"Command Decision or Flames of War?" Topic

With OG having the 40% off sale I decided to plunge into 15mm WWII gaming. I'm not sure what rule set to get into though. I was thinking of getting Command Decision 3 rules but I noticed they were done by Frank Chadwick. I have his Dwarf Wars books and think they are absolutley terrible although the concept is great, so I'm hesitent to buy anything else the guy has done. Is Flames of War a better game, it seems more popular? Can I use the same figures and basing for both games?
Thanks,

pigmentedminiatures.com

I like CD (since version 1.0). Scenario driven, detail when and where you need it (Engineering, weather, etc.) and with the newest version (Yahoo group) mechanics are streamlined.

Frank has done some awesome rules over the years (most of the GDW library), Dwarf Wars may not have been his best effort.

Drop me a line, and I'll set up a game in Sheridan next weekend.

Mike

Hello PM:

They are very different games. IN FoW each stand is one vehicle or squad, while in CD each stand is a platoon. Basing is very different. CD uses 20x20mm bases for most units and a vehicle is a platoon of 5. So in FoW you command a company, while in CD you command a couple battalions.

FoW is great fun and very popular so finding opponents should be easy. The FoW basing will work with other rules sets, such as I Ain't Been Shot Mum, and others. I've read CD and it looks good. I think it would have a sharp learning curve though. And I don't like rules where the battalion commander has to make ammo choices, but I'm not sure I see a way around it…

I never really cared for CD, but the rules do have a very good TO&E book. As stated above, two very different games. CD is probably more "realistic" while FOW plays faster. I'm leaning towards Blitzkrieg Commander myself, which I think will give me the balance I am looking for in a WWII game. There are many WWII rule sets out there, so don't think you have to pick CD or FOW, because six differnt guys can recommend six different sets of rules. You might want to check the "WWII Land" message board because there are a number of threads on various rules.

I've played CD all the way from 1 to 3. They are very well written rule sets, I think the Dwarf Wars set is an aberration for Frank, but standard for any produced by Old Glory. I personally do not like the FOW rules, but if you are new they are a fine place to start. They are very easy to read and grasp the concepts. I can heartily recommend Blitzkrieg Commander as they are also suitable for a newbie and provide an absolutely cracking gaming experience as will RapidFire2 which is also easily accessible for a newcomer. However, if you are looking only at CD or FOW I would recommend FOW.

You have no idea the can of worms you have opened with your question : )

Asking folks on these boards what rule set to go with will bring you a long list of possibilities. The fact that Flames of War is mentioned means the FOW-bashers will also weigh in. Then again, maybe they won't.

Here are 10 rule sets to consider:

BlitzkriegCommander
Command Decision
Disposable Heroes/Coffin For Seven Brothers
Flames of War
I Ain't Been Shot Mum
Mein Panzer
Nuts!
Rapid Fire
Spearhead
The Face of Battle

You didn't mention the scale of gaming you are interested in. Do you want 1 figure to equal 1 soldier or tank? Or perhaps 3-4 figures on a base to equal a platoon? Do you want to control a single squad and play at skirmish level? Or control a battalion of forces?

Here's my thumbnail analysis of three:

Flames of War. Beautifully done books (and many of them). Lots of terrific photos. They are often compared to Games Workshop in their approach (main rulebook, then army books for different nations and different periods of the war). Plays reasonably fast. By that I mean you can game in 2-3 hours. Figures are 1:1, with 3-5 figures being half a squad, so six stands of infantry plus a command stand equal to a platoon of three squads. It's IGOUGO, no command or control rules.

I Ain't Been Shot Mum is also 1:1, but it's card activated, so the order in which units move is random each turn. Makes it impossible to plan out your turn like a chess move, keeps things iffy. A special card ends the turn right then and there, so you can't even count on every unit doing something every turn. There is one rulebook, and four supplements (covering early and later war years, plus the Med theater and the Pacific Theater). All are available as downloadable pdfs so this is much cheaper to get the "full set of rules" to play the entire war (compard to FOW).

