"Fanions for Old Guard?" Topic

Someone was recently asking about eagles, and I mentioned that , from what I have read, in 1815 at least, only the 1st Grenadiers and 1st Chasseurs had eagles. Now I'm wondering if the other OG regiments/battalions had fanions, and if so were they of the same pattern as line fanions? Anyone know? (Hope so as it'll give me something to do with some excess OG flag-bearers I have.)

Hi

To the best of my Knowledge, each Regiment had one eagle, always carried by 1st btn, this holds true for the OG as well. The rest carried fanions of a more or less elaborate design. IIRC the OG had regulation fanions, not too sure on that, though.

Greetings
Festus

Do you have a reference for Imperial Guard fanions?

Festus:

North's Foot Regiments of the Imperial Guard (p. 111) says that in 1815 the OG received only 2 eagles: 1 for the 1st Grenadiers and 1 for the 1st Chasseurs a Pied. It also says "No infantry regiment of the Middle or Young Guards was issued with an Eagle or a Colour. Nearly all of these units belonged either to the corps of Grenadiers or to the Chasseurs and in a sense therefore bore allegiance through the Eagles of these arms. However, there is no doubt that most or all of these junior regiments possessed battalion pennons though unfortunately little evidence of their size, design or color remains today."

It cites, also, a letter from N. to Besseires, commanding the Guard, on 10 March 1812 ordering that every Guard battalion was to have a fanion, red for Voltigeurs and white for Tiraleurs, but with nothing written on them to identify that they belonged to the Guard. It doesn't say (because North probably didn't know) if these were carried in 1815, not does it clarify the status of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Grenadiers and Chasseurs. I was hoping someone might have better info. If not, I guess I'm free to make up my own fanions for them.

Thanks for answering.

Guard infantry received eagles as follows:

1st Grenadiers. 5 Dec 04 – 2 Model 1804 eagles. Only one was carried from 1809 by the 1st battalion.
2nd Grenadiers. 15 Aug 11 – 1 Model 1804 eagle.
3rd (Dutch) Grenadiers. 30 Jun 11 – 1 Model 1804 eagle

1st Chasseurs. 5 Dec 04 – 2 Model 1804 eagles. Only one was carried from 1807 by the 1st battalion.
2nd Chasseurs. 15 Aug 11 – 1 Model 1804 eagle.

No other Guard infantry received eagles and I have not seen any references to Old Guard infantry fanions.

1st Grenadiers and 1st Chasseurs were presented with 1 Model 1815 eagle each.

JC

Aren't fanions a fair assumption?
Given the importance of a colour to facilitate drill & to provide a rallying point, isn't it hard to imagine any unit without something?
regards etc, donald

I have had a close look at this issue and there is a mention of Old Guard fanions, so I offer this which is about all I have on the subject.

Napoleon wrote to Berthier on 11 March 1812:

"It is necessary that the Guard carries its flags (drapeaux). The chasseur arm will have only one eagle, the grenadier arm will have one one eagle always carried to the 1st regiment of Old Guard of each arm. The Grenadiers à Cheval will have only one eagle, the Chevau légers will not have an eagle. Give the order to the colonels to provide the fanions which each battalion must have. The voltigeurs will have red fanions and the tirailleurs white fanions. These fanions will not bear anything which indicates to which regiment they belong, nor that it belongs to the Guard."

This letter is ambiguous and talks about flags (drapeaux) and eagles, and fanions for Young Guard regiments. It appears that the Young Guard infantry have no flags or fanions of any description at this stage, as it is ordered that they be provided, and that the Old Guard are to carry their drapeaux as well as their eagles. The Chasseurs à Cheval are not mentioned.

The eagles were with the 1 battalion/squadron of the respective regiments. The others may have been left in regimental depots in 1812 or possibly remained in the Tuileries where the Guard eagles were normally kept. The records of Young Guard regiments certainly mention a port-drapeau but as these regiments received neither eagles nor drapeau, they probably allude to fanions.

