"Man, he just can't get a break." Topic

Okay, I am not a fan of what is happening in the Middle East under the current administration. However, I do think Trump came up with a good treaty for peace in Gaza. Finally looked like a win for the administration after a lot of dark days. Hamas surrenders it's weapons and agrees not be the ruling government of the area. Only to have Israel say no! Trump can't catch a break and so good to have allies like Israel.
We should never trust Netanyahu. Ever.

I thought at the outset that Netanyahu basically pulled the US into the current conflict as Israel needed help to take out Iran's help to Hamas in Gaza.

Not a secret that world opinion was turning against what Israel was doing. The events of October 7th were horrific and a response was justified but opinions started to change to the idea that Israel had taken it too far.

Still Netanyahu has an election to win so he's not wanting to appear soft now.

All the US would need to do is to tell Netanyahu that the US will ban all weapons and materiel exports to Israel unless they accept the treaty- and it will make sure that Israelis know it's Netanyahu's fault. But doesn't the US also have elections coming up?

One party seems on the brink of throwing Israel to the dogs already. I would think they would tread lightly around their friends.

Unless, of course, they are just playing their role in closing the deal.

The main sticking point is that Hamas needs to surrender their heavy weapons and if you're being realistic, they're simply not going to do that. Of course they want Israel to withdraw so that they can go back to stealing food shipments, attempt everything possible to smuggle in arms, and start rebuilding their tunnels. I think if Hamas would surrender their weapons you could actually achieve something here, but their ideology is not going to let them do that.

Don't throw Israel to the dogs, the average Israeli deserves some security. But Netanyahoo and his fundie mates need a wake up and reminder that the US isn't his to manipulate.

As for Hamas, they're relying on Iran for all their gear. If Iran is fair dinkum about peace then they can twist Hamas' supply chain. Though I admit that any result's liable to be very temporary. Fundies are fundies, and there's always someone with money and a desire for chaos around, to encourage them.

I do not think it's possible to have peace in the ME for long. Too many factions, rivalries, tribes, age old feuds and conflicting beliefs. Stay out of it….

The whole thing is a recipe for insoluble. Netanyahu has to survive politically or he goes to jail. There's an election in two months. He has to look strong on security, that's his foundation, and he has to keep the crazy right-wing on his side. Thus he cannot accept a reasonable deal. In fact, Nicely wrapping up all the conflicts might actually be bad for him and his coalition. So, yeah.

It's a variation of "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." (1934 Upton Sinclair)

Stay out of it….

Too bloody true, Tort. Unlikely to happen, though.

Andrew, I think you've described it well, mate. Another case of someone in power trying to CYA, and not caring how many deaths and how much grief others have to suffer for his greed and ego.

So let's get the Israeli perspective:

Israel rejects the current U.S.-backed Hamas disarmament agreement because intelligence indicates Hamas is still trying to rebuild its military wing rather than genuinely demilitarize. Israeli officials state they will not pull troops back from Gaza until Hamas fully surrenders its weapons, fearing a premature withdrawal would allow the group to launch another October 7-style attack. [1, 2]

Security and Implementation Concerns
* Doubtful Intentions: Israeli intelligence suggests Hamas remains dedicated to retaining and rebuilding its terrorist infrastructure. [1]
*
* Phased Withdrawal Risks: The proposed plan links Israeli military pullbacks to gradual weapons storage, which Israel worries leaves a dangerous security gap. [1]
*
* Operational Freedom: Israel demands the permanent right to conduct military actions in Gaza to enforce demilitarization, which standard phased deals restrict. [1, 2, 3]
*
* Leftover Governance and Police: The framework allows former civil bureaucrats and local police tied to Hamas to keep their jobs, raising fears that militant networks will stay intact under new titles. [1, 2]
*

After all Hamas has done in the past, I can't fully disagree with their perspective.

If a snake bites you over and over, would be silly to go back in with it, unless you remove its fangs first.

If a snake bites you over and over, would be silly to go back in with it, unless you remove its fangs first.

Hamas probably looks at it the same way. There's no white hats in that part of the world.

