"Sales woe for Games Workshop" Topic

The point is, if you liked the realistically proportioned LOTR stuff, would you really be interested to switch to the cartoony Fantasy Battle stuff or the Warty Forty which is similarly caricature?

I would have thought such people would be more likely to switch to historical..

How many people saw TSR going down the pan when it was at its peak?

TSR was torpedoed from within by Gary Gygax's ex-wife. No possible comparison there.

Good business is to sell one of something at a high profit rather than three of the same thing at a lower price with lower profits which then combine to produce the one-item figure.

Couldn't disagree more. That is *bad* business, unless one operates in a monopoly environment, which GW doesn't. Like Thane pointed out, it's better to have a bigger customer base, to weather the storms. It's the same concept as product diversification — spreading your eggs out into many different baskets means that you'll be more likely to survive if one of those baskets falls goes splat.

When I used to help my dad run his restaurants, he would give soda pop away for free — he showed my that the soda only cost 6 cents, but that those customers who liked the free soda inevitably bought something else while they were there, like a 30-cent hot dog being sold for $1. USD Without the free soda, the customer wouldn't have been there, and we would have missed out on that revenue.

Fundamental economics shows that fixed costs go down as a proportion of unit cost as you produce more units. They also show that, given a standard demand curve, lower prices bring higher demand. The key is to find that sweet spot where price per unit is low enough to keep demand high while keeping revenue per unit higher than cost per unit. That's where a manufacturer really takes off and the bucks roll in. GW's pricing and marketing philosophies really mystify me.

Their problem is not the popping of the LOTR bubble but the fact that sales of their main product lines have stagnated. The profit of LOTR has just hid that fact.

Amen! The thing to have done would have been to use the infusion of cash as a booster shot to strengthen the health of not only the other two lines, but to R&D and market new lines and one-off games. But that didn't happen, and now they're paying for it.

"The thing to have done would have been to use the infusion of cash as a booster shot to strengthen the health of not only the other two lines, but to R&D and market new lines and one-off games. But that didn't happen, and now they're paying for it."

But if you are the CEO (or one of the BOD) all that will just cut into your yearly "bonus". Gotta milk that cash cow while it's there or it goes to waste. Rake it in at the peak, because after the bottom drops out, who cares? You got yours…. ;)

I do imagine that most of the Board of Directors of GW are set d have invested when Kirby's bonus was announced to be multiple million pounds you would have lofor life just from their bonuses from LOTR sales.

In investing, sickeningly high CEO paycheques are often cited as a sign of the beginning of a bad time for the company. Sure enough, if you woulst a fortune as the stock price went from 800 to 400 and now has dipped below that.

You know what the shame about all of this is? I used to really like 40k. I would really like to enjoy it again but the pricing and policies of GW keeps me from it. Now I think that I would be best off if they collapsed and someone with a bit more of a desire to please customers got their hands on the rights to the 40k universe.

Nathaniel, that would be funny if GW did collapse and Mongoose picked up 40K. They wouldn't because they already have Starship Troopers. But it's just a funny thought.

''TSR was torpedoed from within by Gary Gygax's ex-wife. No possible comparison there.''

Simply UNTRUE.

Gigax was more of a "label" than an active force behind anything done by TSR at the time the company was the "absolute" leader in the industry.

Or have a lot of passion in your verbose postings…if you like to chat about what you love in the hobby…lol.

A wise man once stated that to live with out negativity, one must say nothing, do nothing, and be nothing.

So take the negativity as a sing of success…lol…or at least know that you have connected with people.

They hate you because…

Alas also notice that by bringing attention to your self, you now have 7 stifles.

Be proud.

;)
BME

Hit the "submit" button too fast, doggone it.

Addendum: Of course with teh Gygax equation out of the way, there was NO way the ex could do to damage a company he held no more interests in. His "presence" was more of a memory than actual leadership of his position as figurehead.

Besides, by the time TSR finally went "tits up" for Hasbro to gut, Gygax had already "killed" GDW with his awful Mythus scam. More proof that he was out of the AD&D business scene for good at that time.

Other than that comment, I firmly support you other statements, Javelin.

