"Army of marauders: the long history of Russian military" Topic

… looting, pillaging, and stealing

"Military marauding is an enduring concept in warfare. However, the sight of Russian soldiers pillaging, killing and looting in Ukraine stands out starkly among other armed conflicts of the recent decades. In fact, what distinguishes the Russian invaders is their arrogance and greed.

During World War II, the Red Army seized thousands of paintings, books and archive documents from defeated Nazi Germany, in part to satisfy the demands of Joseph Stalin. The Soviet dictator ordered special squads to carry out the looting and bring the stolen goods back to Moscow, where he planned to open a grand museum of trophy art. But, after a few pieces were displayed in 1946, the plan was scrapped and the treasures were locked up in secret vaults, their existence denied, and in some cases, they were assumed to be lost forever.

Military marauding has a long tradition in the Russian army, going back to the establishment of the Soviet Army, which was built on the principle that stealing from your enemy is the norm. These traditions have been repeatedly manifested during different Soviet and Russian wars…"

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Armand

Funny libel)))

So what, all armies did it, possibly on a more personal scale but it was common practice. It was certainly accepted practice by the WW1 German army to 'live off the land' and Napoleon relied upon taking conquered assets to fund his campaigns.

Euromaiden Press is a Ukrainian non govt organisation it is said, but they can hardly be blamed for being biased. Our Western Museums are stocked with stuff "liberated" in many a colonial war and Goering's art collecting would take some beating. OK Napoleon and the Louvre I guess.

It is clearly marked 'Ukrainian media sources' so it is clearly worthless propaganda.

Plenty of evidence from this at the early stages of Russia invading. It is a mindset that has been changed in many modern armies with looting punished.
Plenty of examples and multiple different sources.

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Kitboy + 1

Armand

The article makes some silly interpretations and analogies.

Thesis 1. The forced Russification of Ukrainians in 1914. Simply a lie. It was exactly the opposite: the Austrian authorities, with the active assistance of local Galician Uniates, physically exterminated Ruthenians (Ukrainians who considered themselves Russian) in Galicia. It was then that Galicia became Russia's implacable enemy – all those who disagreed with Ukrainianism were killed or sent to concentration camps (remember the massacre of Poles during World War II – that wasn't the first Ukrainian genocide). And these territories weren't part of Russia – they were part of Austria. And now it's difficult to find information about these events on the English-language internet – there's no censorship. And there's no information either))) Miracles.
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Thesis 2. Looting in the Red Army during the Civil War… Absolute stupidity. All the warring armies, including the Ukrainian one, were extremely short on supplies. Paper money had depreciated so much that it was used as wallpaper. Purchasing anything under these conditions was simply impossible. Expropriation and self-sufficiency were the only options. Almost all armies engaged in this.
The Bolshevik slogan "expropriation of the expropriators" meant the nationalization of any property that exceeded a family's basic needs. Factories and banks were confiscated, and large apartments were "compacted"—the former owners were left with a few rooms according to approved standards, while the remaining rooms were occupied by people who had previously lived in workers' barracks at the factories (where they had only a bed, sometimes one shared by several people working in shifts).
There was no official requirement for the Red Army to rob anyone—on the contrary, the Cheka was instructed to shoot any robbers and looters on the spot, of which there were many, a natural consequence in the revolutionary chaos.
This part of the accusation is simply far-fetched…
The authors then describe events when individual Red commanders (Muravyov) surrendered cities to plunder. But Muravyov wasn't a Bolshevik (a communist)—he was a Left Socialist Revolutionary. The Red Army (like the Soviet government) initially consisted of a large conglomerate of various leftist parties: for example, the Bolsheviks (communists), Left Socialist Revolutionaries, anarchists (communists, syndicalists), Bundists, Left Communists, nationalist communists, and many others… And all of them were only relatively subordinate to the government. It was a spontaneous movement that regularly degenerated into mutinies and "guerrilla warfare." Muravyov himself was killed by the Cheka for plotting a rebellion against Soviet power. And what about Ataman Grigoriev, who defected to the Bolsheviks from the Petliurites? And Makhno? They all served in the Red Army for a time. How can the Bolsheviks be blamed for anything? What could they do under those conditions? The Bolsheviks, with an iron fist, gradually transformed all these motley bands into an organized army. Incidentally, the looting and pogroms carried out by Petliura's army far exceeded anything the Red Army had committed in that war.
Under such circumstances, any accusations of looting by Red Army soldiers alone are laughable.

