"Warzone/Chronopia Licensing Changes?" Topic

Here's a link to a discussion on licensing: link

Excelsior Crusader (Sweden)
Global Moderator

Re: License Info
« Reply #30 on: Today at 02:22:10 AM »

Update!

I have been in contact with Fredrik Malmberg at Paradox to confirm the information regarding Warzone. Fredrik confirms that they have canceled the license for both Warzone and Chronopia. He also writes that they have a plan for both games and that it will be made public shortly.

/Andreas

Why don't they just give up and try something new? It can be the greatest game in the world but if you don't trust the company who makes it no one is going to buy it. This will be the third time it will have been released ,and I don't believe it's going to stick any longer this time then it did with Excelsior. So how about something with a fresh look not the same old thing everyone is going to be scared to buy because they don't know how long this version of Warzone or Chronopia will be around. ((I'm not even going to go into the shoulder pads that are bigger then a mans chest thats just not fair))

Very interesting. A pity realy. I liked the original Chronopia warts and all. I never bought the 2nd ed rules. But heard it was an improvement on what was already a good game. I am affraid that given the current market glut in Science Fiction and Fantasy game systems as well as figures that this would be a hard company to revive.

Mongoose and Privateer Press have already had better showings, as well as support and fine minis to boot. There is also Wargods, HOTT, and others that have had better track runs in regards to their games and miniatures. I feel that without a powerful marketing campaign, updated minis, along with finishing the gaps in that mini line it would be hard to make a comeback.

I know Warzone and Chronopia have a devoted following but I think that is shrinking with only a few diehards to keep it going. Well let's hope for the best.

Kim

Well, I believe you are completely wrong. There are a large number of Warzone fans worldwide. The universe is well developed. A huge range of figures exists. The problem with Warzone had to do with the complete and utter failure of Excelsior to operate in anything like a professional and smart business manner. The number of excuses given for a variety of ongoing issues was almost dumbfounding. Warzone simply needs a company that will do it justice to succeed in the marketplace.

Thanks,

John

I agree with John 100%. These games would do just fine if I good company gets behind them (please not another EE).

Scott

I agree with John as well. If a company has any bit of competance the game should do well. If I bought it I would immedietly get rid of all the old crappy sculpts and just use the new ones as well as have ones sculpted that need to be. (of course allow the older ones to be played in tournaments, just dont sell them anymore). When Excelsior decided to bring back all the old crappy sculpts that were resculpted nicely and make new units out of them so you would have to buy them and have both good and crappy with different scale I decided I was done. They said they did it to not alienate older players with the older models, that is hogwash. If you allow them in games but dont sell them it doesnt alienate anyone, but to make people buy them it alienates them. To me it was a greedy way to try and make more money on old crappy sculpts instead of trying to continue what 2nd edition did with resculpting to match the current quality of models out there.

Then the absolute absence of any releases but maybe 3 models a year killed them imo. The game might as well be dead then. Then the thousand excuses why nothing ever pans out that is promised makes EE either the absolute unluckiest company on Earth or they make it up to hide the real reason (not having the money to do it, or help, or competance or whatever the real reason is). The second thing that killed it for me was their first new release of warzone sculpt was sculpted by the owner, an amatuer of shadowwalkers. They were horrid and stepped back in quality of the oldest sculpts. That was the final straw for me and I quit, because even if something would ever be released I would prolly hate the sculpt anyways.

sorry for the long rant, I just become emotional over Warzone since I loved it so much for so long and hated what EE did with it. I truly hope someone else picks it up that is competant, I will rebuy the minis and get back into it if I know it will go somewhere.

All a company has to do, any company, is make a line of reasonably priced sci fi figures that are compatible with another certain company's and they can make a lot of money.

I'd go with that approach. Redo the figures and then work on the rules.

John and Madzerker summed it up neatly.

EE was just good enough at stringing us along (for example, those three or four releases a year were generally excellent) to keep the embers of hope stoked, but never good enough to re-ignite interest in the games.