And now, I'm bugged again and have become the BME hisself!!!

HEEEELP! I'm possesed!!!!!!

=D

GW's solution to the problem!
Raise the prices even more!!
—————————————————

Dont laugh. There's a rumored one coming, it might just be UK, but I dont know about the rest of teh world.

tanks going up by £5,
paints up to £2,
£18.00 GBP apc's (rzorbacks, chimera etc) going to £20,
rhino to £18,
bikes to 6,
mail order bitz that where 1 go to £1.25,
hive tyrant to £25,
£20.00 GBP fantasy boxsets (chariots) go to 25
Terminators to £25.00 GBP
dragons go up to 30

Rise due for 27th Feb

My last post got completely mangled. The first paragraph doesn't make any sense at all. I think it was something to the effect that the Board of Directors are already set for life, milking money from the LOTR sales as bonuses.

@Sargonarhes – It wouldn't necessarily have to be mongoose. I'm sure someone else would realise "Hey, they made millions off of this stuff and were able to sucessfully license it for computer games." I got into 40k during the height of second edition — since then I don't think any of the rules sets (2nd edition included) have actually been *good* but it was enjoyable until their pricing and other policies became ridiculous.

@carmachu — that's horrible! The UK has a terrible year for sales and they apply the same solution as always— raise prices. And there's not a lot of local independant stores in the UK either. Pretty much the only other source for miniatures are the massive number of conventions and dealing directly with the many, many manufacturers. Not always easy to get into that scene if you don't know about anything other than GW. Atleast here in Canada, I can go down to an indy store and see 20 different games, more historical miniature lines than I can count as well as a huge variety of fantasy and sci-fi stuff.

AS I said, rumored. Although I've seen 2 different people with the same information……

No real confirmation on if its UK or worldwide…

>>>tanks going up by £5,
paints up to £2,
£18.00 GBP GBP apc's (rzorbacks, chimera etc) going to £20,
rhino to £18,
bikes to 6,
mail order bitz that where 1 go to £1.25,
hive tyrant to £25,
£20.00 GBP GBP fantasy boxsets (chariots) go to 25
Terminators to £25.00 GBP GBP
dragons go up to 30<<<

They must be joking, the prices only went up a few months ago, I suppose this is everything that didn't get a few quid bunged on it back then.

I'm getting genuinely interested now, just how long can they support themselves like this? Surely raising prices that amount doesn't increase profit because it puts people off buying in the same volume.

@ Nathaniel I know it doesn't have to be Mongoose. Why would they want it when they have Starship Troopers and Babylon 5? Another company, one that doesn't really have any sci-fi type games of their own. But why are we talking like it's a slam dunk? For now let GW hang themselves with their own rope.

And I'd agree with Carmachu, given GW's way of doing things. A price jump seems to be their way of solving all problems. Their new motto should be "The problem isn't with us, it's with the consumers."

It's definitely not a slam dunk. They haven't even announced a *loss* yet, much less going out of business. GW will be around for years to come. While there are many people who won't shed a tear if they collapse, I'd like them to still be around but operating differently. Perhaps it won't come to collapse, perhaps they'll restructure after a few years of losses and get back to their original market and leave the teeny boppers to their video games and iPods.

As for pricing, I think they fail to realise that if the price goes up 25%, people won't simply buy 80% of what they used to and spend the same ammount of money, they'll buy a lot less or none at all.

Sarg and Nath:

Just UK so far as I know.

And yes thats GW's way: less money coming in? Raise the price, blame the customer. Thats how they deal witha problem.

And until they learn their lesson, ecpect more reports like this one.

More fuel to the fire…..