Sure they would because their worldview and justification for power is built on the "Nakba" victim myth which is preferential to the reality that Israel has many times ceded land for peace. Indeed, Hamas rose to power only because in 2005 Israel totally withdrew all forces and all jewish citizens and settlers from Gaza and left the Palestinians to self rule. The ONE election the Palestinians had led to a Palestinian civil war. Hamas and Fatah were elected to a shared parliament, Hamas got the first punch in and it ended Hamas throwing Fatah leadership off of buildings or shooting them in the head. And that was the laest election they ever had -- they have been under totalitarian Hamas rule now for almost 20 years. How's that working out, so far?

Both sides carried out incursions for years and both sides suffered. But Oct 7 brought a new level of atrocities and response. I don't see anyone in the region, or the world, who can create a working solution right now…or anytime soon. The two sides seem doomed to go down to the last man or just run out of steam.

Regime change in Iran…..If the proxy terrorist groups are not materially supported any longer, their impact should weaken. We have got to undo that regime if we want peace in the ME and security for the world. External and internal disruption, re-enlisting useful allies for concerted economic and military and/or covert and cyber warfare. A very complex task.

Or we get out and wait for the bomb. My simple-minded opinion.

I think Hamas' worldview is that Israel shouldn't exist so the land that Israel would need to give up is pretty much everything.

On the other hand you have settlers laying siege to villages in the West bank and homes being bulldozed to make way for parks. So how much land must the Palestinians give up?

Both sets of fundamentalists need to be removed before those that remain can have a chance to live peacefully.

think Hamas' worldview is that Israel shouldn't exist so the land that Israel would need to give up is pretty much everything.

Yes, "from the river to the sea" pretty much says it all.

Israel has many times ceded land for peace.

What land has Israel ceded, SBM? Not Gaza, an area captured and occupied in the 1967 war, and one that the Israelis were illegally occupying. Not the "enclaves" in the West Bank area, again an area illegally occupied, and being expanded, by Israel. However, that doesn't excuse what the Palestinian fundies do, either, regardless of what the idiot uni students and their professors here seem to think.

Kiltboy sums up the situation well, though those who take a "My Team Are Always Good Guys" view may disagree.

I don't see anyone in the region, or the world, who can create a working solution right now…or anytime soon.

Nor can I, mate. The Middle East and Drugs- the unsolvable problems.

Both sides carried out incursions for years and both sides suffered.

An honest read of history shows that since the 1973 Yom Kippur War and the Camp David Accords Israel has not initiated hostilities, but has responded – this is a ONE WAY STREET with the core cause as the rejection of Israeli sovereignty and existence by Arab States and terrorist groups.

Here's a timelinesince 1973, incorporating ongoing terrorism (primarily Palestinian groups targeting Israeli civilians and soldiers outside formal military campaigns). Numbers of Israeli fatalities from terrorism are drawn from Israeli government and compiled sources (e.g., Ministry of Foreign Affairs / Jewish Virtual Library data); these exclude combat deaths in declared wars or major operations and focus on terrorist attacks (bombings, shootings, stabbings, etc.). Exact attack counts vary by definition, but fatalities provide a clear measure of impact. There was no period of peace between major wars—terrorism continued throughout.

1973 – Yom Kippur War
Original aggressor: Egypt and Syria (surprise attack).
Result: Israeli recovery and counteroffensive; ceasefires.
Related: Camp David Accords (1978) → Egypt–Israel Peace Treaty (1979).
Terrorism note: Ongoing fedayeen/PLO attacks continued in parallel (dozens of Israeli deaths annually in the 1970s from cross-border raids and bombings).

1978 – Operation Litani
Original aggressor: PLO (rockets and raids from Lebanon).
Result: Temporary push-back of PLO; UNIFIL deployment.
Terrorism note: PLO and affiliated groups conducted repeated attacks on northern Israeli communities throughout the late 1970s.

1982 – First Lebanon War
Original aggressor: PLO (sustained attacks from Lebanon).
Result: PLO expelled from Beirut; security zone established; Hezbollah emerges.
Terrorism note: Pre-war PLO terrorism from Lebanon included high-profile massacres and rocket fire; post-war, residual attacks and emerging Hezbollah operations continued.

1987–1993 – First Intifada
Original aggressor: Palestinian uprising (riots escalating to stabbings, shootings, firebombs).
Result: Contained by Israel; paved way for Oslo talks. ~200 Israelis killed in terror-related violence during the Intifada period.
Related: Oslo Accords (1993/1995).
Terrorism note: Included both popular violence and organized attacks.

