"A different look at the German MG42 use" Topic

Why German Machine Gunners Feared Firing First at U.S. Troops

Why did German machine gunners hesitate to fire first at advancing American troops during World War II? In this gripping WW2 documentary-style story, discover the battlefield tactics, overwhelming firepower, and rapid U.S. response that shocked experienced German soldiers across Europe. From Normandy to the Battle of the Bulge, American infantry squads used aggressive suppression, coordinated attacks, and endless ammunition to dominate firefights. Veterans on both sides described how one burst at U.S. troops could trigger a devastating storm of return fire within seconds. This video explores the real combat psychology, weapons, tactics, and battlefield experiences that made German machine gunners fear opening fire first. WWII history explained.

YouTube link

The German manual stated that the MG is the main firepower and the rifle armed guys in the squad protected it. The problem I see is that the MG gunner attracts all of the attention and he should relocate after a few bursts. Once the gun was lost the rest of the squad was assigned to another unit.

Some sources state the MG gunner lasted 2-3 minutes after the shooting started.

Personally, I think most game systems don't portray the way ambushes are portrayed and the rapid use of 60mm mortars and FOs. Maybe because it would be portrayed as "unbalanced".

Wolfhag

Yes. I have no idea how far back the doctrine of instant reaction to an ambush goes, but it was certainly well established when I went through Infantry Officer Basic in 1971. You absolutely do not stay where you are in the killing zone, and it is better to "move" (which often means to shoot) aggressively forward rather than falling back. How far down in 1944 did BARs go? Did every squad have one? But even the Garand gave the riflemen a lot of fire power. I have never read this, what you posted, but it makes sense.

and yeah, VN era doctrine saw the platoon as the bodyguards not of the MG but of the FO. Keep him alive and you have massive quick firepower. I think it is true that US infantry in VN were always within range of 105s or other artillery.

You never want to be the one guy that stands out in a fire fight.

Having said that, ammo is heavy and near all the infantry walked. if the guy behind the mg wastes ammo, rather than aimed bursts, he will soon find himself carrying the ammo for the machine gunner who uses aimed bursts.

How far down in 1944 did BARs go? Did every squad have one?

Yes, one BAR per squad was the norm. Some squads informally "found" a second one.

The 1944 USMC, however, organized its squads with three fire teams of four men each, with each team having a BAR.

Hope this helps,
Mark

Regarding not standing out: The BAR and MG34 could fire single shot semi, the MG42 could not.

SOP had the MG42 firing up to 250 rounds and relocating to another prepared position.

Wolfhag

Good video. Checked out some of the other videos on that channel. The one about USN pilot shooting down 7 Japanese planes to save a carrier and being denied the CMH is so wrong it is embarrassing.

Good video. Checked out some of the other videos on that channel. The one about USN pilot shooting down 7 Japanese planes to save a carrier and being denied the CMH is so wrong it is embarrassing.

I think it's an AI channel, so I would be very careful about trusting it.

It doesn't outright say it's AI, but I would bet dollars to donuts it is:

"Disclaimer: This video is a narrative interpretation inspired by historical events. Some details may be simplified or dramatized for clarity. For verified historical accuracy, please consult primary historical sources and professional historians."

I thought the same when I looked at the video. Another AI generated "documentary like story" as the video claims itself to be. Some real slop on YouTube.

Sorry guys, there is so much AI now but even then some of the content is still good. Verified content from original sources DELIVERED by AI video and voice should still be valid. What is AI should be stated by the author.

It's so much easier and quicker to make videos that it is going to be the standard for all but a few channels. I've been fooled before. If you think it is AI then it probably is.

"Disclaimer: This video is a narrative interpretation inspired by historical events. Some details may be simplified or dramatized for clarity. For verified historical accuracy, please consult primary historical sources and professional historians."

Which I did.
"The Germans called this tactic Stellungswechsel (change of position) and it was a vital part of their overall machine gun doctrine."

"On the defensive, MG 42s were shifted back and forth between different positions to confuse the enemy."

"Stellungswechsel!" ("Position change!"): discusses advancing from one firing position to another under fire. The manual explicitly teaches movement from cover to cover and relocation to better firing positions when enemy fire becomes effective.

On the defensive, MG 42s were shifted back and forth between different positions to confuse the enemy. The Germans called this tactic Stelungswechsel (change of position) and was a vital part of their overall machine gun doctrine.

Three firing pits for the gun were usually dug at various places along the front line: one to cover the expected avenue of an enemy advance; another on the left or right flank to support a neighboring squad; and yet another—called the Schweige MG (ambush position)—about 50 yards behind the main German line.

These tactics made the Germans, as one American officer during the early stages of the Normandy Campaign stated, "masters at making one man appear to be a whole squad by moving rapidly from one concealed position to another."

I liked the video content. I think this only makes sense.

My game system portrays action at the level that will allow players to change position.

The only way to avoid AI generated content is to gather verified content into a repository that you can search on. I'm working on that for historical content using only original documents, manuals, AARs, etc.

So if you want to avoid AI, stay off the internet. It's getting good enough to fool anyone, including me.