From link

Altium Cuts Games Workshop Target Price

Tuesday, January 10, 2006 6:11:24 AM ET

0948 GMT [Dow Jones] Altium cuts Games Workshop's (GAW.LN) target price to 261p from 325p. While the stock trades flat at 319.75p, Altium says it has "further to fall before they bottom." Analyst says it's unlikely there will be a share-boosting catalyst before late Autumn, following the launch of an updated Warhammer fantasy game. Doesn't expect much of an improvement in sales ahead of late 1H '07 because the decline in independent store sales will offset progress elsewhere, and it's unlikely that there will be much improvement in the cost base. Retains sell recommendation. (LFP)

And price increase confirmed:

from dakka

got my Dwarf a bit early this month, and among loads of lotR stuff , I found the following:
============================================================
IMPORTANT ADAVANCE NEWS-PRICES CHANGES

As of the 27th February we will be changing the prices on a selection of our products. To give you as much a notice as possible so you can get our products at the current price, we have listed the major changes below:

Warhammer 40,00 plastic tank boxed sets change from ₤20 to ₤25

Warhammer 40,00 plastic APC boxed sets change from ₤18 to ₤20

Warhammer 40,00 plastic bikes change from………………….. ₤5 to ₤6

Paints Pots change from………………………………………….. ₤1.75 to ₤2

You still have several weeks to get these products at the old prices, so you can take full adavantage of this notification!

Just think, all that unpainted GW stuff that is sitting in the back of the cupboard is going to be worth keeping hold of for a while. When a tank gets upto £40-00 you could make a killing on e-bay selling your spares for £30-00.

In the words of Mrs Lovejoy…"just think of the children". With price 'changes' like this, there are going to be an awful lot of 'no, you can't have one' going on.

LOL! It's true, another price increase. And not a small one either.

Tanks – 25%
APCs – 11%
Bikes – 20%
Paints – 14%

"Rise due for 27th Feb"

ROTFL!!!!! They are clearly insane with those prices!

Well GW, looks like I won't even be buying paint from you anymore! Vajello and EM4 here I come! :)

The LOTR bubble over the last few years has masked the underlying decline in the sales cycle. GW's view of the market seems a lot like the old Disney practice where they used to re-release the classic films around the cinemas. Every 7 years or so you will have a new market of kids who reach Warhammer age. Just repackage the core stuff and sell it again. If they don't get the new recruits the sales will dip. I dropped out after 40K 3rd edition. My involvement now is down to BFG, Necromunda and Bloodbowl. Anyone got a Stargrunt scenario for 200 space marines?

Dude that price increase is the last nail for me in a very large coffin. I put up with the changes in rules on a 4 year cysle I put up with the death of Dark Future, man o war and space hulk.

But another price increase will see me but no more not even paints, I recently posted a forum on not attending the GW shop. This nail it.

Well, I think I may just be pulling out of the GW tournament I signed up for if this is so. That is disgusting if it is true regards the new price raise. Also, unfortunately almost everyone at the games club I go to play fantasy or 40k. I've seen 2 non-GW games being played, one was a LOTR board game, the other was a game of warmachine. No matter how nice some of the GW figures are these prices are in no way whatsoever justifiable for what you get. Value for money seems to be an alien concept to GW. Shame, I was just getting back into WHFB and was going to do Wood Elf, Dwarf, Lizardmen armies – all basic ones using the battallion sets. I feel very reluctant to give ANY money to GW now – even for their novels which I enjoy. Well, I'll have my WOTC SW figures out at the club this week and be playing SF. I shall do my best to open the eyes of other gamers to a world of wargaming not GW gaming.

Meh, it's only a matter of time before these prices take effect across the pond here in the US. Glad I got out a long time ago. Now not much use or call for my 40K stuff I still have. I could mix the Tyranids with the Arachnids, but the Arachnids look more like bugs than Tyranids do.

What to do about the Eldar? New enemies for the MI?

Sounds like a company run by a very arrogant bunch of group think yes-men. I have read numerous testimonials from gamers over the years on the web that all said the same essential message; declining rules quality and skyrocketing prices are driving gamers away.
As for me, I get the feeling that the company has utter contempt for me. I feel like a revenue source and not a member of the hobby.
In the late 80's I purchased tons of stuff. More than I could afford at the time. Now I can afford to buy the stuff, but knowing how badly I am being over charged keeps me from buying.
Logic tells me that GW has the ability to produce products in mass, and therefore should be able to under price smaller companies like Old Glory. It works that way in every other industry.
I think the company exec's have got to be crazy to keep acting this way. There are a LOT less GW gamers in my area, and more going all the time. At what point does someone in the company wake up and smell the coffee?
And new gamers get into the hobby are NOT going to be the salvation. I have nephews that stop over and love all my cool stuff. I send them to the local shop and they come back with sticker shock. The parents are simply dumb founded at what it costs to get involved in this hobby. They are starting to look at me as if I were insane when they do a quick computation of the pile of junk in my basement.
My purchases have dropped steadily. And after collecting every bloody wood elf model ever made in the last 15+ years, I stopped. The $12 USD for ONE wardancer was the last straw for me. I will not be buying any more.
I look forward to the demise of this corporation. What started as a great gathering of inspired gamers, intent on putting out fun products for fellow hobbyists, has degenerated into this. Nothing but ruthless exploitation of hobbyists.

