasn t the same standard. Not even speaking of the flashing colors.

Painting armies is fast. I can paint a 25 dwarves unit in one day. Because i have experience, i can do it to a good standard. Someone with less experience can do it too. maybe not as good as he s learning, but it ll make him learn. He wont win at cool mini or not. He won t win a slayer sword. and he won t win if peoples ask him why he do not use a brush or if he s not ashamed to show a crap army.

But he ll win if you encourage him, if you show him how he CAN (and not NEED TO) improve. If you show him that there is another way than spending a year on one miniature.

That was just my 2 (long) coppers.

Gregory Privat
gloarmy.free.fr

Never play with unpainted minis in public. I agree with the poster who compared it to playing with poker chips. Look, if you don't think visuals are important, play a boardgame, OK? If you want to play minis, you have to paint them. Not ought to, HAVE to. It's part of the game. To do otherwise is an insult to the game and to those who took the time and did it right.

Wow, I cannot believe this is still going! I've created a monster thread! ;-)

Gosh, this thread makes me want to play with unpainted miniatures in public, just to see if I can get someone to have a stroke.

I might as well have my say here as pretty much everyone else in the community has.

Firstly, I don't really mind playing against unpainted minis.. the first few times. However, simply put, I put alot of effort into my minis and terrain, and unpainted minis just spoil the table really.

As far as people saying they don't have time to paint their minis.. umm.. what? I mean I guess I can't say that people aren't too busy to paint their minis, because what do I know about their lives right? However, surely you can sit in front of the TV with the family and paint.. or find SOME time to paint those minis.. really it's not that difficult. Sometimes it can take many months to finish an army if you don't have a heck of a lot of time, but as long as you actually chip away at it, you do get there.

Really the only reasonable excuse I can think of to not paint your minis is either:

a. You are physically unable to paint them due to some disability (who would complain about that!!)

b. You prefer to play with unpainted minis and are really unconcerned with the fact that you reduce the enjoyment factor for your opponent (potentially).

Of course there was also the point made that some people feel embarassed about their ability (or lack of) to paint well. I guess this is more applicable to those periods such as Napoleonics where, yep, it certainly isn't easy to paint those minis.. however, if this is the reason for you not painting, then my advice is, please, suck it in and start trying, you WILL get better, and you WILL NOT regreat taking that step and painting them.. and for me, I won't complain that your minis don't look that great, as long as they actually have some colour and from 2 feet look the part, it's all good.

Lastly, for those that say they are more interested in the tactics etc… no problem here, however it's not really taking into account the fact that your opponent may have made the effort to paint his/her army to increase his/her enjoyment of the hobby.. your lack of effort is a bit of a spoiler (after the 5th game with still no effort made).

Just my take on it. I really don't think there are many valid excuses not to paint, but if you have one, then fair enough.

BTW… I did want to add that clubs that have a rule against unpainted minis are being a bit much.. wargaming clubs should only ever be inclusive IMO.. at least if people turn up with unpainted minis you have the chance to encourage them.. = )

Can't help but dig up a little bit of thread gold and add my 2 cents:

My personal experience is that those people who game with unpainted lead share a large population sample with the type which use 15mm Nappys to play 15mm Ancients, based on a Kellog's Corn Flakes box with the glossy side up. While I do see room for allowance for new members for any club I belong too, there should also be a standard with encouragement/support to reach that standard. However, if its let go too long you will see his Old Guard punching through your line of hoplites before you know it. It's a slippery slope and I'm all about bud nipping, nip it in the bud!

I don't even remember if I've posted on this thread yet!!!

I agree with what a lot of people said: I like to see figures progress through painting. If they are a new gamer and just want to try the hobby, then let them play with some unpainted minis. Tell the new player that it would be nice to see a new colour added to his army each time, so he/she has time to paint on his/her own terms without scrutiny. It will also give them a chance to experiment with techniques and paints, improving the experience that they have in the hobby. I'd probably allow even an experienced player to field a few unpainted vehicles or support weapons that we have yet to use. As before, I'd expect that they were painted more (if not fully) by the next game.

Then again, I game with plastics, and don't have to fear the metal and resin (just Airfix) ;-)

Chris

I'd rather not play than play with unpainted minis. It's really not that hard to slap on a three color job. Seriously.

does anyone remeber laughter?

The rule where I came from (if anybody cares after nearly 200 posts) was you got to use 'em the first time without paint, and then you got one time with just one or two major colors, and after that they had to be fully painted.

Worked fine, you got to use your snazzy new troops right away, but still had a reason to get them painted (assuming you enjoyed using them – those poor stormtroopers :).

Unpainted mini's are in storage in boxes.

Painted Mini's on the table.

That is how we do it….

I would play and make demos with unpainted minis. Those who have a problem with it can go and do whatever they like. Over here we shall have fun while you complain and fight over why that soldier is not supposed to be blue or something.

I prefer painted.

