"PanzerTruppe WWII rules" Topic

I'd like to announce the publication of PanzerTruppe, my WWII rules. These rules have been in development for more than a dozen years and they have been play tested extensively. Earlier editions were published in MWAN, and this latest edition incorporates changes and additions suggested by the readers of MWAN.

Here is the description from the back cover:
"PanzerTruppe is a set of tactical 1:1 rules for gaming WWII armored combat using 6mm micro armor and 10mm miniatures (1/300 through 1/200 scale). The basic rules comprise only a few pages of text. Optional rules are provided for advanced play involving infantry, anti-tank guns, artillery, mortars, air support, minefields, indirect fire, hedgerows, hidden set up, and more. Specifications are provided for more than 200 armored fighting vehicles covering all major nationalities from 1939 through 1945."

PanzerTruppe is published by LMW Works, the publisher of Classical Hack, G.A.S.L.I.G.H.T, Wellington's Rules, and a few others. Copies may be ordered through Amazon.com.

The rules are supported by a user group at link

My local group and I will be running PanzerTruppe games in each of the three Saturday sessions at the Siege of Augusta (in Augusta, GA), the weekend of Jan 13.

Thanks,
Chris Pagano

Congrats Chris on getting these published.

Henry

Amazon states that it takes from 1 to 2 weeks to ship. Is that accurate?

I don't know why Amazon is saying it will take so long to ship. It doesn't sound right to me. It might have something to do with the fact that before yesterday they were listing that the rules as not yet realeased, with a Jan. 1 relese date being given. Or perhaps they have not yet received or processed their copies from the publisher, who told me he shipped them on Dec. 19. I'm just speculating here.

-Chris P.

I'm always in the market for a good set of WWII rules. But, having missed the MWAN write-up, is there a summary or a review somewhere that I could look at?

Congratulations and good luck Chris! It must be extremely satsifying to get your rules released after the amount of time you've put into them. I feel more encouraged by your example. I've been working on skirmish rules for 3+ years and I'm still working on them..

Thanks for all of the congratulations and encouraging words, I really appreciate it!

So far nobody has written a review of PanzerTruppe. I'm hoping that someone will write one at some point – preferably a favorable one :)

The publisher has signed it up for Amazon's "search inside" function. This will allow you to browse through its pages online (see for example Surdu's "Wellington Rules' on Amazon.com). Unfortunately, Amazon claims that it takes them 5-7 weeks to implement this. I will keep checking the site and let you know here when this function is up and running.

To give you some feel for how it plays here are some brief excerpts from three sections; the turn sequence, movement, and firing. Note that most tanks have a ‘single rate of fire' while most anti-tank guns have a ‘double rate of fire.' The sequence seems much more complex than it really is. In my experience players catch on to it very quickly. Note how the German player loads his tanks in phase 1 (if he fired them previously) and then he must make a decision in phase 2; he can fire in phase 2 or wait until after his movement in phase 3 to fire instead during phase 5. If he waits he may get a better shot by moving closer, stopping, or going "overwatch" in the movement phase. There is a big penalty for firing while moving and a bonus for firing while overwatch. But waiting for a better shot gives the enemy a chance to fire first the allied fire phase – phase 4. Of course he may hold out to fire in phase 9, after the allied tanks have moved closer, stopped, or whatever. The phases for the two sides are interleaved into each others so there is no real boundary between the different game turns. The transition from phase 10 to the next phase 1 is not qualitatively different from the transition from phase 5 to phase 6. This is definitely a very tactical game.