R.I.P.

The gits…

They are creating a "panic" so people will "save" when buying by the truckload at current prices.

I just won't believe there will be yesmen who'll buy that crap and "save".

enough is enough. They really are playing all of their customer base for idiots?

Sheeesh, when will you make you respect them, you toadies?!?!

Boy… THIS is low. A manufacturer that so openly "spins" a notice, knowing its loyal following will beleive anything that comes from their PR reps.

I pity the fools who fall for this, really.

P.S.: What a stupid excuse for them to recover lost sales or accelerate their income talking for this year…

Whoever is made up this "brilliant" plan, he just shot himself in both feet, and it taking a transnational with him.

"MAAAAAAAAN! Marketing you say?! Wot's dat? Just raise the price! Our groupies will swallow!"

Those are sone nice posts Docktor Zee! Good thing I wasn't drinking anything or I might have spewed it out of my nose.

Prices are going up in the future — buy now to save! Hilarious. It's an anti-sale.

Did my post about how I think we'll see those price increase across the pond in the US in a few months just land in another forum again?

Sargonarhes – I'm looking to get into Eldar. Let's talk! You can reach me at my TMP nickname @ yahoo.com.

Thanks,
Markus

Probably — and likely under someone else's name as well.

[They are creating a "panic" so people will "save" when buying by the truckload at current prices. -and- P.S.: What a stupid excuse for them to recover lost sales or accelerate their income talking for this year…]

This trick will only work for the 1st sales quarter. By the 3rd and 4th, the earnings will drop off so drastically that it will be a definite hurt. (And the people in charge will still not understand why their actions aren't increasing sales. For which they'll blame everybody that works under them.) This is only grumbling you see here. The real backlash will be the silent masses that simply refuse to buy. Their numbers grow every day….

I guess what we're seeing is when a company gets so arrogant it thinks it can charge anything for its product and their fans will still buy it.

I'm sure a small percentage will, but a much larger percentage won't.

I have to agree with you bugstomper there is a cut off point in any business where people will just not pay the prices.

How can you attract new customers when your prices are insane. Most old gamers I know don't buy from GW direct if they can help it. E bay has recently netted me a greater daemon for £4.45 GBP when it should have cost me £25.00 GBP

Yes the fan boyz will buy it because they don't know any better but falling sales due to price increase = increase price again. Is this good management of business practice not in any of the business management classes I attende.

Also fist sign of problems staff getting the heave, second sign prices going up third sign takeover by another company?

Who can take them over? They're still a massive company in RPG land. There isn't anyone else who can afford to have shops in major cities, all the other companies are much smaller. The only people who could afford a take over are somebody like Hasbro, would they be interested?

Well, Hasbro's various attempts to make D&D into a miniatures game have largely failed, so what if they took over GW and marketed pre-painted figures for the game? They could sell both D&D and GW in the same chain of stores, so if you threw in a pizzeria and acne medicine it would be one-stop shopping for teen geekery all over the world!

:)

I'm not sure we've seen the end of price increases.

Remember, GW is targeting an audience that does not pay for their hobbies — their PARENTS do.

Parents generally are unable to understand why generic toy A, which looks to them exactly like brand name toy B but for half the price, is totally unacceptable to the wee one.

Thus it becomes more of "$50 will buy Johnny a box of those plastic soldiers, or a computer game or whatever he wants this week, and keeps him happy for a while".