BlitzkriegCommander is just a single book. No add ons or supplements. The rules take up the first 40 or so pages, the rest of the book contains army listings and stats for all the troops. It's a step up from 1:1, the stands represent platoons, so you maneuver several companies or more in a typical game. Again, they play relatively quickly, 2-3 hours for a game.

I could go on, but I'll let others provide thumbnails of those.

As to your basing question, many/most of these sets support whatever basing you have. I am basing mine on FOW and they are perfectly fine for use in the other two listed above. And I'm sure the bulk of the remaining rules will also fully support FOW-style basing.

What's important isn't the base size but consistency. If my platoon takes up a 4" x 4" square and yours takes up 2" x 2" we will have issues. If we both use the same sized stands then no matter the game, we should be good to go.

Skirmish level games would obviously be better off with individually based figures, but I didn't pick out any skirmish level games to describe because your original question appears to be aimed at a higher level of play.

There is also I Ain't Been Shot, Mum! from Too Fat Lardies.

Like FoW it is a Company level game.

Tim

Thanks for all the help everyone! I guess I did sorta open a can of worms Seatlegamer! I been a fantasy player for the past 20 years and am just now getting into playing historics and realy had no idea that there was so many differant games for it out there. Since I posted I've gotten a few emails to play some games so I'm going to give them a try and see what I like.

If you're new to WWII wargaming, FoW is not a bad place to start and here's why:

1) FoW makes creating an army rather easy and there is a lot of hand holding.

2) It's easy to get FoW opponents in most areas

3) FoW basing is rather transportable. Regardless of the "offical" base size in other games, you could play Crossfire, Command Decision, etc. I know, because I have.

So, start with FoW and then move on when you want more realism.

Being an "old hand," I will offer the usual Old Guy advice:

Find out what others in your area are playing. This way you can at least get started playing and learning what you like and don't like. Find your local HMGS chapter (assuming you're from the US) and see if they can hook you up. Where are you at?

That said, you'll probably get FOW players, because it's popular. After all, it has large, professional marketing and advertising departments, unlike other rules sets. So it's out there and easy to access. I don't like it very much as a game, but I'd rather play that than nothing.

If you were in my area, I'd suggest starting with Flames of War because the materials are so easily available. But you should also remember that rules are cheap in comparison, and most use similar basing schemes to FoW — even if they're not exactly equal, they're close enough where you should still be OK.

And I'd add Crossfire to SeattleGamer's list. It's different from the rest in that you move until you're pinned or "fail" a shooting roll — think of the way pool works, where you shoot until you don't sink a ball. It can be used with FoW basing, as the units of measure are the bases themselves.

To me having to pick between FoW or CD is sort like trying to pick which form of suicide is best: a shotgun or a large caliber handgun…

(shudder on both counts)

But if you want to get into a game that has a large following then I'd so FoW should beat CD everytime.

As others have said though there are a large number of rulesets to choose. Play a few at a con before choosing any one of them.

There is an ongoing debate in my neighborhood between the FOW and CD players. Based on my experience FOW's company level is fun and fast and fairly accurate if playing a historical based game the game system produces results that are more often than not similar to history. FOW has the best web site and is clearly an internet savvy company. On the other hand CD plays larger units through selective compression (i.e. 1 tank represents 3 tanks) and allows for the more grand strategy. It plays slower and is less intense. The best comparison is FOW is modeled on checkers and CD is more like chess. Personally I like to play both but in starting out with FOW and its supporting web site with all the bells and whistles is the better start up game.

_____ __ ___ <—- That's the result of the obligatory bashing of FoW. Now, to proceed…

Some very fine recommendations here. I generally prefer games which cast the player in the role of a battalion-to-brigade-level commander, and which give him the appropriate resources to conduct the battle. I am less taken with games which cast him as a company commander, and then give him the ability to draw on assets which the division commander may never see. But untimately, that's down to individual or group style of play.

As so many have said, FoW has the virtue of popularity, so you can more easily find an opponent. Also as suggested, its basing system allows forces (with careful selection) to be used in other 1:1 games, or for a single fire-team stand to portray an infantry platoon in a higher-level game. It's not a bad place to start.

It is hard to beat the amount of information provided in the Command Decision support materials, although these are fading away. They're useful for constructing orders of battle for a nation or period another system may not cover.