Don't armies throughout History loot? Sometimes supplies and sometimes as booty or souvenirs?

I know a number of Westerners who have returned from fighting the Russians in Ukraine. The only "loot" I've seen them take back are some empty shell casings and Russian & Wagner unit patches. One American brought back a Russian wrist watch which is still ticking, unlike it's previous owner.

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They said the only Russian equipment to reuse is their gas masks.

Wolfhag

The descriptions of the misbehavior of Soviet soldiers in Europe during World War II are false. Mass accusations are based on isolated incidents. As is this entire article.

Regarding the wristwatches, it's true. At that time, wristwatches were produced in very small quantities in the USSR and were difficult to obtain. Therefore, soldiers considered them a coveted trophy. But even at the front, these watches were essential for a soldier, and this was practically the only way to acquire them.

Did soldiers take away clothing and furniture? I think so – after the German occupation, they often didn't even have houses for their families to live in, much less the basic necessities. Were they justified in doing so? It's up to you to decide.

The story of Marshal Zhukov is well-known. It was partly because of it that he fell into disgrace. He escaped criminal punishment only thanks to his immense popularity in the army and his military service. But note that he was clearly not encouraged to do this; on the contrary, he was punished by being exiled from Moscow to a distant region.

The stories about stolen uranium and factory equipment were amusing. But who's going to count the equipment stolen and destroyed by the Germans?

The story about valuables stolen from German museums is also laughable. More than a thousand Soviet museums were destroyed or looted. Enormous treasures were stolen and still haven't been found. For example, the famous "Amber Room." Oh, those Russians – they dared to compensate for what the Nazis stole…

And the accusations in the last paragraphs are based largely on empty propaganda claims that cannot be verified.
By the way, what was the Ukrainian army doing in Russia's Kursk region?

Based on this article from the Moscow Times, I understand why toilets are so valuable and better than a hole in the ground.

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When I was in Ukraine there are buildings still holes for a toilet even in train stations and public buildings. After using a hole in the ground, I'd seriously consider getting my hands on a toilet if I could too.

I don't think we should confuse traditional Russian soldiers with conscripts and criminals/psychopaths from the eastern Republics and other countries. If left unsupervised, they are capable of any type of barbarism.

I met a Westerner who was an ISR/FO drone operator in Bakhmut fighting the Wagner group and he recorded videos of war crimes of which I won't go into detail. I've seen them. He also said on one occasion they handed a PoW to Ukie intel who took him into the forest, a shot was fired, and they emerged without the PoW.

As sad as it may be, I don't think any of this is unusual in the history of warfare. In the ACW Confederate troops often took shoes and clothing because they didn't have any.

Wolfhag

Looting is one thing, it is understandable and even explicable if for revenge or just to survive. We do not need to list the armies that have done that, since Kubrick's apes met the obelisk and used a femur as a weapon.

Rape and murder of civilians is a much more important issue and totally ignored here.

I never had any illusions that the Ukrainians were liberal angels (but infinitely better than Putin's invading army) and always cheered for "gallant little Israel", ever since 1967, through 73, (until I saw the illegal settlements on the West Bank and the crazy response to Oct 7th in Gaza.)

Every army commits atrocities, but the winners rarely are called to account for their crimes. Looting is relatively minor and a few wristwatches, that is simply daft by comparison

Based on this article from the Moscow Times

This newspaper is western based, owned and funded. It is NOT the same as The NY Times or the The Times in the UK.

Wolfhag & Deadhead + 1

Armand

There are always criminals in the army (as in all human society). Especially in war, where the human psyche is subjected to monstrous pressure, and life is devalued by daily surveillance and the constant fear of death.
But a criminal is a very bad soldier. Would he carry out a dangerous order? And why? Why not simply kill the one giving such an order and thereby save his own life?
Encouraging criminals in the army means the breakdown of discipline. The breakdown of discipline means the breakdown of the army.
So if someone wants to accuse someone of crimes, they should cite not isolated facts—those are easy to find—but evidence of leadership encouraging such actions. It's a system, not an accident.