1993/1995 – Oslo Accords period and immediate aftermath
Related: Mutual recognition and PA creation; Jordan peace treaty (1994).
Terrorism note (critical correction to any appearance of "peace" 1994–2000): Despite Oslo, Palestinian terrorist groups (mainly Hamas and Islamic Jihad) launched a sustained campaign of suicide bombings, bus bombings, and shootings. Israeli terrorism fatalities:
1994: 65
1995: 29
1996: 56
1997: 41
1998: 16
1999: 8
Major examples: Afula and Hadera bus bombings (1994), Tel Aviv Dizengoff/bus bombing (22 killed, 1994), Beit Lid dual bombing (19–21 killed, 1995), series of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv suicide bombings in Feb–March 1996 (~50+ killed in days), Mahane Yehuda market and Ben-Yehuda bombings (1997). Dozens of additional non-fatal or smaller attacks occurred. This wave killed more Israelis in some years than many prior periods and severely undermined public support for the peace process.

2000–2005 – Second Intifada
Original aggressor: Palestinian factions (suicide bombings, shootings, etc., after failed Camp David talks).
Result: Over 1,000 Israelis killed (vast majority in terrorist attacks); Israeli countermeasures including barrier and operations sharply reduced successful attacks later in the period.
Terrorism note: Peak years — 2001: 207 Israeli fatalities; 2002: 457; 2003: 213; 2004: 124; 2005: 53. Hundreds of suicide bombings and other attacks (e.g., Passover Netanya hotel bombing 2002).

2005 – Gaza Disengagement
Unilateral Israeli withdrawal of all settlers and forces.
Result: Hamas takeover (2007); rocket fire escalates.
Terrorism note: Rocket/mortar attacks from Gaza became the dominant form of terrorism post-withdrawal, alongside occasional shootings and later tunnel attacks. Annual Israeli terrorism deaths dropped relative to Intifada peaks but never reached zero (e.g., 2006: 29; continued low-to-moderate numbers thereafter, punctuated by spikes).

2006 – Second Lebanon War
Original aggressor: Hezbollah (raid + rockets).
Result: Ceasefire after Israeli campaign.
Terrorism note: Hezbollah rocket fire on Israeli civilians was central; separate Palestinian terrorism from Gaza/West Bank continued in parallel.

2008–2009, 2012, 2014, 2021 – Gaza operations (Cast Lead, Pillar of Defense, Protective Edge, Guardian of the Walls)
Original aggressor in each case: Hamas/PIJ (sustained rocket barrages from Gaza into Israeli civilian areas).
Result: Temporary degradation of capabilities; ceasefires.
Terrorism note: Between major rounds, thousands of rockets and mortars were fired at Israel (many intercepted later by Iron Dome). Additional stabbing, shooting, and vehicular attacks occurred in Israel and the West Bank (e.g., "Lone Wolf"/stabbing waves in 2015–2016). Annual Israeli terrorism fatalities typically ranged from single digits to low dozens outside major escalations.

2023–ongoing – Israel–Hamas War
Original aggressor: Hamas (7 October massacre of ~1,200, mostly civilians, plus hostages and rockets).
Result: Ongoing Israeli campaign in Gaza and related fronts.
Terrorism note: The 7 October attack itself was the deadliest single terrorist assault in Israel's history. Subsequent terrorism (shootings, stabbings, etc.) continued at lower levels inside Israel and the West Bank alongside the war.

Overall pattern: Formal wars and major operations were interspersed with continuous terrorism. The 1994–2000 window after Oslo and the Jordan treaty is the clearest illustration—hundreds of Israelis were killed in terrorist attacks even while diplomatic processes continued. Similar low-to-moderate terrorism persisted after every withdrawal or interim deal that lacked full recognition and cessation of violence by rejectionist groups.

@Dal

What land has Israel ceded, SBM? Not Gaza, an area captured and occupied in the 1967 war, and one that the Israelis were illegally occupying.

The Gaza was originally EGYPTIAN territory (not "Palestinian") granted to them in the 1948 Partition. Yes, they lost that in 1967. So maybe the Egyptians should have been angry??? Anyways, Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza TWENTY ONE YEARS AGO! That's right, the "occupation" ended in 2005 and the Palestinians given home rule with Israeli support. That was what could have been the Palestinian State…instead the ONE AND ONLY open election held in Gaza resulted in Hamas/Fatah powersharing, which was not gonna happen. Hamas got the first punch in and killed ALL Fatah who weren't fast enought or who couldn't fly (Hamas liked to throw Fatah prisoners off of roof tops).