Darn shame, too. I loved, really loved playing Chronopia.

You all might be interested to know that I entered into negotiations with Excelsior to start sculpting for them about 18 months ago. Having seen my work, I was assured by Thom Talamini that he would be commissioning me to add to the ranges of both Chronopia and Warzone. As a big Chronopia fan, I had already made some figures to expand upon the range already available and plug some holes on my army lists. I sent these figures to Thom on the understanding that, if he released them, he would pay me for them – all communication ceased and shortly after I see them as a new release on their website (Goblin Spearmen). Despite several attempts to contact Thom to assertain what the story was, I have had no recognition or renumeration for the works. Basicly they stole the designs from me.

I am a professional sculptor working for Eureka Miniatures, Brigade Games and Maidenhead Miniatures to name but a few. thankfully this sort of thing does not happen all that often. Most people are trustworthy, a few are not. I for one would like to see these fine games being given the profile I believe they deserve, I would also still very much like to add my talents (for what they are worth) to the product. Fingers crossed for a rebirth of these rules.

Mike, I'm truly sorry to hear what happened to you with Excelsior. Though I've never dealt with Excelsior myself I've only heard bad things about them as a company, but stealing sculpts really takes the cake. For what it's worth, I'm a big fan of your work, and it's good to know that this incident hasn't deterred you from the idea of working with the Warzone/Chronopia franchises under their new owners.

Personally, I never got into Chronopia, but I really like the Warzone setting from what I know of it (gleaned mainly from the original Warzone and the Doomtrooper card game). It's a concept I could really get into, but I was always put off by (in my opinion) the poor quality of the miniatures. If a range could be developed that did justice to the excellent concept artwork and illustrations from Mutant Chronicles, Warzone and Doomtrooper, I for one would snap it up. With talent like Mike's behind it, I'm sure that would be the case.

Whether or not I would buy a new ruleset would also depend on the strength of the miniatures line. Whilst I would happily buy high quality Warzone miniatures which I could then use with any generic sci-fi rules system of my choice, I am unlikely to buy a setting-specific ruleset without a quality miniatures line to back it up.

I'd agree strongly with the comments here. Excelsior have no-one but themselves to blame. I really like the Warzone universe, most of the minis and the game but the delays in UWZ release and the few, horrible sculpts they produced utterly killed the game. The treatment of Mike merely adds into the general impression that Excelsior couldn't find their collective backsides with a roadmap.

I can't see anyone being able to resurrect the line unless a fairly major outfit picks up the licence. What happens to Armorcast now they've gone over to supporting Warzone?

According to comments in the discussion linked to above, Thom has some sort of health crisis.

Plus they blew out both of their casting pots. First time I've heard of that happening…

"What happens to Armorcast now they've gone over to supporting Warzone?"

I was wondering about this myself just yesterday.

Anyway, I can only echo the comments of those who have posted already on this thread. Anything else would just be piling on.

Although everybody knows how much we enjoy a good dogpile here at TMP…

;-)

Later,
Markus

PS. Definition of "dogpile" here link

Just my opinion. The casting pots conveniently "died" when the license was lost. If Thom is sick, it's probably from depression/stress over this whole mess.

Thom is also the guy that helped kill demonblade/xb9.

Officer at trainwreck: "Move along folks – nothing to see here."

Here's hoping they end up in more competent hands.
Mike B. – I'm sorry for what happened. Here's hoping for your compensation, and the commission to sculpt under new ownership.

The casting pots were in bad shape, it's really no surprise that they blew. As for Thom's health, I'm trying to find out myself, but I assure you it wouldn't be from 'depression/stress'. Infact, if such an ailment was the case it would have happened years ago from 'fans' trying to tell him how to run his company.

Making up conspiracy theories and from the hip guesses about Thom's health is not helping this situation one bit, nor is it in anyway respecting a man's serious health issues.

As for the demonblade/xb9 issue, unless you are the other person involved in that mess, I suggest that we step away from it all together. That not only has nothing to do with this, but Thom not being able to respond does not give you a soapbox to take cheap shots at the man.