In the Red Army, there was an order from Stalin that clearly defined the penalties for robbery or rape. The criminal faced either execution or a penal battalion. And if a commander concealed such a fact within his unit, the "osobist" (an NKVD officer assigned to monitor political reliability within the unit) would not have missed the opportunity to receive a reward for uncovering a violation of Stalin's order. In the Red Army, there was dual control: military and party…

Cuprum,
Every country has laws against raping and plundering during war. Well, except countries who practice a philosophy that encourages beheading or selling your enemies into slavery. The problem is enforcing it at the lowest levels and criminals who don't obey laws.

Why not simply kill the one giving such an order and thereby save his own life?

Hasn't that happened in the Russian Army in Ukraine? I know Western drone operators who saw it and saw them killing their own WIA in the front lines in Wagner groups. The criminals and conscripts in the Russian front line trenches are on their own without supervision until the regular units come up.

Westerners I know saw POW exchanges with Ukrainians being exchanged tortured, starved and some castrated. I don't know the conditions of the Russians. I have seen a video of Russian PoWs being systemically shot in the leg by a Ukrainian as they came off a truck. Ukrainians are encouraged to take prisoners to trade back to Russia.

One Westerner said his only nightmare from the war is being captured and castrated. He said dreams about killing Russians were not nightmares but "wet dreams". His unit kept one grenade for themselves rather than being captured as the Russian troops have a special hatred for Westerners but they appear to have been treated fairly as POWs.

Their unit helped plan and execute the Kharkiv Offensive where the Russians were running away to the Oskul River more than fighting. When they liberated Kupyansk he said women came to him in tears thanking them and described what happened to them and their family. I'll spare you the details.

During the Battle of Bakhmut, when they took a Russian position or trench most of the KIA were from the Eastern Republics, not native Russians.

There are atrocities on both sides but the Russians, being in Ukrainian cities and villages, can take it out on the civilians and they do, especially the criminally insane ones who have nothing to lose.

Last week I was talking to a Westerner in Ukraine who said the POWs they are taking are the dregs of Russian society, signed up for the money, and are glad to surrender, they don't need to drop surrender chits. They also detailed the poor treatment they had. At the front, they are told all of the drones are Russian so not to be worried. Reports say that 90% are killed before getting to their position and logistical support is rare so they "live off the land". The Ukrainians are in somewhat of the same position but they have been building netting to protect their guys coming to the front. They don't get killed as quickly so gain experience.

This war is embarrassing to Russia. They have to lie to foreigners to trick them into enlisting, their Black Sea Fleet is defeated by a country without a Navy, Ukrainian civilians build drones that go hundreds of miles through Russia to blow up industrial facilities. Soldiers are forced to take suicide missions and the losses are 1,000+ a day and it appears the Ukrainians are slowly gaining the initiative. High ranking Russian officers are being executed in their home town.

So what are the reports from the Russian home front on the war? What do you think the end game is?

Wolfhag

The Wagner Group (remember, this isn't the Russian army—it's a private military company) included units recruited from criminals (the "K" teams) and the terminally ill (the "Umbrella" units). These people consciously went to die in battle, knowing they would never return. But they wanted to die usefully—to leave good money to their families, to serve their country, to escape prolonged suffering, and, ultimately, to simply die like a man, in battle.

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Everything you know about how prisoners are treated on both sides of the front, and everything else, is just Ukrainian propaganda. Better yet, read last year's UN report, including the treatment of prisoners of war:

PDF link

Ukrainians are evacuating all willing residents from frontline towns and villages. Those who remain are deliberately waiting for the Russians. And for this, the Ukrainians hate them and often simply kill them…

Is Russia in an awkward position? What nonsense is this? Russia is confronting the largest state in Europe with the largest army in Europe, an army supported and supplied by 50 of the most advanced countries, and possessing the most advanced means of war (including AI). And Russia isn't just resisting all this—it's advancing, albeit slowly. What's more, it's also rebuilding devastated cities in Ukraine, restarting factories, and restoring agriculture and coal mining. Russia is proud of its achievements!
Let the US and Israel feel awkward after attacking small, backward Iran.

Russia is unhappy with Putin's indecisiveness and his overtrust of the US. Russia doesn't understand why the bridges across the Dnieper and the Beskydy Tunnel still exist. Russia doesn't understand why we don't sink pirate ships that attack Russian cargo vessels in neutral waters. Russia doesn't understand why Ukrainian military facilities in Europe haven't been attacked yet… They don't understand why satellites and aircraft directly involved in the war, providing reconnaissance and guiding missiles and drones to targets in Russia, aren't being shot down.
Putin must give way to a true, decisive leader.

