"Normans are usable up to?" Topic

Norman dress (the style of clothing worn in England and France following the Norman Conquest) can be accurately used for historical impressions up to about 1150–1200 C

1200 seems pretty late. Great helms were in use and I think shields had shortened. The surcoat was common following the return of many knights from the 1st and 2nd crusades.

thanks,sorry that my text disappeared
I myself thought that it would be around 1150

Could you use Norman style figures (kite shields etc) in the Reconquista?

One of the gaming magazines had an article about the Normans in Italy and Sicily (I can't find it now), and it said the the Norman "look" lasted longer in this region. I believe the author said the late 1100s.

I'd think there was a certain element of where they were used and what they were used for. They might be pressed into service as something like holders of sergeancies in the Morea, sergeants being sort of second class mounted warriors and the Morea not being a center of Norman culture.

Grelber

Less favored sons inherit Dad's armor, but not his lands.
It probably lasted a lot longer than one would think, if relying on contemporary sources. Are you sure they're "accurate"? 🙄

Agree the 'look' lasted longer in the Italian & Iberian peninsulas (though the kite wasn't as common in Spain) and around the ex-Byzantine lands.

My personal go to end point for classic Normans is the end of the Anarchy/2nd Crusade (1150s). That said, you can extend their usefulness into the early 13th century by swapping out different parts of gear and making them poorer knights/mounted sergeants. Things like the nasal helmet developing a forward tilt with a possible faceplate, the kite shield developing a flat top, introduction of surcoats (though none of these were universal)…

I find Manuscript Miniatures most useful when gauging armor evolution during the high and late Middle Ages.
manuscriptminiatures.com

The account of the German conquest of Sicily shown in the Liber ad honorem Augusti made by by Eboli in 1196 shows knights in conical (or slightly rounded) helmets, kite or flat topped long shields and full mail with no surcoats.
In 15mm, Mirliton do figures based on this source so no need for Normans :)
Richard I's first great seal of 1189 shows him in the same sort of gear. Not quite Norman but a lot more similar to them than to the flat topped face mask helmets* shown in art a generation later or the full helm which replaced it roughly another generation afterwards.

Richard's second seal of c.1197 shows the beginning of this new trend.

"Could you use Norman style figures (kite shields etc) in the Reconquista?"
It's a long period! For the twelfth century, I think yes. The often shown Spanish image of the knights with round shields is from an Apocalypse and may well show them with 'pagan' shields to show they are not on the side of righteousness. This certainly isn't definite though, as one of the kings is shown with a round shield on a funerary monument (early 13th century I think but would have to look it up).

Re. Manuscript miniatures – I have tried to get on there several times in the last few days but had a gateway error. I hope it hasn't gone.