Since them the Hamas/Gaza Palestinian Authority received $25 USD BILLION in international aid and projects. That's enough to have turned Gaza in to the Hong Kong of the Levant.

* Modern power plants, desalination facilities, and wastewater systems sufficient for continuous supply and agricultural/industrial use.

* A commercial port, logistics hubs, and industrial zones oriented toward Mediterranean trade (agriculture, light manufacturing, services)—the geographic advantages often cited in "Singapore/Hong Kong of the Levant" rhetoric.

* High-quality housing, roads, telecom, and tourism infrastructure along the coast.

* World-class universities and vocational systems linked to actual employment, plus R&D or tech parks.

* Seed capital for private enterprise that could attract FDI, similar to how East Asian tigers or Gulf free zones leveraged far less relative aid into export-led growth.

Hong Kong and Singapore started with far less external aid relative to population and achieved high-income status and stability.

Instead, what did Hamas leaders do with the money? First they stole BILLIONS!

* Ismail Haniyeh (former political bureau head, killed 2024): Frequently estimated at $3 USD–5 billion in some Israeli/media reports; other accounts put family assets or personal wealth far lower (millions). He lived primarily in Qatar with reported real-estate interests.

* Khaled Meshaal (longtime external leader): Often listed at $2.5 USD–5 billion, linked to real estate and financial holdings in the Gulf, Egypt, and elsewhere.

* Mousa Abu Marzouk: Commonly estimated around $2 USD–3 billion, with business interests.

* Yahya Sinwar (Gaza leader, killed 2024): Estimates ranged from low millions to $1 USD–3 billion in various reports; he operated primarily inside Gaza.

THEN they spent much of what they didn't steal on militarization -- hundreds of miles of tunnels, bunkers, tens of thousands of rockets and related factories, weapons of all kinds and a militarized population. They turned Gaza not into Hong Kong but a totalitarian terror camp.

So please stop with the moral relativism -- reality begs to differ with that…

Yes, and one last bit on this, @Dal,

Not the "enclaves" in the West Bank area, again an area illegally occupied, and being expanded, by Israel.

You do know we're actually seeing a THREE STATE solution, yes? The 1948 Partition created a TWO STATE SOLUTION with most of the territory of the British Palestine Mandate it took from the Ottoman Empire, which in turn inherited it from the Byzantine Empire, which in turn inherited from the Roman Empire who renamed the province of Judea into "Palestina" which meant the Phillistine – to off the Jews who kept revolting against Roman rule.

But I digress… there WAS a TWO STATE solution. 90% of the Mandate was ceded to Arab states – Jordan, Syria, and Egypt – and I think a sliver given to Lebanon. If you know your history since them, wars and stuff happened as the Arabs objected to the TWO STATE solution with tanks and artillery, bayonets and bombs.

Then a clever Socialist-Facist Egyptan ideologue named Arafat got the backing of the USSR and Arab States to resource and create the "Palestinian Liberation Organization" as a new Fifth Column to keep the war against Israel going (and thus against the US during the Cold War). Fast forward after many violence cycles the Israelis essentially recognized a Palestinian identity that was created in the 1960s as legit, and then we have all the various partition plans to accomodate them on what was for a while, JORDANIAN land, not Palestinian. But funny think about that, ever since the PLO and other Palestinians tried to kill the King of Jordan and topple the regime leading to bloody conflict, the Palestinians haven't been recognized in Jordan as an independent group…

Anyways, we already have a TWO STATE solution. We've been muddling through a THREE STATE solution for the last 30-40 years. Where it stops, dunno. I meanm, Egypt was invited to provide security in Gaza after Israel ceased operations against Hamas and they said F_UCK NO!… and built THEIR border wall with Gaza even higher! The Egyptian-Gaza wall is one of the heaviest defenses in the world!

SB +1

Except

with most of the territory of the British Palestine Mandate it took from the Ottoman Empire, which in turn inherited it from the Byzantine Empire,

No the ottoman's, just like the other Muslims, since 600, "TOOK" it away from the Byzantine, at the point of the sword. All of the Byzantine empire, all of North Africa, much of Spain, areas of Central Europe. I won't go into them going the other directions.

So not inherited.