BASIC RULES

Sequence of Play:
Each game turn has ten phases:

(1) Axis Morale & Load
(2) Axis Fire
(3) Axis Movement
(4) Allied Fire
(5) Axis Fire
(6) Allied Morale & Load
(7) Allied Fire
(8) Allied Movement
(9) Axis Fire
(10) Allied Fire

Movement:
Each vehicle is given a certain number of movement points, as indicated in the Vehicle Specifications. The German Pzk IV for example has 6, and cannot expend more than that during its movement phase. This means that it may move up to 6 inches in clear terrain during its movement phase. Table 1 lists the costs in points to move over different terrain.
…
If a vehicle or Gun moves during the movement phase and ends the phase stopped place a "stopped" marker next to it. If a vehicle or Gun does nothing during its movement phase other than pivot, an "overwatch" marker is placed next to it. A vehicle or gun that begins its movement phase moving may still receive an overwatch marker if it immediately stops without moving during the current phase. Unmarked vehicles and Guns are those that remain in motion at the end of the phase. These are considered moving targets during the fire phases. …

Firing; To-Hit:
A unit may only fire during one of its fire phases. A German unit, for example, may only fire during one of the Axis Fire phases. Units may choose not to fire in a fire phase in order to save the shot for a more favorable one in a later phase. They may, for example, wish to wait until they have an overwatch marker.
When a unit fires place a "shot" marker next to it. A unit with a single rate of fire may not fire again until after the shot marker has been removed during its Morale & Load phase. A unit with a double rate of fire may only fire once during any individual fire phase, but it may fire during two separate fire phases before both shot markers are removed during its next Morale and Load phase. Thus a unit with a double rate of fire may have up to two shot markers placed next to it. During the Axis Morale & Load Phase remove all shot markers from axis units (except those that are stunned), and do likewise for the allied units during the Allied Morale & Load Phase.
…

-Chris P.

Chris, are you going to have copies available at Seige?

Jake

I will have copies to sell at the Siege.

-Chris P.

Amazon.com now says "Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours."

They also say: "Only 2 left in stock—order soon (more on the way)." I'm pleasently surprized! With so many well-produced high profile games out there I assumed I was nuts to put this thing on the market.

-Chris P.

You are nuts Chris! I offer the following exhibits:

1) You invested 12 years of your spare time on this.
2) You poured your heart and soul into it (anything that can keep your focus for a dozen years must be a passion)
3) You then offer your rules to the public, which will rip you apart for your efforts.

Who in their right mind would do that?

Some will say it's too complicated, others too simple. It's either too detailed or not detailed enough. The scale will be too large or too small. You will require figures to be based a certain way, thus limiting people with existing armies, or you will allow people to use what they have now, which is to vague for other folks. It may require counters (people hate to use those) or it won't (and people will wonder why you chose not to mark certain things with counters).

The list goes on and on.

But more power to you Chris. Everyone should have a hobby they feel passionate enough about they are willing to share their creations with others, critics be damned! : )

Thanks SeattleGamer!!!

Here is a listing of PanzerTruppe games and other 6mm games lited on the PEL for the Siege of Augusta con this weekend:

Saturday-23 Gettysburg The classic battle of military historians in 6mm hosted by Keith Felger using house rules six players 0900-1300 hrs (S)

Saturday-28 The Finnish Rearguard, 1944 WWII Micro-Armor (6mm) Using Panzer-Truppe. Six (6 ) players hosted by Chris Pagano and the South Carolina Historical Gaming Society. 1944 Soviet offensive against the Finns, a Finnish force is attempting to delay a Soviet armor force supported by an improvised naval flotilla. The Soviets need to take a bridge to keep their timetable and continue their advance. 0900hrs (T)

Saturday-29 The Finnish Rearguard, 1944 WWII Micro-Armor (6mm) using Panzer-Truppe rules for six (6) players hosted by Chris Pagano and the South Carolina Historical Gaming Society. 1944 Soviet offensive against the Finns, a Finnish force is attempting to delay a Soviet armor force supported by an improvised naval flotilla. The Soviets need to take a bridge to keep their timetable and continue their advance. 1400hrs rematch of S-28 (T)

Saturday-30 Escaping the Pocket, France 1944 WWII Micro-Armor (6mm) using Panzer-Truppe Rules. 6 players hosted by Chris Pagano and the South Carolina Historical Gaming Society. 1944, The Allies attempt to seal another pocket. As the German troops become evermore desperate, will they panic and flee or will their backs stiffen? 1900hrs (T)

S-40 Dirtside 2 this is a 6mm science fiction game set on Regina/Effate during the Fifth frontier War in the Traveler Universe. Mike has lots of figs, terrain and rules. This is a fast paced, easy to learn system. All Mike needs is some players. 1330hrs (U)

PanzerTruppe is now carried by Brigade Games in New Jersey brigadegames.com

-Chris P.