Do you think Mrs. Average is checking how many marines are in the box she bought for Johnny? Not very likely. The only things she cares about are:

- what does the box cost in the first place (and this gets compared to other single purchase options like computer games, skateboards etc.)

- how long till Johnny wants another (and this is not immediately apparent to the uninitiated)

Note that at the same time, GW has added low cost (but also low value) items to their offerings: The new small plastic boxes with a handful of easy-to-assemble models are intended to be bought with the wee ones' OWN money.

Sorry, Maxxon but Johnny is bound to have his heart broken in the not so-far-future.

As my parents once told me: "Boy, here's a fine line between great toys and absurd cost for something not that useful… So, you can very well have a lot of toys that are cheaper or look at the costly things in the store every time you pass by."

I really find it difficult Joe Average will fork out more than a 100 bucks for two boxes of not that many soldiers, Maxxon… Especially when Johnny Average tell his parents he need 5 boxes to be "competitive" and have a "reglamentary codex army".

So, sorry, I just don't think it will happen that way. Now, I suppose you know that ALL the prices will get adjusted, right? And those entry-level sets are likely to go up, and that you can't play the "a complete game as it was intended to be played" with those very same entry-level boxes, right?

I find you rationale a bit faulty as it does not really represent Joe or Joan Average.

People will see a greater fall in sales, no doubt.

As much as I hate to GW-bash (hey, most of the guys at my FLGS play 'Warhamster' as the Clicky-Tech battlemaster calls it), this really looks like a Death-spiral for GW. When I got into the Tau (yes, I was one of those 'OMG, cool nu army! Gotta get it!') the crisis suits (not quite the 'basic trooper', but the big core of the army) were $15. USD Now they're $25 USD (or $30, haven't bought one in a while).

All the games of 40k I've played in the last 5 months play the same. Run up, and smack your opponent upside the head with a rifle-butt. My Tau ,who suck in HtH, do better to get close. I can't win a game by standing and shooting. If I could get WarMachine going at the FLGS (they're really ed off at Privateer Press, something to do with lack of support), I'm sure it would do better. As it is, we're starting a Flames of War league, and more historical gaming (Naval and Napoleonic). The only way to get a decently funded tournament is to run Escalation Leagues, where you have to buy the expansions for your army at the store to play.

I don't plan on buying much more 40k, if any. I may just dump my Marines. I planned on building an entire TO&E company, with enough extras to be able to field any combination of weapons WYSIWYG. With this price increase, it's just not going to happen.

I may still build an entire Chapter, in Epic (6mm) scale. The infantry won't be too bad (~$400), but vehicles will be _not cheap_ to do.

I may dump the Fantasy stuff I've acquired, too (although that would be a bad thing, as I want to have a Black Company army at some point in time).

I may still build an entire Chapter, in Epic (6mm) scale. The infantry won't be too bad (~$400), but vehicles will be _not cheap_ to do.

One more reason to drop Epic for Dirtside. $400 USD for just infantry? How many is that? I bought 48 stands of infantry (32 line squads and 16 support teams) for $20 USD from Irregular, and fifty GEV minis (20 APC's, 20 light tanks, 10 heavy tanks) for $30 USD from Fortress Figures. So fifty vehicles and nearly fifty stands of infantry set me back only fifty bucks. That's a large part of the reason I haven't gone back to Epic, which was a true love of mine back in the late 80's/early 90's.

In fact, to price out the forces on my Dirtside website:

* GEV Armored Company Team ( link ): 50 GEV's for $30 USD ~ fortressfigures.com

* Mechanized Combined Arms Team ( link ): 20 plastic Land Raiders and 30 plastic Rhinos for $30 USD ~ eBay

* Anti-Grav Cavalry Troop ( link ): 54 grav tanks (18 heavy and 18 light tanks and 9 heavy and 9 light APC's) for $15 USD ~ stiggybaby.com

* Heavy Anti-Grav Armor Company ( link ): 54 grav tanks (18 heavy and 18 light tanks and 9 heavy and 9 light APC's) for $15 USD ~ stiggybaby.com

* Air Assault Company ( link ): 9 Cardinal transport VTOL's for $15 USD ~ gamingetc.com