So please stop with the moral relativism -- reality begs to differ with that

Pure BS and sophistry, SBM. It's not moral relativism, it's pointing out your Israeli heroes also have goat on their shoes. What next? Will you accuse me of anti-semitism? That's usually the way it works in these arguments, or if someone criticises the Israeli government.

Why don't you answer my question- what Israeli land has Israel ceded? Is it because Israel has never ceded any Israeli land (ie Israeli IAW the 1949 borders)? Why should they?

As for the rest I've read most of it before, both here and on other fora. It's the Israeli version of history and written from their white-washing perspective. Israel pure and good, "Arab" nations nasty and evil- the ingrained bias approach to current affairs.

Pure BS and sophistry, SBM. It's not moral relativism, it's pointing out your Israeli heroes also have goat Bleeped text on their shoes.

Pure BS and sophistry? No. Saying "your Israeli heroes also have goat-bleeped text on their shoes" does not make the records equivalent. No nation is pure.

But the documented pattern since 1973 is clear and one-directional: Israel has not initiated wars of conquest or annihilation. It has responded to surprise attacks, sustained rocket fire, raids, and continuous terrorism. That distinction is not "bias." It is the record I already laid out in detail —none of which you addressed.

You can criticise Israeli governments without being antisemitic. It is also routine for antisemites to use "Israel" and "Zionism" as socially acceptable cover for Jew-hatred. Some keep a thin veneer; others no longer bother. The selective energy spent on Israel while ignoring the region's actual despots is part of that pattern. I mean, you ignored the brutal reality of Hamas and how their leadership has stolen $10 USD-15 BILLION in aid to Gaza -- where's your ire? Aimed at Israel…

On your direct question: what Israeli land has Israel ceded?
The 1949 lines were armistice lines, not final borders—the agreements themselves stated they were without prejudice to final claims. Even under your narrow framing, Israel has repeatedly ceded land it controlled:

* The entire Sinai Peninsula (larger than pre-1967 Israel) returned to Egypt under the peace treaty, every settlement dismantled.

* Full unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005—every settler and soldier removed. That ended the occupation of Gaza 21 years ago.

* Partial withdrawals in the West Bank under Oslo and related agreements.

* Multiple formal offers of further large-scale withdrawals plus land swaps from inside the Green Line in exchange for end-of-claims peace. Those were rejected.

Calling Gaza "not Israeli land, therefore it doesn't count" or dismissing Sinai the same way is the actual sophistry. Israel held the territory, withdrew from it, and received rockets, tunnels, and the 7 October massacre in return. The same pattern holds after every major concession since Camp David: land is traded, recognition and peace are not delivered.

The rest of what I posted is not "the Israeli version of history" or white-washing. It is the verifiable sequence of aggressors, results, and continuous terrorism (including the hundreds killed in suicide bombings during the supposed "peace" years after Oslo). You can check every date, every fatality figure, and every initiating attack yourself.

That is not narrative. It is fact.

No one is claiming Israel pure and good, Arab states pure evil. Reality simply does not support the false equivalence you keep insisting on. The core driver remains rejection of Israeli sovereignty and existence, expressed through wars, terrorism, and refusal of repeated land-for-peace offers. That is why the street has been one-way.

Saying "your Israeli heroes also have goat-bleeped text on their shoes" does not make the records equivalent.

I agree, they aren't equivalent. But the Israelis aren't totally blameless, either, as you seem to believe.

But the documented pattern since 1973 is clear and one-directional: Israel has not initiated wars of conquest or annihilation.

I never said it did. However, the clearance of the West Bank can't be ignored, particularly as it is the best recruiting situation the Muslim fundies have. Plus it still holds the Golan Heights- though for strategic reasons I can understand why.

The entire Sinai Peninsula (larger than pre-1967 Israel) returned to Egypt under the peace treaty, every settlement dismantled.

So you approve of their 1967 conquests and 1973 seizure of the Golan Heights, then, despite the rest of the world considering it illegal?

I'm not banging my head against this wall again. I agree with you about the fundies, and some neighbouring governments, being the main problem and they should carry the bigger share of the blame. But not all of it, as you obviously believe. BTW, have a read about the 1949 treaties and Gaza? If you get a chance, you may want to ask some Multinational Force and Observers (MFO) Sinai veterans about why they have to be there.

Stay well, mate.