As far as Guard fanions are concerned, in theory they were supposed to be tricolors for the old guard, blue for the fusiliers, white for the tirailleurs, red for the voltigeurs and yellow for the flanquers. However, very few of these fanions are left and a surviving fanion (56cm x 65cm) belonging to the 5th Tirailleur-Grenadiers is red and bears the regimental identity. Similarly, a surviving fanion (67cm x 66cm) taken at Krasnoi in 1812 and attributed to 1er Voltigeurs is crimson whilst one (100cm x 90cm) taken at Kulm in 1813 belonging to 13e Voltigeurs is white. So, it would appear that there were variations on the theme and only generalisations are possible as far as appearance of fanions of other regiments is concerned.

I do not know of any surviving Old Guard infantry fanions.

On 25 December 1811, Napoleon decreed that the fanions for line battalions would be 80cm x 100cm and of different colours for each battalion, white, red, blue, green and yellow through 2nd to 6th battalions. In response to a question about fanions for squadrons of line cavalry regiments, Napoleon replied on 31 January 1812 that they were to carry nothing. The line infantry fanions were to be plain, without fringes, ornamentation or cravats but surviving examples, which might pre-date the decree regulating fanions, show that several line regiments had a number of fanion designs unique to themselves.

Turning to whether a battalion must have some kind of 'flag' or not, for whatever reason, it seems that a 'flag' was not essential and Prussian fusilier battalions are but one example.

JC

>"As far as Guard fanions are concerned, in theory they were supposed to be tricolors for the old guard…"<

So these would be plain, unadorned French tricolors on a plain pole (no eagle)?

This is difficult and requires a degree of extrapolation.

The decree of February 1808 reducing the eagles to one per battalion also stated that each service battalion (bataillon de geurre) would have an ensign (enseigne). When the discussion of the design of these ensigns started in March 1808, the size was proposed at "4 pied carré" – 128cm square. By June 1808 this was reduced by a third in a report to Napoleon, who then wrote to Berthier in April 1809, "I approve that all corps return the their eagles to France except one which they will keep. While waiting for the ensigns (enseignes), you will authorize them to make a very simple ensign without devices and reduced to a third of those formerly. These ensigns are for the purpose of rallying. They will not have any bronze decoration, they will carry only the number of the regiment and the battalion.

A point to note that this is not just in the context of line infantry regiments but all infantry corps that were subject to the reduction of eagles. Furthermore, the final decision on fanions was not resolved until 1811 and it is supposed that certain regiments which had returned their surplus eagles in 1809 took the initiative to make some fanions of their own design, which probably accounts for the non-standard ones, such as of 37th, 8th and 2nd line and 7th light.

The final design of the fanions was not set until February 1812 and were 80cm x 100cm on a blackened 300cm wooden staff surmounted by a 10cm iron lance point finial. Note that this size is about the same as the 1804 and 1812
drapeaux which were 80cm x 80cm.

Clearly, judging by surviving examples, the Guard did not conform entirely either in colour or size to this scheme, or even its own scheme and in this context Pierre Charrié merely mentions the scheme for Guard in his book as something the Guard subordinate battalions should have carried "en principe" from 1812.

There are no Old Guard fanions left, as far as I know, so other than that they were tricolors – in theory – any
description must be conjectural but one can assume that they would be similar in size to the fanions we know about, on simple blackened staff and finished with a simple spear point.

Sorry I can't be more help but a definitive answer is just not possible.

JC

JC: That's whole lot more than I knew before! Thanks much.

No problem. I didn't know about tricolor fanions for the OG myself until I looked in Charrié.

JC

>"a definitive answer is just not possible…"<

Therefore, however I choose to do them, no one can prove me wrong!

I'm dredging up this old post because I'm looking for information about the Young Guard fanions circa 1812. Does anyone know what the fanion would look like for the 1st Tiraileurs of the Young Guard?

DAF,
picture
picture
2nd picture being 1811-15 issue.
I went with GMB (15mm)
Regards,

Thank you Colbert. I should have thought of GMB first. I was thinking of hand painting the fanions, but I think that I will order the GMB ones instead.

good postings by John Cookand nice figures by Colbert

Oudinot's Grenadiers carried tricolour fanions in 1809 – from the top – blue, white then red. with unit designations in red on the central band. Unusual in that they were much longer on the staff than the fly.
In 1805 they had white fanions with a gold Imperial eagle, unit designations in script.

G