My personal favorites du jour:
- I Ain't Been Shot, Mum! for 1:1
- Blitzkrieg Commander for battalion-to-brigade.

Both feel right to me, leading me to make the appropriate decisions for the level of command. ANd both can be played just fine with forces based for FoW.

Allen

As a long time "Old School" CD player, I'll say Command Decision.

If you want a game for which you can easily find an opponent, Flames of War.

As noted above there are MANY choices out there.

Ray

I play both FOW and Command Decision (and probably 4 or 5 other rules mentioned in this thread) and can have fun with both. I think that it is worth reading through several sets of rules and pick the one that emphasizes what you think is important.

Duncan

If you want a smaller game, I wouldn't rule out PBI from Peter Pig too.

Ouzr own beginner set (And in the beginning) is not so well known, but remains a steady seller. We are currently in the process of upgrading it to FEBA+ standard.

Piggie said "I guess I did sorta open a can of worms Seatlegamer! I been a fantasy player for the past 20 years and am just now getting into playing historics and realy had no idea that there was so many differant games for it out there."

Yes indeed. I know this because I was a board gamer for 35 years and a fantasy minis gamer for the past 10. Decided almost a year ago to get into WWII minis gaming and discovered what happens when you check out past threads or ask the questions. Lots of great info in here, and when you have something specific (like "What are the basing requirements ofr X game") you can get quick answers.

But open-ended "Which set is good?" will often get you buried under a ton of helpful yet contradictory posts, because there really are probably a score of rules out there that will get mentioned.

I compiled a list of these, have researched many, have purchased quite a few, and can see that they each have their strengths and weaknesses. The best "fit" for you really depends on what you want.

As an experiment, I would say you should list the following three items (I've provided examples as to what is meant):

1) Scale (skirmish, platoon, company, battalion)
2) Speed of Play (2 hours, 4 hours, 6 hours+
3) Detail (tanks have 1 armor value, tanks have different armor values for front, side, rear and top, tank armor is given in millimeters and the angle of attack is a factor).

Based on your answers to those three, the rules list can be pared back some, probably revealing a top 3-4 that might fit that category, but it's still a personal call from there.

I think a game is more interesting if there are command and control issues. So BlitzkriegCommander and I Ain't Been Shot Mum would edge out Flames of War because the later has no control issues. But all three would fit a company level, plays in 2 hours, moderate level of complexity wish list. Which is why I own all three. : )

And others as well. : )

You just never know kind of game you might be in the mood for.

It really does come down to personal preference. One of the best ways to make a choice is to play in games with different rules. See if there is a convention, even a small one, in your area or maybe a game club or group which may meet at your local hobby shop. All these summaries are excellent and can help you narrow down your choices. For example you might have a preference for 1:1 skirmish style so Command Decision might not be the best choice. Another good way, if you cant find groups who play the various rules, is to check out the websites of the particular game you are interested in or look for an interest group on Yahoo. Here you are looking for replay reports which can give you some of the flavor of the rules. It also gives you a natural forum to ask specific questions or rules interpretations.

'Battlefront: WWII' (by Fire & Fury Games – not to be confused with other similarly-named products).

fireandfury.com

I started playing this beauty seven years ago and have never looked back – it is simply superb.

If 1:1 is your area of interest then check out Panzer Miniature Rules.

Scale: The vehicle and towed-gun scale is 1:1 with infantry at squad, 1/2 squad and section level.

It has one of the most comprehensive and detailed armor modeling systems (while still very simple to play). The rules cover the full gamut of WWII aspects including, command control, initiative, morale, grade, and even ground attack aircraft. Each weapon system is presented on its own full-color data card – no need to fill out weapon sheets.

The streamlined chit-based command system moves the action along at a brisk pace, getting players quickly into the action.

The available TO&E information (German and Russian Eastern Front and USA Western Front so far) is one of the most detailed and extensive out there – down to the individual unit level.

Find it at: lostbattalion.com

If you want to suspend any notion of reality but like pretty picyures try FOW if you want something well written with more than a nod to history try CD ( there you go a very mild FoW bash) Or try before you buy and see which set you like most.