2 hours ago
Israel says Hezbollah violated Lebanon ceasefire, seriously injured 3 IDF soldiers
Israel says Hezbollah violated Lebanon ceasefire, seriously injured 3 IDF soldiers
Israeli soldiers are seen along the Israel-Lebanon border on April 10, 2026. (Jalaa Marey/AFP via Getty Images)
The office of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Saturday that Hezbollah violated a ceasefire in Lebanon by attacking Israeli soldiers in a security zone along the border, leaving three "seriously injured."

"The IDF responded by striking the Hezbollah terror headquarters which ordered the attack," the office added in a statement. "Only later did the IDF learn that Hezbollah deliberately put civilians in that military compound."

"Hezbollah is willing to do anything, including using its own civilians as human shields, to falsely accuse Israel of deliberately targeting civilians, which the IDF clearly did not," it also said.

The Israel Defense Forces said earlier Saturday that it struck infrastructure belonging to Hezbollah in southern Lebanon.

"The strikes were carried out following an action by the Hezbollah terror organization against our forces in the Ali Taher ridge area, which is located within the security zone where IDF forces operate," the IDF wrote on X.

Using the old "family as shields" again. Typical radical fundamentalist Islam handbook military procedure.

55 mins ago
Israel's military eliminates Hezbollah commander who allegedly used his family as human shields
The Israel Defense Forces said Saturday that strikes it carried out overnight against Hezbollah killed a commander of the terrorist group's Radwan Force special operations unit, who allegedly used his family as human shields.

"Overnight, the IDF struck a central headquarters of the Hezbollah terror organization in the Ansar area in southern Lebanon, in response to an action carried out by the Hezbollah terror organization against our forces operating in the security zone in accordance with the ceasefire agreement," the IDF said on X.

"In the strike, the terrorist Ali Samir Al-Haj Hassan, a battalion commander in the Hezbollah terror organization's 'Radwan Force' unit, was eliminated," it continued. "Along with him, several additional terrorists who operated to advance terror plots against IDF forces operating in the security zone were also eliminated."

"At the time of the strike, Hassan's family was also present with him in the military headquarters, and according to the claim, was harmed in the strike. It should be emphasized that they were not the target of the strike," the IDF also said. "The strike was aimed in a targeted manner at Hassan, who was a lawful target for striking in accordance with international law. The terrorist used his family as human shields and hid with them inside the military headquarters."

You asked me if I thought you were an antisemite when you critize Israel. That act doesn't make you so -- but ignoring ALL of the Arab and Palestinan terror group responsibility actions to continue hammering away at Israel? Let's just say the calculus is shifting…

LIke this quote:

However, the clearance of the West Bank can't be ignored, particularly as it is the best recruiting situation the Muslim fundies have

Really? Like, do you KNOW the history of the West Bank partitions?? After lots of violence and death during the First Intifada, Israel signed the Oslo Accords that created 3 types of Administrative zones in the area of the West Banks: one under self rule by the new Palestinian Authority THAT ISREAL CREATED, a mixed zone, and Israeli zones. Initially there were few travel and security restrictions between the zones, relatively open access into Israel proper for jobs and travel… but can you guess what happened next??

Oh, what's that? Peace and Love broke out? Nah -- a steady drumbeat of Palestinian attacks on Jews in the West Bank. Shootings, car ramming attacks, knifing attacks killing dozens every year… in some cases Palestinian workers attacked their Jewish employers. Neighbors attacked neighbors. Terror attacks were launched from the West Bank into Israel. So security started tightening up.

Then came the Second Intifada and that changed everything dramatically. It featured hundreds of attacks, with suicide bombings becoming a central tactic used by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and later Fatah-linked groups (e.g., Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades). These targeted Israeli buses, cafes, restaurants, markets, discos, and hotels, killing and wounding large numbers of civilians. THOUSANDS were killed or injured. So in response Israel put in place the security regime you claim is a great "recruiting situation for Muslim fundies."

You have the Cause and Effect bass-ackwards…

And what did Israel do to end the Second Intifada, ultimately after military and police campaigns and measures? A series of concessionary measures that includes GIVING GAZA TO THE PALESTINIANS.

Seriously. You keep insisting on moral equivalency, as if both sides were equally to blame. The historical records says otherwise.

What's that old quote? If Hamas and the Palestinians stop fighting there would be peace… if the Israelis stop fighting there would be a holocaust…

but ignoring ALL of the Arab and Palestinan terror group responsibility actions to continue hammering away at Israel?