Chris: I guess you had to pay for an ISBN. What made you decide to go that route? Did the publisher automatically do that for you? It's not cheap. cheers, Jürgen

My publisher automatically did it for me. I don't even know what it cost.

-Chris P.

The last time I checked, it was about $225 USD per book. cheers, Jürgen

I would like to thank everyone who played in the three PanzerTruppe games at the Siege of Augusta this past weekend, and I'd like to thank Doug for running his two Russia versus Finland Scenarios. I enjoyed the games and I hope that those playing in them enjoyed them as well.
-Chris P.

The following message was posted to the PanzerTruppe Yahoo group, and below it is my reply. (Is such cross-posting useful, or just redundant?)

Hi!

Just picked up a copy of the rules at Conquest in LA, courtesy of Phil Viverito, who dropped them off at a local vendor for me. Read through them and tried them briefly. They look very good, and I am impressed with the elegance of some of the game procedures and mechanics.

1. The Ambush fire rule very nicely takes the place of Opportunity Fire rules, which always seem to have problematic aspects.

2. The armor penetration is handled very well and easily. My test game played smoothly after only two "shots," and had the requisite realistic feel.

3. I love the "Errant Turn" table!

4. My one disappointment is the lack of any command rules and only 'either/or' – Steady or Routed – morale rules. I realize that including the C3I aspects of battle are not to everyone's liking, but I am used to a more robust method of simulating this very crucial aspect of the battlefield. In fairness, I have not played them with a full scenario and my very critical gaming buddies.

Question: page 4, 'Fire Effect," says that hits have "a base 50% chance of damaging the target (d10: 6+, see Table 3)." This means that a d10='0' is treated as a ten. On page 33, "Table 2. TO-HIT," shows that 0-5 is a Miss, while 6+ is a Hit. This would seem to indicate that a '0' is zero, and a '9' is the high roll in the game. "Table 3. FIRE EFFECT," does the same with "0-4." Is a '0' a zero or ten?

Thanks for a very solid new game!

Cheers,
Gregory

IO am looking forward to putting on a full-fledged game with these rules.

Hi Gregory,
Thanks for your comments and I'm glad you're enjoying the rules.

I think the disappointment that you express in comment 4 is warranted. I have never added command and control rules because I have never been interested in writing or using them and I've never come up with any good ideas about them. On the other hand, I think it's clear from comments I've received that a good proportion of gamers are interested in having such rules, and many are disappointed by their absence. In hindsight I probably should have figured out some way of including them, even if it meant asking someone else to write them for me.

The simplicity of the morale rules is another common complaint. I often skip them all together or if I use them I add in some scenario-specific rules to tailor them to the troops and situation depicted.

I encourage players to make the morale rules more complex to fit the scenarios that you play and I would encourage those who are interested in them to write their own command rules. Believe it or not, I like it when people modify my rules and I enjoy hearing what people are doing with them. So if you come up with something that works please post it to the Yahoo group so the rest of us can try it out.

To answer your question; a "0" on the die is always a roll of a "10." The table says "0-5" because it is possible for a die roll to be modified to less than one. Originally the table said "-5" meaning that a 5 or less after modifiers is no effect, but people told me that was confusing. Perhaps "1-5" would have been clearer? I suppose that it would have been obvious that anything less than 1 is also no effect. Sorry for the confusion.

Thanks again,
Chris P.