How will it all end? I think nuclear war.

Back Putin and his followers into a corner and you may well be proved right. A "false flag" tactical nuclear weapon was once the fear as to how this might start. If his world is collapsing around him and the "Enemy are at the Gates" what has he to lose now with one more throw of the dice? A thermonuclear single strike on a small but strategically important Ukrainian city, to see if NATO would call his bluff. I have serious doubts they would. Like Munich and "a small country of which we know little" might apply.

This shouldn't be a false flag strike. It should be an open, pre-announced, and demonstrative strike. It must be a show of determination. Not for Ukraine, but for the West. And why hit the cities? It could be the most desolate area possible. For starters.
How can you not understand that few people in Russia consider this war a war with Ukraine? We are not fighting Ukraine, but NATO, which is using Ukraine as the tip of its spear. And Russia's decisions must be made based on this logic. We are being attacked by a military bloc, a nuclear bloc, which is vastly superior to us in almost every area. Based on this, a nuclear strike is a logical and justified instrument, the only way to stop aggression.

This isn't Putin's opinion—he's weak and indecisive. It's the opinion of the majority of the Russian population. A new leader is needed. Although I wouldn't want to change leadership during a war… I believe that a State Defense Committee should be created in Russia for the duration of the war, similar to what happened during World War II. (The State Defense Committee (GKO) was created on June 30, 1941, as the supreme emergency authority in the USSR, concentrating all military, political, and economic power in its hands during the Great Patriotic War. Its decisions and orders had the force of law and were binding on all citizens, government agencies, and all organizations of any type.)
It's time to fight for real.

Moreover, the West itself wants the conflict to expand. Ukrainian attacks on Belarusian children in Russia and Zelenskyy's public threats to attack Belarus all indicate that the West wants the war to expand and escalate further.

Oh… I posted an interview with a Wagner fighter in Russian yesterday; I wanted to do it in English. I'm making corrections. Read it—you'll understand how Wagner fought, why they didn't spare people (from certain categories), and, by the way, how they felt about Prigozhin's mutiny:
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It's incredible the string of lies that the Russians believe… or want to believe…

"The Wagner Group (remember, this isn't the Russian army…"

Officially established in May 2014, the group utilized the infrastructure of the Russian Armed Forces, sharing a training base at Molkino with the 10th Separate Special Purpose Brigade of the GRU… Hiring the worst criminals to invade and fight Ukraine is entirely the responsibility of the Russians… no one else… it was done on purpose and their military status is Russian… no member of Wagner is a patriot, they are just taking advantage of the situation to whitewash their horrible past… it is one of the worst things Russia has shown in this war of invasion.

"Ukrainians are evacuating all willing residents from frontline towns and villages…"

What do they expect to do?… leave their defenseless civilians to fall into the hands of the worst barbarians in Europe? I'm not even going to comment on the idiocy of them killing those who refuse to evacuate… not even Donald Duck believes that.

"Russia is confronting the largest state in Europe with the largest army in Europe…"

When Russia invaded Ukraine, taking advantage of the internal turmoil, it had an army of 1.3 million, and Ukraine was by no means one of the largest in Europe… the French had 200,000 men, Germany 180,000, and Poland 140,000… Ukraine had little more than 100,000 soldiers.

Imagine if France had been invaded by Russia… how many soldiers would it have in its ranks now?
Surely the Russians would say… Oh! The French are throwing thousands and thousands of soldiers at our poor army.

"Russia is unhappy with Putin's…"

It doesn't seem so, judging by the recent elections… (bah! a farce of an election)… those who don't like him are the radicals who use American Express or Visa and never even go near the front lines… those who beat their chests clamoring for their patriotism and watch the war on TV… in short… the theatrical heroes…

"Ukrainian attacks on Belarusian children …"

It's not even worth commenting on such nonsense. Now it turns out Lukashenko is afraid of Ukraine?… the same Lukashenko who kisses Putin's ass every chance he gets?… the one who allowed the Russians to invade Ukraine from within its borders?… the one who claims to have Russian atomic weapons?… there are no more ridiculous stories left for the Russians to believe… I think if it were published that Santa Claus is a CIA agent… Christmas would never be celebrated in Russia…

Nuclear war?… Are the mighty Russians so weak and in such bad shape that they have to resort to that?… What a shame that they're even thinking about it… It seems they're not doing as well in the war as they claim… Two years ago you said the war would end in December and we're going on the third year… Ha! Ha!