Ignoring them? I've already said that I believe most of the blame for the troubles is the fundies and their bankers/supporters. Obviously it ran into a typical team mentality- "If you're not for us then your against us, no matter what you say."

Out.

Even an MG-34? Hopefully they keep it.

Iran International English

@IranIntl_En

Israel's military displayed a vast arsenal seized from Iran-backed Hamas and Hezbollah, including Iranian-made mortars, cannons, sniper rifles and anti-tank launchers, as well as weapons manufactured in Russia, China and other countries.

Fox News Digital was given rare access to the Israeli Defense Forces' Tzrifin base in central Israel, where the captured weapons are stored. The arsenal includes rockets, drones, machine guns, grenades and other military equipment seized from the two groups.

Among the weapons displayed was a German-made MG 34 machine gun dating to World War II that the IDF said was seized from a Hezbollah compound in Lebanon. Israeli military officials also showed Iranian-produced weapons and an Iranian replica of an Austrian Steyr sniper

Ignoring them? I've already said that I believe most of the blame for the troubles is the fundies and their bankers/supporters. Obviously it ran into a typical team mentality- "If you're not for us then your against us, no matter what you

Nope – that's the first time you've expressed that clearly. So what do we do about it?

From Sentiment to Interest

"As confidence in America wanes, Europeans and Israelis turn to each other for defense technology and production

In its prime, a hegemonic power protects vassals and dependent allies from predators. As it decays, the hegemon's will and power to protect its allies declines apace. The ‘allies' are increasingly on their own. While some delude themselves about the hegemon's continued reliability, others, closer to danger, develop their own power and independently maneuver, untrammeled by sentiment, pretense, or ‘international law.' This is exactly what is happening in the Middle East and Europe. Frontline states are incrementally shifting their defense postures to survive without Washington. Europeans are turning to Israel for defense technology and advanced military equipment, and Israel to Europeans- and others- for lower- end munitions and production facilities. In the long run, for good and ill, European- Israeli cooperation will erode America's power over both Europe and the Middle East. And while passion, Islamist penetration, and energy interests suggest a harsh anti- Israeli policy, key European nations, technologically and militarily intertwined with the Jewish state, will moderate that policy- not out of sentiment, but realistic military interest.

After Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis, supported by Iran, attacked Israel in 2023, the Americans attempted to hobble their Israeli client's response. The Biden Administration did resupply Israel with munitions and helped defend it from ballistic missile attack. But at decisive moments the Americans slow- walked delivery of materiál and vetoed offensive action. If American pressure had succeeded, Hamas would have remained in control of Rafah and its supply lines from Egypt. Hezbollah would have remained entrenched just north of the border, threatening and bombarding at will. Iran's ballistic missile attacks in 2024 would have been absorbed without any deterrent response. Israel would have lost the war, strategically paralyzed and demoralized, while Iran swiftly moved towards nuclear armament…"

link

Armand

As confidence in America wanes,…

You mean, "as America charts a new security course that doesn't place Europe at the critical middle of American concerns AND pushes Europe to provide more for its own defense…"

It's Time to Pull U.S. Troops from the Middle East

link

Armand

SB – yes we are charting a new course re Europe, not a bad thing, although the lack of diplomatic expertise and nuance has made this needlessly divisive. The Middle East, however, has left most Americans disillusioned with the leader who promised no more foreign entanglements – per every major poll I have seen.

Iran is not over, there is still time for an internal effort to undermine the leadership, cyber, psychological, economic, special forces, etc. but there is a global leadership shake-up going on, and the sneaking suspicion that we were sucked into this war and did not think through the consequences. IMO.

SB +1

SB +1

I think our leadership looks at our military power and thinks "how can anyone stand against all this" – but they don't realize that a dictatorship never *has* to surrender. Unless you're willing to go into Tehran like the Soviets in Berlin, then Iran doesn't have to do anything we say.

We lose if we don't win and they win if they don't lose.

SB – yes we are charting a new course re Europe, not a bad thing, although the lack of diplomatic expertise and nuance has made this needlessly divisive.

The tempo has been driven by Trump, the Temperment by the Europeans who characterize change requirements as betrayal.

* Rubio's messages were polite, direct, firm, diplomatic
* When that was not enough, JD Vance was pointed and direct, bordering on the edge of politeness.
* When that was not enough, Trump unloaded on them.

Kuznetsov +1