Just so everyone knows, this is a great set of rules, with many elegant aspects that nicely capure the tactical flavor of combat.

Gregory

I came across the following quote from a US tanker in Steven Zaloga's Osprey book on the M18:

"Tiger tanks, while heavily armored, are very slow. They must come to a full stop to fire their big 88mm gun effectively. To knock them out, a gunner must remain cool and not fire until they stop. …If two or more German tanks approach, wait for them. Then fire at the tank that stops first, disregarding if it is the one furthest away. A moving German tank is not dangerous. It must stop to be effective." (p20)

This is something I tried to capture in PanzerTruppe. The gamer must make decisions as to which target within a group to fire at and when to fire. There are usually positive and negative consequences for waiting to fire, and these must be weighed quickly. I tried to design the rules so that the player is constantly making decisions.

I have always disliked games where a player essentially has noting to do but roll dice, perhaps because they are already set up in good defensive position and they must simply fire away at an approaching unit. (Games depicting the Zulu war, for example, are often like this. The Brits just fire as fast as they can and the Zulus just advance as fast as they can, with the players just rolling dice and no one is really making any decisions.)

-Chris P.

I have added a pdf file to the "Files" section of the PanzerTruppe Yahoo group web page containing the tables and charts. link Printing this out should be easier than photocopying from the book.

Anyone who owns a copy of the rules can email me offline if you would like me to send you a pdf or Word file of the AFV stats. I put together a file that allows you to print out any two nationalities on two sides of one sheet for use as a gaming aid during play.

-Chris P.

Occasionally I am asked about how I came up with the specifications for the AFVs in PanzerTruppe, so I thought I'd write something down about it.

Basically I took the M4 Sherman and the mid-to-late war Pzk IV as the "standard" AFVs, and set the specifications for all of the other AFVs relative to these two. At the level of detail represented in PanzerTruppe, the Sherman and the Pzk IV are essentially the same, except for some of the weapons mounted on each and some armor differences reflected in the early war Pzk IV and the Sherman ‘jumbo.'

The Sherman and the Pzk IV are given the standard or ‘normal' side armor modifier of 0, with a -1 modifier for hits against the more effective front armor, and a larger +2 bonus for hits on the rear. The 75mm gun on the Sherman is taken as the standard weapon, so it has a 0 weapon size modifier and a 0 weapon type modifier. The higher velocity 76mm gun and the L/48 75mm gun on the PzK H and J are given a +1 weapon type modifier. Relative to this the L/70 75mm gun mounted on the Panther is given +2 modifiers, while the shorter L/24 75mm gun on the early war Pzk IV has a modifier of -1. I then set all of the other weapon types in the specifications according to their muzzle velocities (mainly) and I categorized the weapon sizes to produce the size modifiers given in Table 2. I also tinkered with the armor modifiers given in the specs until they all seemed correct relative to each other.

So basically the Sherman 75 has a maximum number of 0 modifiers and games set early in the war will find a lot of negative weapon modifiers offset by a lot of positive armor modifiers (positive being bad with armor), while games set late in the war will find a lot of positive weapon modifiers offset by a lot of negative armor modifiers – with notable exceptions in both cases.

With regards to movement, the Sherman and the Pzk IV are given a ‘standard' movement rate of an even 6 inches per turn and all of other vehicles are set relative to this. 6 is by far the most common speed for fully-tracked AFVs. Some, most notably the T-34 and BT series, were faster and thus have 7. The M18 is the only fully-tracked vehicle to be given an 8. Many slower AFVs are given 5s, such as the Tiger I and II and the Churchill series. Only a few are given 4s, namely the FT17, Matilda I, and the JagdTiger. Half-tracks are given an even 8 and wheeled vehicles tend to have 10-12, with a few 8s and 9s (but note that wheeled vehicles, with the exception of the German 8-wheeled armored cars, have their movement halved when off road).