Armand

Tango, well, naturally, Wagner was given part of the Russian Ministry of Defense's infrastructure for training. They were also given heavy weapons and even aircraft. This is just part of the contract. A PMC contract with the state. I don't see any problem.

Ukraine will conscript criminals into the army (not PMCs!) starting in 2022:
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You don't believe that Ukrainians are killing those who stay behind to wait for the Russians? That's your problem… Pro-Ukrainian propagandists in the West won't tell you that. Look, YouTube overlooked it and didn't delete a video in time showing Ukrainians killing civilians:
YouTube link

Tango, the Russian group operating against Ukraine in 2022 – 190,000 men. The Ukrainian army at the start of the war – 261,000 men. This figure was cited by Ukrainian Defense Minister Rustem Umerov… Maybe he was lying?)))

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Russians always fought outnumbered at the beginning. Even now, the Russian numerical superiority at the front is negligible.

Theatrical heroes in Russia? How does this relate to the fact that the Russians still have an army of volunteers (five years into the war), while the Ukrainians have an army of forced laborers caught off the streets?)))

Who is Lukashenko afraid of? And how does this fear manifest itself? Incidentally, Belarus is a union state with Russia. Moreover, there is an agreement to create a single federal state…

When I named a deadline for the end of the war, I couldn't foresee that the West would be so reckless as to risk its own physical existence.)))

t's incredible the string of lies that the Russians believe… or want to believe……………….. worst barbarians in Europe…………….

Your mask slipped.

The very first POW killings shown on western TV news was 3 young Russian soldiers who were cut off and surrounded in a building. They were persuaded to put down their weapons and walk out, As soon as the exited the building they were met with a hail of bullets from their captors. All were killed.

Anyone who cares can check out the Ukrainian recruiting methods

I have never any mask… I was against Russia in this war from day one and show clearly it here…

Glad to see that there are still old communist in England today.
Supporting Morning Star reading.

The first killing were not soldiers… were Ukranian civilians…

Armand

Cuprum,
Thanks for sharing your PoV and info.

So what are the reports from the Russian home front on the war? What do you think the end game is?

You failed to answer. Why doesn't Putin mobilize? Hunting down Ukie pirates: How can he do that when his navy is bottled up and ineffective?

Putin is somewhat in the same situation as the US and NATO having to fight a limited war. We can't firebomb civilian cities like we did in WWII. I'm glad the US has showed restraint in Iran.

You believe your propaganda, I'll believe guys I know who are on the front lines with no agenda other than the truth. Last week I was told they are on the offensive (slow gains) or have stopped Russian advances and causalities are increasing. However, with a gray zone 10-12km wide an advance of a few km is not a big deal but they eventually add up. They are now concentrating on stopping Russian logistical support according to the ISW.

It seems Cuprum is attempting to differentiate between regular army and PMCs. While they may be different but PMCs are condoned by Putin. PMCs are private? Nothing is "private" for Putin.

Militaries throughout history have dropped their enlistment standards when manpower was short. During VN I saw recruiters ask judges to reduce a charge from a felony to a misdemeanor to enlist and will be out of the town for the next 4 years. The US also took guys with a 70 IQ. During WWII the US allowed illiterates (VN too), venerial disease (they put them on anti-biotics), flat feet, no teeth (made dentures), felonies, etc. Other militaries took teenagers and old men. More criminals equals more atrocities.

These US Army criminals (thousands of them) went AWOL and caused many problems in France conducting criminal and black market activities. We all know about the Japanese.

Cuprum is right about action the Russian military and Stalin took to stop the raping and looting of Germans AFTER it got out of hand and is well documented. Siberian troops, not ethnic Russians, were the worst offenders.

Read Ilya Ehrenburg "Kill": link

After the war he Stalin criticized him but he was publishing this hate during the entire war. Politicians always attempt to CYA after something bad happens.