Wolfhag

Whilst retreating, a fairly common German tactic was to use a series of mg teams to open fire at range, force caution on the enemy. They then withdraw. The next team is encountered which repeats the open fire – pin – retreat. They might casualties but the main aim was to delay.

When rather more firm, one tactic whilst still 7nseen was to hold fire until the enemy were quite close. Like 40 metres. The idea being when they then opened fire they maximised casualties before the enemy went to ground.

It was quite common for machine guns to stop firing as the enemy machine guns opened up. There's a bunch of descriptions of this. German mg opened up, British mg gunners kept their heads down. Bren gunners opened up and Germans kept their heads down. Then the mg 42 opened up and so on. One side then the other firing. Everyone had an understandable tendency to take cover as automatic weapons opened fire in their direction afaik.

I will never again throw a dice in anger, and if I did it would be long before MG42s, but please forgive a dumb question.

Here I am in Normandy in 1944 and I fire a 2 second sustained burst. I wait maybe 3 seconds and fire another 2 second burst. Let's do that one more time, before I relocate.

How long before my barrel is overheated and has to be cooled or changed? My weapon is better than your Bren because it can fire half a million rounds a second, but it becomes useless very quickly, because I have no ammo left or my gun has melted.

Seriously though, what is the trade off? We have all seen the M60, carried at the waist by a guy built like a brick outhouse, shredding a treeline in VN without serious aiming, but what happened in WWII?

There was a short comparison of the Bren and the MG42 in 21 Army Group Infantry Notes from Sep 1944. I'm not entirely convinced the writer had first hand knowledge of the German weapon as a few of the points look to be based on supposition.

The high rate of fire was said to be offset by the MG42 quickly rising when fired from the bipod, meaning aimed fire was swiftly compromised. It was suggested that that same ROF lead to much quicker overheating than the Bren and a higher level of stoppages. The piece also stated that MG ammunition was batched separately from normal rifle ammunition and using the latter in MGs could likewise lead to misfeeds – not something I'm sure I've seen anywhere else? The main point might be that while the MG42 sounded impressive in the opening burst after that it was just another MG and a somewhat temperamental one at that.

Rapid ammunition consumption and barrel usage were also cited. My understanding is that four spare barrels were allotted for both the MG34 and MG42 in the Squad role, versus one for the Bren in the Rifle Section and a Not Applicable for the BAR of course. The Bren barrel was recommended to be changed after 12 magazines had been put through it, I cannot recall seeing a similar estimate for the MG34 or MG42. Ammunition allowance varied depending on role and date but around 2500 r.p.g. in the Squad is a good estimate, versus 1000 for the Bren, both estimates based on a Squad/Section of normal strength.

Gary

Bipod mg42 gunners were supposed to fire short controlled bursts. 5-7 rounds. Often keeping to under 200 before changing barrel. In light contact could be much lower before changing.
But you of course have the option for longer bursts if a line of targets appears.
Reason you'd change barrel early is a cooler barrel wears slower and you've got more headroom before you're forced to change.

By keeping bursts short there's less difference than you might expect compared to lower rof mg.

On the tripod, mg42 would be used from a support position at longer range from enemy. More sustained bursts were more common.

The bren had a forced break after each mag and lower rof so less barrel changing.

Mg42 and kar98k fired exactly the same rounds.

There's a quote from an experienced British officer on mg42 saying he always expected them to run out of ammo. They never seemed to though.

I thought 3 spare barrels and Google seems to agree but I suspect just one might have been fairly likely.

Thought I would have a check back re the barrels. The 1941 manual for the standard Rifle Company shows two spare barrels to be carried by the Squad, one each by Nos.2 and 3 of the LMG team. The MG34 equipment documents indicates three types of scale for the LMG, with 3, 4 and 5 spare barrels being issued. Three was for the LMG in a defensive role, such as with anti-tank or artillery, four the standard for a Rifle Company or equivalent, and five for the MG34 in the heavy role.

In all these cases there was a carrier/protector holding two barrels issued and a single carrier/protector for each remaining barrel. I'd agree that what was carried would depend on availability and Squad size.

There is an example of the MG42 list available at germandocsinrussia.org, which shows near enough the same but adds a sixth barrel for the HMG role and appears to do away with the double barrel carrier in favour of single equivalents.

link

Gary

In the US manual it says to try and attack when the MG is changing barrels but that apparently didn't work very well if it only interrupted the fire for 10 seconds. Veterans just called in mortars or artillery.

An attached 60mm mortar team could be accurately bracketing a position in 1-2 minutes. Especially if the Platoon Leader had a known TRP for the artillery battery.

Maybe this is why gunners didn't last long and moved to another position.

The rate/volume of fire would depend on the gunner, amount of ammo and # of barrels. The barrels take about 20 minutes to cool down. I'd figure sustained fire for 1-2 minutes per barrel.

Wolfhag

Moderns are characterised by the "empty battlefield". Weapons are long ranged enough you hide rather than marching around in compact units shoulder to shoulder as was usual in previous periods.
In the empty battlefield machine guns tend to stand out. Riflemen will shoot rarely.
Machine guns shoot frequently. So the machine gun is the weapon you are most likely to see and it's the most effective weapon in a squad so your highest priority.