"Compare/Contrast: Full Thrust vs. Attack Vector" Topic

Can anyone give me the lowdown on the differences/similarities between Full Thrust and Attack Vector? I've read about each, and seen brief demos, but I'm interested in what you guys think of each system.

(Note: This is a question from Paul Chapman the Gamer, not Paul Chapman the Employee of SJG, so don't read anything into the question :)

Thanks!

Paul Chapman

Full Thrust is buttered toast and Attack Vector is prime rib.

Full thrust is a game and Attack Vector is a simulation.

I really like both, but it comes down to what I'm in the mood for.

I will also note that I do some artwork for AV. So read whatever bias in you desire, although I do it for free so there's no incentive for me to sell copies. :)

If you'd like I will go ahead and post my thoughts but you might rather have that of someone 'uninvolved'

Q

Whats attack vector? I've never heard of it. Who's it by?

As far as FT I like it a lot, but I have to admit I'd like it a lot better if the current rules (FT2.5) weren't spread out accross Full Thrust, More Thrust, and Fleet Book 1.
The rules are simple, fun, and really, since its sci-fi, thats whats most important, since realism isn't an issue.
I suppose you could say that FT is a bit like OGRE in that regard.

Hrmm. I've played FT for Many, Many years now. I've never played Attack Vector however.

FT is the finest Space Combat game I have ever played. You can play large fleets easily. The system is Very simple to play and building large complex vessels is a snap.

The Rules (Plus More Thrust Expansion) cover vessels ranging in size from tiny Escort vessels up to Massive SuperDreadnaughts and Attack Carriers. Weapons in the system range from 4 levels of beam weapons to Nuclear Missiles, Pulse Torpedoes, Plasma Weapons, Expendable Submunition Racks, Point Defense, Area Defense, Needle Beams, etc, etc. Fighters, Bombers, Superiority Fighters.

Also interfaces with Dirtside II, a VERY fun 1/300 scale Hammer's Slammers-style miniatures wargame.

FT allows free use of "cinematic" and/or Newtonian movement (We mixed them when we did Babylon 5 games)

Jon Tuffley, the Head Honcho of Ground Zero Games is a wonderful fellow and I have found him to be delightfully willing to answer questions and submit new ideas to the wargame community to try out and give feedback.

Hope this helps!

(BTW I'm in Austin too! Maybe I'll run a FT game for the Lone Star Historic Miniatures club in town)

I don't know how much info you'll get on Attack Vector here, since it's not even available yet... As I understand it, the "beta" version had limited availability under the name "Delta-V". You may consider visiting the Ad Astra Games web site and their message boards for info on AV.

My opinions below, noting that I'm a fan of FT and a playtester for AV.

Full Thrust is a very nice, clean, miniatures game. Nothing particularly new, but a very well done presentation. It's good for games that feel like the later seasons of B5, for example. Or possibly from Classic Traveller.

Attack Vector (formerly called Delta V last year), is an attempt to create a board game with real vector physics and true 3D maneuver. It's emphasis is on real physics, in the ships, their capabilities, and their weapons. It has several innovations:

1) thrust follows real physics, with s=1/2at^2. This means, in English, that if you thrust to get a velocity of four hexes/turn, you'll only move 2 hexes the first turn. I don't know of any other game that does this; even FT has 'full' acceleration.

2) Thrust is also set up such that as you accelerate, the displacements occur later in the turn, and increasingly more often as you keep the engines firing. It's the first game where I felt like I had ship flying in broad spiral curves rather than short straight-line segments.

3) mechanisms are in place for real 3D facings. If you're thrusting straight up, and the opponent is 3 levels lower than you, executing a roll while pivoting to a vertical orientation to follow you, you can *quickly* tell what weapons of his bear, and which side of your ship would be hit.

You can find out more about the setting, and get involved with the playtesting, at the Attack Vector website: adastragames.com

So, which one do I prefer? Yes. I like both; each has it's time and place for me. Large fleet battles and typical sci-fi combat goes to FT. If I'm interested in a game of combat between two ships, or a small task group, where pre-planning, timing, and calculated risks are involved, then I go with AV.

Note, Full Thrust is a true freeform miniatures game, on a tabletop or equivalent. Attack Vector is currently a hex grid based boardgame with miniatures planned; there is also talk about a set of additional rules that will allow gamers to drop the hexgrid.

Bob

I saw Attack Vector at Origins. In my opinion playability took a back seat. It looked like too much work for my tastes. I like fullthrust a lot. I've played a lot of space games in the last 20 years and that one is the only one that keeps my attention.

--Peter

Full Thrust is buttered toast and Attack Vector is prime rib.

Full thrust is a game and Attack Vector is a simulation.

I really like both, but it comes down to what I'm in the mood for.

I will also note that I do some artwork for AV. So read whatever bias in you desire, although I do it for free so there's no incentive for me to sell copies. :)

If you'd like I will go ahead and post my thoughts but you might rather have that of someone 'uninvolved'

Q

I've played FT for years and while it's generally a good game it has some problems. It has two areas of imbalance, and they are generally acknowledged by the FT braintrust. The first is that large numbers of fighters become far more powerful than their cost reflects especially with homebrew designs. The second is that large ships are disproportionately powerful for their cost; meaning that if you take x points worth of small ships, and one mega capital ship worth x points, the capital ship will, for the most part, win handily.

With regards to AV, I saw a flyer on it at Gen Con 2001, and it looks interesting, but like all games that attempt to model real Newtonian physics, it's going to have problems with scaling the size of battle simply due to bookkeeping

OK, I'll restate what others have said but in my own way ;-)

Full Thrurst is a FLEET game made to simulate most universes. A player can control 15 or more ships and the game finishes in an evening. Much of the game is abstracted, there is no power allocation, beam weapons (phasers, lazers, slicers, etc) are combined to a generic 'beam battery'. It is 2D, on an open table, no hexes.
Yes there are some holes in the rules but a complied 3rd Edition fixing everything possible and combining everything in 1 book, is in the works, just don't as when as GZG is a very small operation.

Attack Vector (formerly Delta V) is an outgrowth of an attempt to make Star Fleet Battles fit hard science. Ken Burnside has done an extraordinary job making this game as realistic as possible while hiding all the hard math and making true 3D playable. Still AV is more complex than FT, there are many more decision points, but as a result, you do have much more control over exactly what happens.

FT - You are the Admiral - Science Fiction, Science Fantasy

AV - You are the Captain and crew - Hard Science

First off Love FT . thanks Jon.

Is AV like the old FASA game "Last star fighter"? I have it and its one of the funnest games to play in a asteriod field , were the asteriods are moving. lots of busted ships if you don't work it out right . Plus a killer ship sheet . the only ones that I've played the protrays damage effect on ship systems in a realistic manner. but I'm off the subject.
I've played full thrust with vector movement , great deal of fun , it's just a game that you can do just about anything.

How PLAYABLE is AV?

I have played several 3D vector based space games in the past and they all leave me with a headache...and several ships in small pieces on various chunks of space rock.

Full Thrust came as a godsend in that I could run a fleet action in an evening.

I'm not a huge fan of the Tuffleyverse itself (mainly cos I like to make up my own) and have run FT in numerous universes.

So how many slide rules and calculators do I need for AV? Why can't I have a ship with a computer that can work this out for me?

Thanks everyone! You've given me just the info I was looking for.

Paul