Killing POWs is nothing new. It can be organized like the Katyn Massacre (I've been to the museum in Warsaw), circumstances (thousands of German PoWs died in US outdoor makeshift camps after being cut off – Rhine Meadows), starvation, killing a POW on the front line because you can't evacuate them, or killing them after given a chance to surrender and killed some of your buddies. Snipers, SS, and political officers rarely survived capture. Who started it doe not matter.

Evacuating Civilians: I know Westerners who helped evacuate civilians (some died helping), mostly who were old and thousands freed during the Kharkiv Offensive, I have personal accounts. A few for some reason wanted to stay and maybe wait for the Russians.

Moral question: If you just occupied an enemy town is every citizen with a cell phone a potential enemy that can report back to their military? Ukie civilians were doing that at the start of the war.

There are areas of the Donbas which Ukrainians left or were deported by Putin and replaced by Russians. Smart move as for all practical purposes this is now under control of Russia. If Ukraine takes these back there will most likely be some serious ethnic cleansing. Another example of where diversity is not a countries strength.

Another reason Putin needs to keep the war going is for economic sustainability. The civilian sector GDP has dropped and the National Wealth Fund assets have plunged 60%. The war time economy is keeping it afloat. Life will get very hard for the Russian people unless he can turn the civilian economy around.

Ukraine can continue to produce military hardware to sell to the West after the war. Based on Soviet weapons and system poor performance in Ukraine and Iran only most sales are to India, China and Belarus. Their foreign military sales has dropped 65% compared to the last 5 year period.

EOD: It is estimated that it will take 6 months for every month of the war to clear mines and duds. Up to 10% off Russian artillery shells are duds. It will take decades for them to recover. There are no real winners here except for mineral exploitation.

It's not looking good for Russia: If the reports are correct Crimea is evacuating, Putin is pulling back AA assets from the front to protect Moscow, they've lost the initiative in East Ukraine, morale is low (low with Ukrainians too but they'll still fight), oil prices are back down decreasing oil revenue, they are facing manpower supply and recruitment problems. Has a state of emergency been declared in Crimea? Ukraine is making up for their manpower issues with robots and the West can help them with their economy.

So is time on the side of Ukraine or Russia? Will Putin sign an armistice and pivot to the Suwalki Gap and threaten NATO? What will qualify as a victory for Ukraine and Russia?

Wolfhag

It's not looking good for Russia: If the reports are correct Crimea is evacuating, Putin is pulling back AA assets from the front to protect Moscow, they've lost the initiative in East Ukraine,

The Western Media 'front-line reports are fiction'. Look at the frontline movement over the last 3 years if you want to see the reality.

Glad to see that there are still old communist in England today.
Supporting Morning Star reading.

I am not English. You 'aint much good at anything other than a copy and paste from Google are you?

Time was that this discussion would have been wiped, much earlier than this, as getting too heated and political. Personally I think that would have been a shame and it may yet be that the "System" suppresses all this, but that seems much more passive these days.

I think Cuprum adds so much interest as clearly a patriotic Russian but no great fan of Putin. I have no idea of his circumstances and how he can be so brave, but he should never stand on the balcony of a tall building. Wolfhag can speak with huge authority and experience on military matters. Mkenny, like me, can live in England but not be English.

What a fantastic country that educated me, got me through medical school on no expense, the converse, a full grant for five years, even though I only had (still have) an Irish passport.

No armies are angelic once combat starts in Built up areas. I am sure there are some members of the Ukrainian forces who are, embarrassingly for us, fascist, racist, Nationalist etc. But, for all their faults, God bless gallant little Ukraine. I used to say that about Israel in 67 and 73. They were just so "cool" and outdid anything that the German Blitzkrieg ever managed. An SS Panzer Division was not a patch on an Israeli Armoured assault. But where did they all go so wrong?

Time was that this discussion would have been wiped, much earlier than this,

I agree.
It appears it was deliberate Trojan Horse and in the hope no one noticed the switch from WW2 to current news

Considering that in nine months your participation has been limited to three threads, displaying argumentative and aggressive prose related to a single topic (Normandy and later), I don't consider this sudden critical outburst directed at me to be relevant. I do appreciate that one of your three contributions was in a thread I started.

Armand

I always use my own name when I post online and have done so for over 25 years.

And I like milanesas con papas fritas… (?)

My own (full one) name is on my Member Profile since day one… so?