I wish Thom the best, and the best for Excelsior. If anyone close to Thom can get in touch with me, that would be great.

I own a bunch of warzone stuff, and I like the rules. I would hope the Mongoose Publishing would take it over. Even with Starship Troopers, they would do a great job.

IMO, the real big problem is Paradox. How is possible for this two game had a credible status if Paradox sell either every 5 years to a different company? Now, this two game sound for me like a .

Excelsiors website has for the last 6 months been a mess. Its first page highlights the website, not the game. Its tough to use and there is nothing new on it.
Unfortunately, the website seems to mirror the company.
I hope the game survives.

For me this two games are definetely dead. For make a new edition (new mini and new artworks) a company spead same money for doing a new game (without the bad Chronopia and WZ past)

Concerning Thom: I certainly hope he recovers his health. Perhaps without the added stress of the hobby industry, his rcovery will procced faster.

I don't think however it was from players telling him how to run his company; the company didn't appear to be really going anywhere.

I certainly wish the game and it's followers all the best for the future. If it resurfaces in a credible fashion, I'll look into it again. Until then, there's plenty of other games to spend my money on.

@eyesweldedopen, I was making no attempt at creating a conspiracy theory. I started my statement by stating it was just my opinion for a reason. One of the main reasons I stopped going to the Excelsior forums two years ago was because of Earp- and Talamini-fanboys like you and Topkick, always ready to jump down the throats of detractors who didn't tow yours and the EE line. Hope you fellas are happy with the results.

The Company did seem to take too little stock in some of the decent advice given to them. I know for a fact that qualified individuals volunteered to help edit the mess that was the UWZ rulebook. They were ignored, as were most of the suggestions given to them even when solicited. Since Thom always seemed to know better. That's only one example of many. If you make bad business decisions then be prepared to live with the results and stop making excuses.

It really could have been different.

Oh well. Time to move on with the new Company.

John

I think the reselling and subsequent restart will completely kill off both games. I mean, who's going to be purchasing Super Gnarly Really Ultimate Ultimate Warzone Beta vol. 4?
I have enough painted figures for four armies by Ultimate Warzone so I'll still be able to play the game but whatever company ends up with the titles is going to have a hell of a time trying to knock my socks off to get me invest any further money into the titles.
Excelsior got all the business I could give them and it's a shame to see the title getting yanked but I'd be lying if I said Excelsior did an absolutely stellar job with the titles. We'll see what happens, but I think it's the final nail in the coffin as Paradox seems to make a living reselling the IP of Chronopia and Warzone every few years.

I don't want to comment too much on EE. I had heard about the casting pots issue the weekend of Jan. 20th. A lot of unfortunate events happened to EE, and reflecting back doesn't matter much now if the IP license is going elsewhere.

I would like to agree with John Leahy except there is something else to consider. A majority of the existing fan base (in my anecdotal opinion) is saturated with figures. I bring little to the table to support a new version in terms of spending money. I have plenty of Chronopia and Warzone armies. I don't see myself replacing my old stuff and that doesn't help a company looking to profit on a legacy product line.

My free advice to any company picking up Warzone/Chronopia or to EE if they manage to retain the IP in the 11th hour, would be an affordable plastic box set with very detailed miniatures, a simple rules system playable as a boardgame or with additional rules as a tabletop miniatures game. I'm essentially saying start over with a newer version of Siege of the Citadel and build from there. It would be even better if the miniatures boardgame followed the release of a movie and computer game with the same imagery using Doom as an example. Just my opinion and we all know what free advice is worth.

I can't imagine any company being foolish enough to invest in a whole new line of figures for this game. New sculpts-old sculpts-it really wouldn't matter. The poster who said the market is saturated w/figures for this game is right. The only way you could hope to profit off the line is to come up with something entirely new for the Warzone world. Like Hive city/gangland warfare….etc. But using the old corporations and such is sure fire road to disaster. Plus, you have molds floating around. Maybe a space combat game-like full thrust? I know in some of the fiction they talk of Venus having oceans w/fleets and such. Tank battles? Maybe an epic style game?? You could do a game off those ideas.