The main principle was to get all of the specifications to work relative to each other. I made a hobby out of reading whatever I could about the various vehicles and tinkering endlessly with the specs over the course of more than a dozen years. The trick was to keep everything as simple as possible while still capturing what I felt to be the interesting differences between the various vehicles. Many gamers will find that there is too much detail, while many others will feel that there is too little, but in the end I struck a balance that seemed right to me.

-Chris P.

Here is a link to the full set of rules of which the Featherstone rules are a simplified extract.

PDF link

This should have the rules for reaction tests. Also Courier VII #5 has an article on reaction tests for use with these rules. I'm not certain if these rules have been incorporated into the downloaded rules. Hope this helps.

Good Luck Chris. A great set for 1:300 scale or 10-12mm scale. I have watched these played at a few conventions.

That wasn't my post.

This was my post:

If anyone is interested, on the PanzerTruppe yahoo group web page I have posted photos and a discription of my visit to the 'Muster Day' at Camp Mabry, Austin, Texas.

Highlights include a 1/16 RC tank battle, a WWII reenactment, and a description of my ride inside a Hetzer.

The link is:
link

-Chris P.

I just received the following from Bryan B., and I thought that I'd pass it along here. The Danville museum sounds great. I'm going to have to try to make it to this event some time in the future.
-Chris P.

From Bryan B.:
I am sending this email to tell you all about this great museum that I visited over the weekend. It is called the American Armor Foundation Tank Museum. It is located in Danville, Virginia and it the best place that I have ever visited. Now granted, I have never been to a museum that specializes in armor before, but this one is great. The triangle simulation society, which I am a part of, held a series of games there for the museums 25th anniversary. The have 2 huge halls full of tanks and have live demonstrations. I got to see a MP40, a Kar98, a MG34 and a Flakvierling 38 (20mm AA gun) live fired while I got to watch. I also got to see a M60A2 crush a car and a vintage ww2 US flamethrower in action. They have tanks that range from an american copy of the FT17, an Iraqi T55, Sherman dozer, to just about every postwar variety of US medium tank ever made. They have a collection of generals uniforms ranging from WW1 to modern day and have headgear from military units stationed in the US from the spanish in the 1500's to todays uniforms. I was really impressed with the collection of rifles, machine guns, AT guns, and a variety of other heavy weapons.

Chris will be happy to know that I used my modern supplement of Panzertruppe and actually think that I have helped 3 or 4 people to decide to buy the rules. The few pictures I got of my game will be in the Sinai '67 folder. Hopefully I will have the pictures up on the group during the next few hours.

Chris,

Too bad you were unable to make it to Recon-Tampa. A good place to do your rules. One guy in the Flea market had a bunch of micro-armor still in the packs for sale. When I asked the number there were over 1,000.

Plenty of 10-12mm for use with your rules as well.

So, has anyone written a review of these yet?

Do these have Japanese and US forces in thier stats?

I was sorry to not be able to make Recon. I hear more and more good things about that con each year.

There is a review on Amazon.com

Sats are included for Germany 1939-45, Poland 1939, France 1940, Italy 1940-43, Britain 1940-45, Russia 1941-45, the US 1941-45, and Japan 1941-45.

-Chris P.

Chris: I ordered your rules from Amazon, and I look forward to them! Anyway, about how many tanks/infantry squads are required per side? I am hoping to wargame some of the Pacific armor battles (Saipan, etc..). Thanks!

LeCoqFu,
Thanks for ordering the rules, I hope you like them!

You can have a decent game between two players with as little as 8 or 10 AFVs to a side (this is total AFVs, not necessarily platoons or squads).

-Chris P.

Getting Started with PanzerTruppe:

Start out by playing games that just involve tanks and other AFVs. With just AFVs the rules are actually very simple. Later add anti-tank guns and possibly indirect fire and air support. Bring other optional rules such as morale, hedgerows, dug-in units, Hidden set up, etc., as you feel you need them. Hold off on adding infantry until you are very comfortable with the game, and then start out with only a small number of them.