* Medium Wheeled Armor Team ( link ): 14 MBT's, 12 APC's, 4 artillery vehicles, and 2 command APC's for roughly $40 USD ~ brigademodels.co.uk

* Guards Hovertank Company ( link ): 15 MBT's, 8 APC's, 4 artillery vehicles, 4 self-propelled guns, 9 command APC's for roughly $40 USD ~ brigademodels.co.uk

* Heavy Combat Walker Company ( link ): 30 28mm-tall walkers for $30 USD ~ tindictator.com

So I can find so much better value elsewhere, and I guess that's the bottom line for my love-hate relationship with GW. Of course, if they reintroduced the $69 USD Epic 40K boxed set with all those beautiful plastics, I'd be all over it in a heart beat!

Sorry — I should have made the point that the anti-grav tanks are from the Renegade Legion cohorts boxes, which had 54 plastic vehicles inside. A great deal if you can find them.

Great job, Javelin!!! A fantastic way to give the rest of humanity an idea of just how much is there that's worth a try and has a quality belied by the much more humble pricing.

I rememeber Noble Knight Games had some Renegade Legion Cohorts boxes (soem wrere dirt chep, other faily priced) last time I browsed.

GREAT tanks, perfect for big encounters.

When Games Workshop finally dies, I hope a company like Eagle Games gets a hold of some of their earlier boxed games and re-releases them.
GW made a big mistake when they dropped the big box game. Fot $100 USD you got a bunch of figures, a cool game, and some follow up products and stories/scenarios and painted examples in White Dwarf.
BTW Eagle Games is getting slower at releasing games, but those they do have are really great deal and fun.

I wouldn't dance on top of the grave yet, they could get you regarding IP.

All joking aside I think they will survive in some form, I liked the games and own many of them. The attitude stinks and is more profit driven than ever.

Epic used to be the biggest earner, then they dropped it, why drop a produst that makes money?

Bad management.

Wow, in a cocaine induced rage I managed to get myself banned from the wargamerau forums not for blasting GW's crap production standards for White Dwarf Australia (which I did).

And not for making comments on GW pricing (which I did).

And definately not for having a go at people who get into miniature games sales to become the next rockafeller/murdoch character (which I did)…

Reason for ban: Stating that i thought a new 'nid mini looked like he was taking a bio-engineered crap…

And all post have been removed completely without a trace.

Call me paranoid, but there doesn't seem to be room for a disenting view. Good 'ol red shirt censorship me thinks…

Yes on the british forum a sure way to get locked and banned is to mention the word Squats.

It is quite funny to see people writing, they who must not be named. You cannot discuss business practice or pricing because the forums are for the discussion of the games.

I get the feeling GW just hate gamers and would be happier if we just handed them our money and save the inconvience of them having us about.

I hate to say it, but GW are in very, very deep trouble. They are being hit by the well known economic phenomenon of price elasticity of demand, and are too badly run to see it. Basically, they have decided that the way out of the problems they have is to keep upping the prices, but this just makes the problems worse.

They are not, IMO, going to survive without drastic action, especially since guys like me, on an average income, cant afford to buy new armies any more. In fact, the last thing I bought from GW was an overpriced book, some months ago.

Think about this: they have three products. Just three. WFB, WH40K, LOTR. They add a few accessories, and think they are great. Then, now that XBox games in the UK are retailing for less than most of their products, it begins to hurt them badly, so instead of diversifying into other products, they hike the prices. I have enough armies to do me, and if I want more, eBay calls….

They are spending a lot to open more stores in the US. The sales are poor in the US as people want better value for money – more stores aren't going to change that. Apparently overheads are pushing the prices up. So, open more stores = more overheads = more price rises = less customers = less income. Great economics GW! ;-)

You hit it on the head, Aliensurfer. GW's "neighborhood store" model works fine in Britain, where you can drive from one end of the country to the other in a few hours, but in the US? My closest GW store is six hours away; the next closest one is an *eighteen* hour drive away! There's no possible way that GW can cover US territory with anything near the saturation level of what they have in the UK. It makes more sense to utilize indie stores — avoid the set-up and real estate costs of a Hobby Center while still having viable channels for retail.