But lets be honest, anyone with the money to create a game of any value-could create one without all the baggage these games carry. Heck, most of the fun comes from creating the world setting.

I do agree with the poster who talked about how difficult the Ultimate Warzone was to read. There were pages in that book that were unreadable, because of the background graphics. There are tons of new hot games out nowadays. There isn't a whole lot of need for these games. It would take a monster effort to get anyone to buy into a new version of either game. However, I did always want to see the Epic style Chronpia game Target was producing before their demise.
Patrick

I for one intend to keep playing both Warzone and Chronopia. A lot of people have been saying that they love the game and are sorry to see it go. If you love it keep playing regardless of whether the license is picked up or not.

At least one person has seen fit to single me out as the reason they left the forum. I have admited to my contributions to the acrimonious attitudes on the old Paradox Forums. In fact I am the only person to do so. I am also the only person to attempt to change my attitude. Others have just migrated to other pastures and continued to heap vitrol at Excelsior.

Was Excelsior the paragon of business acumen in their efforts to develop Warzone and Chronopia? No. There is no need to rehash the list of mis-steps that have plagued the company. John has already eloquently related them and others have seen fit to expound on the topic in more emotional verbage.

Target left behind a myriad of problems when they folded and some of these problems were beyond the ability of a small company like Excelsior to overcome. Excelsior added their own miscues to the roster, true – but Thom and Co. stepped up to the plate and tried.

For John and the guys that offered advice and were rebuffed, maybe the next company will be more to your liking. I hope so. You have been for the most part patient and you deserve to see your visions of the game to have a chance. For the guys that have baited me and the other fan-boys with "Excelsior sucks and so do you" comments wihtout offering constructive criticism or an alternate approach, now is your chance. Mortgage your house and put everything dear to you on the line to show us you actually did know more than Excelsior. I'm betting that you'll just wait and heap abuse on the next company brave enough to try.

eyesweldedopen said<As for the demonblade/xb9 issue, unless you are the other person involved in that mess, I suggest that we step away from it all together. That not only has nothing to do with this, but Thom not being able to respond does not give you a soapbox to take cheap shots at the man.>

None of these shot are cheap I personally know 2 people that lost thousands of dollars to Thom. None the less I wish him good health and hope that he can get his life in order

@nudspinespittle,
Fans like me? I was the one that had to find a middle ground and play crowd control over petty arguments on the internet. Instead of casting figures, making molds or shipping orders,hours were wasted picking through posts. The truth is we hated the drama either pro or con Excelsior; it was distracting and just down right stupid. When we didn't pay enough attention to the net, we wern't communicating enough. When we did, shops were wondering where there orders were. There was only so much time in a day. So many people that worked. I worked my ass off. Thom did, and Lance certainly did. A lot of people through the years did. It was frustrating. But please, tell me again how I am a fanboy that infringed upon your opinion.

@Iconoclast
granted, I don't think this is the place to talk about such issues. Excelsior losing the warzone/chronopia titles has nothing do with anything Xb9, unless we see those liciences open up again. Let it die man.

eyesweldedopen you are right this is not the time or place to bring up any old BS. We should be doing what we can to find out if Thom's going to be OK eventually and to give him as much support as possible. If you find out anything please keep us posted.

Drama follows those who bring it upon themselves. Funny how other companies don't have such issues. Usually it's just standard fanboys vs detractors, but I have to say when you see Thom Talamini involved there is always something more. I've personally seen his hand in three ventures where he came out okay but his partners lost their shorts. It can't be coincidence after the first time.

If a new company steps up and buys the Chronopia liscense, I don't have much interest in anything other than new releases.

I have a complete (PAINTED!!! Very rare, for me) Devout army, with at least one of nearly every miniature released for the faction, plus multiples of every unit.