Armand

mkenny,

The Western Media 'front-line reports are fiction'. Look at the frontline movement over the last 3 years if you want to see the reality.

Since you already have it – post it for us and save us the time.

Wolfhag

Since you already have it – post it for us and save us the time.

It is easy to Google. I suggest you ask Tango-now there is someone who really, really knows how to Google.

mkenny,
I'm not falling for that trick, it appears you've got nothing to contribute.

Wolfhag

"…it appears you've got nothing to contribute…."

Except for rudeness and aggressive replies…

Armand

But where did they (Israel) all go so wrong?

My opinion Israel is losing the propaganda war in America and Europe. To see how much Islamic countries as compared to AIPAC give to lobby US politicians check Open Secrets here: link

Unfortunately, many US politicians will take $$ from anyone. Foreign governments and corporate entities have better representation and lobbyists in DC than the citizens.

Americans love cheering for the underdog oppressed victim, but Israel lost that image and are now painted as the oppressors. That can happen when you start winning. Then there is the effect of Suicidal Empathy and "Political Correctness" for Israel's perceived "victims" who are also oppressors.

Islamic and GCC countries have contributed about $5 USD billion to US colleges, universities and non-profits in the last 5 years used to endow departments, set up activity and educational programs on campus. None of it is illegal. There are student and faculty organizations that benefit and protest against the Jews. I think Western media has shown this enough times on the news. Islamists are gaining more political power at every level making it easier to push their narrative. (Open Secrets)

To get back on topic, there are many instances of human rights offenses by Israelis and Palestinians, as in almost every human conflict. It appears the Israeli ones get the negative media attention as oppressors and their enemy as the innocent victims. Diversity is not a strength.

Wolfhag

"…it appears you've got nothing to contribute…."

Except for rudeness and aggressive replies ,

Always going to step in and correct factual errors. The amount of decades old outdated Google links being posted means I am never short of work!

Always going to step in and correct factual errors. The amount of decades old outdated Google links being posted means I am never short of work!

Personally, we should all be impressed with your dedication of service to mankind to right all of the wrongs on the internet. This is a noble endeavor.

I assume you are going to start with correcting people and links on Wikipedia and then take on ChatGPT and other hallucinating (did they discover the formula for LSD?) AI systems. Don't worry, after your mission is accomplished we'll reserve a spot for you in this discussion.

I wish you luck and Godspeed. Until then, we'll miss you.

Wolfhag

Personally, we should all be impressed with your dedication of service to mankind to right all of the wrongs on the internet. This is a noble endeavor.

Post anything like (for example) 'Monty stole all Patton's gas' and you will be corrected.

I assume you are going to start with correcting people and links on Wikipedia and then take on ChatGPT and other hallucinating (did they discover the formula for LSD?) AI systems. Don't worry, after your mission is accomplished we'll reserve a spot for you in this discussion.

Youtube WW2 content is now 90% US Exceptionalist-focused AI garbage. Wiki editing wars are pointless because the likes of Kurowski is their 'gold standard (a published author) whilst anyone who has primary documents that show Kurowski is a fraudster can not correct him because 'published' trumps 'primary' in Wikiworld.

I have no intention of retiring and have been busting wehraboo myths online for over 25 years.

Back in 2002 I warned about the fake 'Joachim Scholl' Diary of sSS Pz Abt 102

link

and am still going strong identifying the locations of M4 victims

link

The above is 'original research' by the way.

Youtube WW2 content is now 90% US Exceptionalist-focused AI garbage. Wiki editing wars are pointless because the likes of Kurowski is their 'gold standard (a published author) whilst anyone who has primary documents that show Kurowski is a fraudster can not correct him because 'published' trumps 'primary' in Wikiworld.

Not all AI generated content is garbage, you know that. You need to check any source, especially Wilipedia. Sometimes you'll find very sources that agree. That's just the way it is.

So, who are your go-to sources for finding out what's happening on the ground in Ukraine if not in the West? The Russians? The Chinese? You?

Kurowski is German, not US isn't he?

Wolfhag

So, who are your go-to sources for finding out what's happening on the ground in Ukraine if not in the West? The Russians? The Chinese? You?

