"Does successful looting turn raiders into cowards?" Topic

Just reread the account of at least 80 Comanche killing a French trader and his dozen Mexican drivers and making off with a lot of loot. Next day 30 Texans from Gonzales pursued, for about a week, and killed at least a dozen Comanche in a series of running fights as they crossed rivers in the Hill Country. There were cane brakes etc too, The Texan flintlock rifles were very effective in the pursuit -- but if the Comanche had turned on the pursuers, or set an ambush, the Texans might well have been destroyed. Much of the loot was recovered. Was this a failure of Comanche "distributed leadership"? And/or. did the fact that each warrior now had STUFF to take home turn them all into run away run away? Do TMPers know of similar instances across the centuries when a successful raid and a bunch of loot influence the raiders to avoid further contact or fighting -- even when they have a tactical advantage?

I'm thinking of much of Montrose's Highlanders simply going home with the loot, leaving him fatally short-handed at Philphaugh. Really, not much point in looting if you don't take the stuff home. And how much can you carry, anyway?

Yes, a good example. Thank you.

I think you are looking at it with the wrong mindset. The Indians accomplished the goal they set out to achieve -- kill people and take their stuff. They don't have to fight again to keep it. They are not running away due to a lack of courage, they are simply trying to get home with their loot.

79th, yes, and that is indeed the point. They become very risk adverse.

The Texans were notorious for indifference to numerical odds. But they were counter-punchers, and if they understood that the raiders would retreat rather than turn to fight, then numbers do not mean much.

Writing victory conditions for such fights will be challenging. Both sides may think they win.

They came to loot. Not to fight. With a multi player game, each player has his own opinion of why he is there. Nobody is fighting for the honor and glory of the Comanche nation.
I'm here to loot and get back home. Maybe Strong Bear has a grudge against the Texans. My victory conditions are to bring home the fine china and good silverware. Strong Bear wants to kill.

You say you play solo. Roll for each Warband's victory conditions. Or if you have multiple players, let them choose.
I ran a "Darien" game, based on a fictional scenario between Scottish settlers in Panama, Spanish, Pirates, Maroon Indians. Etc. Just for the hell of it I gave each "faction" 10 gold pieces (plastic Halloween coins). The Scottish player accepted bribes so he wouldn't attack others. He claimed he won the game. I guess he did!

Standard Byzantine procedure was to respond to Moslem raids by pulling a force together for pursuit while sending other troops to cut off the routes through mountain passes. Slowed by their loot, and the troops at the passes, the raiders would frequently be caught and destroyed or at least roughly handled. If nobody gets home with loot, folks will think twice before launching the next raid.

A lot of the time, these pursuits involved thematic troops (think national guard) rather than the full-time troops (tagmata) from Constantinople. Toynbee's Constantine Porphyrogenitus and His World discusses this.

Grelber

Remember your D&D— when you find the treasure room, load up and go home!

That's human nature. Desperate men take risks. Wealthy men build a fortified villa. It's not cowardice, it's a costs vs rewards calculation.

John, yes, but for the Comanches we shall need horses. (Comanche wife:How many more horses do you NEED? You can't ride all the ones you have now!)

Grelber, thanks, I will look at that. The Byz knew some tricks to last that extra thousand years.

Parz, yes, human nature, which military discipline is at war against, yes?

John, I have wrestled with all off that, with tables for developing reputation, and defining different types of raids based both on the prospective leader's rep and on his announced intention and goals. As you know it gets really complicated. Individual warriors choose to join, and evidently also to depart. The more I study the Comanche the less confidence I have in my understanding of them.