Part of the reason I was frustrated by EE's tendency to only release individuals was that I could only buy one model at a time – I wanted to buy 2 units of Dusk Realm Warriors, but instead I ended up buying one Shadow Stalker. And so on.

I still play the game, occasionally, and I'm very curious about its future. I never bought those new Devout Risen archers, and I still want to, but if the casting machines are broke then I can't, because EE won't be able to cast them up…

*sigh*

I wish Thom the best, and I wish the game the best. I guess I'll have to wait and see what happens.

-Alex

Oh, yeah, and I was going (on that second sentence) to mention that I agree with the earlier statement that the fan base is already flooded with models.

In addition to my Devout, I've got full Elven and Stygian armies, plus a bunch of dwarves that I thought looked cool. There isn't anything left for me to buy that I'm interested in buying… so new releases are what I'm looking for from a new liscense holder.

Maybe I'll buy resculpts of old crappy looking figs (like the Devout Swordsmen… *bleah*), but mostly I want those holes in the lines, that have been holes for 6+ years, filled.

NINE years! It's been nine years and two companies and there are STILL no figures for some of the entries in the original rulebook!

"The only way you could hope to profit off the line is to come up with something entirely new for the Warzone world. Like Hive city/gangland warfare….etc. "

Kinda like what Urban Mammoth did for their Void line via Urban War? Better sculpts, different game, same setting.

Later,
Markus

['I know Warzone and Chronopia have a devoted following but I think that is shrinking with only a few diehards to keep it going. Well let's hope for the best.'

"Well, I believe you are completely wrong. There are a large number of Warzone fans worldwide. The universe is well developed. A huge range of figures exists. "]

You can say I am wrong all you like John, but the fact of the matter, at least in my part of the world is the game is dead. Lots of folks have tried to sell off painted armies and can't give them away. I travel a fair amount and stop at gaming stores all along the East Coast of the USA and either folks do not play the game or I see the figures gathering dust in discount bins. The only store that even carried the line in my area sold all their vast stock on ebay at a loss. (I might add said store soon went out of business but that is another story )

You might of noticed that I did agree that it was a good game and yes the background was well done. Both Warzone and Chronopia could have given 40K and Warhammer a run for their money many years ago. I'm sure there are those who will continue to play the games with their minis for years to come. The hard fact is without renewed material, miniatures, supplements , etc. the game will fade from any kind of manistream wargaming. It has in my area and in many others and that is just the sad truth regardless if you feel differently to what I have stated.

Because I have been unable to sell off my miniature I have considered rebasing them and using them for Warhammer or for a home rules game. Which is about all they are good for at this time without any active Chronopia gamers in my area.

'nuff said

Kim

Topkick – did you get my reply to your email?

Thanks,
Markus

Hi. I'm not saying the game in its current incarnation isn't doing well. Simply that given the right support the game can regain its place in the sun. Sure, maybe a conversion like Void may need to happen. I don't know. But the fact that there are still some fans out there and loads more who own figs means that there is a potential base. how many folks wouldn't care to play a decent game which they already have figs for? Use that as a hook to get folks interested. then bring out some good new sculpts to bring them into the game even more.

Thanks,

John

Should be IS doing well.

Oops.

John

Markus

Yes I did and I am talking to a couple of my friends aobut buying the lot and dividing it among us – I hope to have an answer by Wednesday. Is that okay?

Topkick – perfectly fine!

Later,
Markus

The original Target/Heartbreaker version of the game was great but was mismanaged until it died- I was one of the 'Freelancers' for them. Locally we were able to make the game so successful that for weeks it tied or beat the GW sales in the store we worked out of… and when they made the shift from 'well priced' minis to GW comparable priced minis they 'coincidentally' went out of business later that year…

The EE version fell far short of what Target/Heartbreaker did before they tanked. I never got on board with playing it but followed it to see how it went- considering how 'far' they came with their promises to make it a better game I was unimpressed. Locally Junkrunner had some success with it with his gaming group so I am a little dissapointed to see it's 'second coming' flame out so fast. I can't see many people giving it a third chance but who knows?