In my experience 90% of 'western' reporting (including reports by western state intelligence Agencies) deliberately lies/skews/misrepresent heavily in favour of the Ukrainian Government version of events.
Any source that does not take in to account or aggregate Russian sources (Telegram) is worthless.
I urge those with an interest in what is happening in Ukraine to look at what news agencies outside the western bubble are reporting. It is not the same hymn sheet western news outlets are using.

In my experience 90% of 'western' reporting (including reports by western state intelligence Agencies) deliberately lies/skews/misrepresent heavily in favour of the Ukrainian Government version of events.

You still have not told us where to find these neutral news agencies because there are not any. I'll post my favorite ones later.

Any source that does not take in to account or aggregate Russian sources (Telegram) is worthless

I think you are a little naïve here and don't fully understand (or acknowledge) how Western media works, whether you agree or not that's the reality.

Media is a business model to generate revenue. Truth and fairness, if at all, is secondary. That means it needs viewers to sign up advertisers. More viewers means more revenue. To get viewers, tell them what they want to hear so they keep tuning in, don't challenge them or force them to think.

If they don't like the message or lie too much and are exposed, the audience tunes out. That appears to be happening to the mainstream media in the US with cable channels gaining viewership. If you don't get the advertising revenue you go out of business. There is no incentive to be fair and balanced except maybe on podcasts.

I worked for one of the three letter intel agencies during the Cold War so I think I know a little more about propaganda than most people. Many of the Western mainstream media channels are more propaganda than news, something we can agree on. Propaganda is to control people, mostly by getting them angry and hateful, not inform them.

Governments that control the media control the message with the goal of turning their people into Useful Idiots to do their bidding. Sound familiar US?

I got off the phone last night with some Westerners that fought in the Donbas and had a safe house in Kostiantynivka (now rubble from artillery) during the battle of Bakhmut and are still going in and out of the city.

I was told it is still being contested and their opinion is that it will eventually fall. Most likely, at a certain point in the future when the weather does not allow drones to fly they'll pull out while the Russians are moving in. The same guy gave briefings the the NYT staff during and reported to Gen. Budanov of GUR while in Ukraine. I trust him.

The Russians took Bakhmut, Adviivka and other towns by cutting off the last supply road by targeting it with direct fire from armored vehicles. In Bakhmut they held off the VDV coming south from Solidar to help evacuate most of the defenders before they got cut off.

Unfortunately, this was not the case in Adviivka and units were cut off and killed evacuating down the only road. I talked to an American who was there and said it was pretty bad.

They said this will not be the case in the evacuation of Kostiantynivka because the Russians cannot get armored vehicles near the town. The reported causality exchange is about 6+:1 in favor of the Ukrainians. The Russians that get into the town must loot the locals for food and water because they can't get resupplied. Looting toilets is not an option because for almost every Russian it is a one way trip. Sometimes a Russian sympathizer will help them and ID Ukie units.

Taking the city will result in the gray zone will get larger and the Russian supply lines and infiltration routes longer going to the next objective. That's not good news for the Russians.

After taking Kostiantynivka the road leads to Druzhkivka which is about 4,500m. There appears to be a wooded area along the road and a river too for infiltration. From there Kramatorsk is another 8,000m. They are not going to make it.

Russian Advance: According to some reports, the Russians further advance West from the 2014 start line is about 40-50 miles. The war has going on for 4.5 years. A snail moving at 0.005 mph takes about a full year to travel 45 miles. To say the Russian advance is going at a snail's pace is disrespectful to snails.

In the future the Russians are going to keep dying so looting of toilets and washing machines will stop.

Wolfhag

After taking Kostiantynivka the road leads to Druzhkivka which is about 4,500m. There appears to be a wooded area along the road and a river too for infiltration. From there Kramatorsk is another 8,000m. They are not going to make it.

My editing time closed before I could do some checking.

Looking at the map the distances depend on where you start so it is variable. The road from Kostiantynivka to Kramatorsk shows 32km (20 miles) and a driving time of 30 minutes. From Kostiantynivka to Druzhkivka is about 7.5 miles.

I think you get the idea.

Wolfhag

Thanks Wolfhag…

Armand

In the future the Russians are going to keep dying so looting of toilets…………will stop

Not while Ukraine is awash with golden toilets courtesy of EU taxpayers

………..and washing machines will stop

They needed all those washing-machine chips for the drones, the drones that wiped out the western Uber-panzers around Robotyne

My apologies. It appears you are right about the golden toilets.

link

Wolfhag