But I played with unpainted at home to try out a new set of rules that wanted 1:20 scale (ie big) units, and I wanted to know if I would enjoy the system enough to paint the figures.

And the answer was yes, so that's what I am doing. But I am glad that I tried first.

I would not take unpainted to a show or to my club. Mind you, I do take Robo rally at times to club night and get moaned at for not painting the counters, but I regard them as markers, not miniatures (unlike my Naps with their lace and piping!). Is that wrong?

What about basing? Is it wrong to use minis before you had a chance to base fancy up the bases?

Using unpainted miniatures on the tabletop is lazy. It breeds a lazy philosophy and psychology for the players who are around it, and it creates a self-defeating cycle of just plain lameness. I mean HOW excited can you possibly get when you are staring down at a table surrounded by soda cans, stacks of boxes and papers and unfinished projects, and covered with papers, with two bare metal armies being played on top of a piece of green felt????

I've been with both types of wargaming crowds, and over the years I have gravitated completely towards those who insist on only allowing painted minis on the table. It simply leads to greater enthusiasm and greater achievements, and the hobby is simply more inspiring and more fun!

I have found that when you are with a crowd who use unpainted minis, it reveals a much broader lazy mentality. It's like anything else in life. How much you get out of miniature wargaming depends on how much you want to put into it. If you think that you'll never be able to achieve the kinds of scenes you see in White Dwarf or other professional wargaming magazines, then you NEVER WILL achieve it. However, if you are around people who all strive to do it, then you WILL do it!

I have found that when you are using unpainted minis, the laziness seeps into terrain, soon it becomes acceptable to use cardboard boxes for buildings, books for hills, etc. Then that turns into noone caring if the wrong figures are used for the wrong time periods, scale mixing, flag mixing, and complete disregard for any kind of accuracy or finished army. And furthermore, it also tends to reveal disorganized gamers. They have 100 projects all in process, but none are ever finished. Everything is always a mess. They always own every single game and every single blister in a range, but half of them are unassembled, and parts are missing, and most of the blisters aren't even opened. Any new player coming into that situation is hardly going to be motivated to strive for something better.

Gaming stores with clubs that use unpainted minis I have found to be more disorganized stores as a whole, and it in turn attracts more disorganized people, and the whole situation just perpetuates itself. And what's worse, that whole philosophy almost breeds a kind of contempt against people who ARE striving to paint better, build good terrain, and really bring their wargames to life. "OH, you actually paint designs on your banners, why?" I've heard quotes to that affect at gaming stores, The unpainted crowd almost starts to resent that gamers do paint their minis and do pursue the hobby with passion. And once that happens, the negativity just perpetuates itself.

On top of that, minis are way too expensive to fall short and use them as mere game counters. Why on earth would you buy several hundred or several thousand dollars worth of Dixon or GW minis, and slap them on the tabletop bare metal? There's no point to it. Keep the money and use cardboard counters. Don't put all that money into the purchase of the POTENTIAL detail that's in the figures and then do nothing to help bring all the detail out!

If you want to play wargames, but aren't willing to put the effort into at least painting miniatures with basic colors and basing them with finished bases, and at least making respectably finished and painted terrain, then you should stick to board games and counter games. You don't belong near miniature wargames, except as a spectator.

I fully realize that people assemble armies and playtest rules and things when they are new to the hobby, and use unpainted armies at first, that is an integral part of the hobby when it's new to someone. But once that initial stage is over, games should only be played with painted minis….PERIOD.

It's not just about "to each his own" and everybody can do their own thing, it's a free country. Well yes it is, and yes you can. But ask yourself how much you REALLY want to get from the hobby, and be really honest with yourself when it comes to how it feels to looking at a board filled with two nicely painted armies fighting over good terrain, vs. two unpainted armies fighting over cardboard box terrain.

The difference is huge and the difference in feeling and inspiration is even bigger!

M

See, I've read this thread many times since it started and the thing that keeps coming back to me is that I have never met anyone who would even consider gaming with unpainted minis 'in public'.

At home sometimes when I first get a new unit I have a play to see how it will do, but that's against myself. Heck I often use bits of paper with 'Panther' or whatever written on to try out ideas, but that's with just me around.

I wouldn't consider trying to put unpainted minis on the table when gaming other people, that's just disrespectful of the time and effort they have put in to painting their figures.

Now maybe I'm just lucky in the people I game with (although I have moved around quite a bit and gamed in different areas at different times) but EVERYBODY I have ever gamed with has had the same attitude. We all like collecting new figures but part of the 'buzz' is to get them painted so they can be used.

I think non-painted minis is another symptom of the dumbing down of 'the hobby' which sadly I think has been brought about by the growth of GW style games.

We all know the type of games where official figures for the game are produced and players are given official painting guides and so on, the creativity and stimulus to the imagination is lost and it becomes a small step to say 'we all know what this figure base size represents – no need for the actual figures'.

That's not for me.

Current trend?! I've never come across it.