As far as this Thom fellow stealing sculpts- boo. I have no sympathy for someone who takes a green all the way to production and still can't find the money to pay the sculptor???

One can live in hope.

Afterall, my Imperial and Brotherhhod armies will never get used otherwise.

I can't say I ever saw a copy of UWZ in a shop.

As for stealing a sculpt and ripping off Mike, that is truely shocking.

As for stealing a sculpt and ripping off Mike that is an unsubstantiated accusation. I have no idea as to it's validity and neither does anyone else but Mike and Thom. However everyone is ready to condemn Thom.

As for armies not getting used – there are 3 editions of the rules floating around. Pick the one that you enjoy the most and play. Proxy units that were never sculpted and enjoy the game. Everyone acts as if playing Warzone and/or Chronopia is a crime because the license was pulled. That makes no sense to me.

"As for stealing a sculpt and ripping off Mike that is an unsubstantiated accusation. I have no idea as to it's validity and neither does anyone else but Mike and Thom. However everyone is ready to condemn Thom."

Didn't Matt Gubser say the same thing? I mean really-either Mike got paid or he didn't.

"Everyone acts as if playing Warzone and/or Chronopia is a crime because the license was pulled. That makes no sense to me."

I agree. A fun game-is a fun game. However, for the most part, gamers usually stick to games which are recieving support from the company. I don't agree that that should be true, but it is. The players at most gamestores that I go to won't play dead games. No one wants to invest in a system which no one will be playing in 6 months. It is sad, but it is true.

I guess I am the exception to the rule – I play Necromunda, Warzone, Chronopia, Planetstorm, and Legions of Steel.

As for what Mike, Matt, or ayone else says – I was brought up and have seen complete scuzballs be allowed the courtesy of "Innocent til Proven Guilty" so forgive me if I apply it to someone I am friends with and trust.

"Everyone acts as if playing Warzone and/or Chronopia is a crime because the license was pulled. That makes no sense to me."

I agree. A common problem is when players can't agree on which version to play. Groups then fragment or stop playing that game (in any version) in favor of something else everyone will want to play. As a result players may gravitate to a totally new game system or an old game with only one version of the rules.

My group tried to rework the few problems we perceived with 2nd Edition using house rules but our interest faltered due to time and friendly disagreements on what the problems were. And some of us, myself for one, weren't interested in moving to a third version of the rules in the format they were in. We even attempted to use the genre with a third party game system, but that was shown to be time intensive and making stats by commitee is again open to disagreement.

Good points Goldwyrm. I can see where those things would get in the way. I guess the only fix would be to identify the problem areas ahead of time and agree on the fixes before playing. But that takes up game time and I have discovered that I as I get older I have too little of that as is. Thank God all the games I play are acceptable to me and my group as is.

As if being a fanboy and cheerleader weren't enough, now you are playing devil's advocate as well…. Just drop your act and stop thinking everyone else who's not in your camp is just a fool or misinformed or both.

I'll take Mike's word the very moment he types it and goes it public on any fora. Thom did talk a lot and showed very little in many occasions. I'm sure many people will do the same as me. It's all about building a reputation and earning respect.

Thom might have health issues, granted, but I'm sure Mike's sculpture made it to Thom's offices way before the UWZ no-sales debacle and most certainly his recent ailment. So that puts you in rather unpleasant position as you are just making yourself look like nothing else than yesman who will go to any length to defend your 2pet company/company head", Topkick.

Just let it all go… Excelsior holds the licenses no more. There's no need to clarify anything done or not done by EE, to justify major mishaps and blatant mistakes of judgement, and in attempting to mistify the "non-belivers" with tall tales of integrity and bigger-than-life entrepreneurial achivement against all odds.

They had the licenses, they failed to make their set goals come to fruition, and lost the rights to try again.

That's business. Your sympathy won't change that fact, and will certainly not demerit Mike's statement of not having being paid for the sculpt ONE BIT.

Stop the blind cheerleading, please.