I often play without any infantry at all when I'm introducing new players, running a simple convention game, or when we just feel like having a "beer and pretzels" game. Sometimes I just have a small number of Bazooka and Panzerfaust teams. Some people never use infantry while others feel that a WWII game is not realistic without them. Just do what you enjoy. If you feel that the game must have a lot of infantry, but you find the game to be too complex when using them in large numbers, then PanzerTruppe is not the game for you.

My aim was to make a game with Basic Rules that would be simple enough for kids and gamers that are new to miniatures, and that also have enough Optional Rules tot satisfy experienced gamers and WWII enthusiasts. Hopefully I was at least somewhat successful at this :-) Recognizing that many experienced gamers might want more detail than I am interested in providing, I tried to make a set of rules that would be easily modified or expanded by those who wished to do so themselves. Some variants have already been contributed to the Yahoo group site.

-Chris P.

Someone wrote to me offline to tell me that for the past several years they have been playing Panzertruppe using cardboard counters on Squad Leader boards. I've heard of board games being adapted to miniatures, but this is the first time I've heard of miniatures rules being used with a board game.

-Chris P.

we have PanzerTruppe in stock

link

I probably should have mentioned this in my description of the rules, but in Panzertruppe no basing is necessary for AFVs, although you could base any way you like. There is no set method of basing for Infantry and guns.

-Chris P.

For those who are interested in learning more about Panzertruppe, the "search inside" function is now working on amazon.com

link

Also note the message above that Brigade Games has Panzertruppe in stock.

-Chris P.

Congrats, Chris! Putting out a good set of rules is a HUGE job, but you appear to have done it. 1:1 isn't my cup of tea these days, but I am considering buying them. After all, I have tons of minis to play them with.

As usual, SeattleGamer is spot-on in his comments. Everyone will have their gripes, but when they do, just remember that YOU have done something to improve the hobby, while all the complainers (myself included at times) are only whining, not creating.

Good luck!

Doctor Tom

Wow, my Amazon sales rank dropped to #1,616,716! Someone must have bought a copy :-)

Thanks, and I hope you enjoy it.

PanzerTruppe is a very elegant, fine set of rules, that is very expandable. On the Yahoo egroup, there was a player who promised (threatened?) to provide more comprehensive infantry rules, which would improve the game even more. And the price is very reasonable!

Cheers,
Gregory

I played them or a variation (Mein Truppen) at Historicon. I enjoyed them immensely. John

Doctor Tom, Gregory, & John K.; thanks for the comments!

This is the first I've heard of Mein Truppen, so I don't know if that is a variant of PanzerTruppe.

-Chris P.

@John Kelly,

You may be confusing PanzerTruppe with Mein Panzer and its new variant, Meine Truppen.

At Fall In Dave Wood will be running a PanzerTruppe game titled "Conflict in the Bulge." It will be Saturday at 11:00 am in the Stillwell room. It is not listed in the PEL, but I have just receoved conformation from Dave that he will be running it.

Dave is running his Panzertruppe game again at Cold Wars.

From the Preliminary Event List for FRIDAY, 16 March:

1:00 pm
F073 WWII Era: Conflict In The Bulge
4 hours; Panzer Truppe; 1/300; Number of Players: 6; Wheatland; 2; Hosted by: Dave Wood & the HAWKs; Sponsor (if any):
At short notice, the US Commander is alerted that Panzers are approaching. He has put his troops on alert, been told that help is coming, but his orders are to hold the town at all costs. Will he be able to do deny the Germans the bridge? Or will the German commanders be able to use their panzers and panzer grenadiers to defeat the relief force their way into the town, and take the bridge.

Interestingly, Dave Wood is running the same scanario 3 times at Cold Wars, once with Panzertruppe and then twice more with Look Sarge No Charts.
TMP link
Dave is one of the co-authors of Look Sarge, which is a great set of rules.

Congratz on publishing. Best of luck.