"TOW/KOW: the rift widens..." Topic

I just noticed mantic are no longer (?) putting individual base in boxes of kow figures.

Its the one hold up for me, that they don't do figure removal.

Now it's seems you can even base them individually, out of the box.

So, TOW change the base sizes, possibly in response to mantic and others, wanting to "own" their base size.

Now mantic have done the same type of thing, likely because you can no longer use their figures for WFB, out of the box.

So now one is on larger bases and the other is on unit bases. Both being a pain in the bottom.

At least GW had a good reason, as with crowding and scale creep, if not at the end of a long hiatus, then when? During a games run?

The valid excuse for mantic aren't so easily come by. Because TOW doesn't need them? Because everyone is multi basing? They still had some ground for old hammer fans, but now it's hard to buy figures if you don't want multi bases and don't want to have to fork out again for new bases.

Interesting times.

Just buy individual bases from em4 or Warbases – they are not expensive (20x 25mm bases for £1.50 GBP?) or even make your won from card or coins. It's not a big deal.

Not sure what TOW is, but are you saying you are "upset" that Mantic isn't including bases for individual basing, but they do include a base for larger unit basing?

TOW is short for Warhammer: THe Old World. Current version of WHFB.

Damon.

So he is upset that Mantic doesn't provide bases for another game not published by Mantic??

Mantic's games came out at a time when there was a real push for a "cheap" Warhammer. Many of their figures are directly cross-compatable with Warhammer. And I know lots of people that would use Mantic figures in Warhammer. I would argue that part of Mantic's business model is to steal off disaffected Warhammer players.

Changing from individual basing to multi-basing makes it slightly harder to use Mantic figures in Warhammer. Not very, only slightly. But I think this shows that Mantic is having enough confidence in their game, that cribbing Warhammer players is no longer a concern.

I personally could not care less; I think much of Mantic's range is ugly (there are a few exceptions),& dislike the game for a number of reasons. That being said, if your major investment for Warhammer is using Mantic figures, I suppose I could see how you would be annoyed.

Damon.

I get the inconvenience, but you can get a bag of bases for pretty cheap.

"It's not a big deal."

It is when looking at the business side.

"Not sure what TOW is, but are you saying you are "upset" that Mantic isn't including bases for individual basing, but they do include a base for larger unit basing?"

The old world. Welcome to fantasy wargaming.

Would you be "upset" if a company stopped putting a necessary iitem in a boxed product? Like IKEA pack with no screws.

I'm not crying myself to sleep, but it may sway what I purchase.

If they include the unit bases as well as individual bases, that may not be such an issue. Heck, they are saving money not including dice, and don't start me there.

"So he is upset that Mantic doesn't provide bases for another game not published by Mantic??"

Actually the based not included are for KOW. Especially as they may not relate to TOW.

And feel free to talk to me, I don't bite.

"real push for a "cheap" Warhammer."

Yeah, what happened to that?

Let's not forget creep. it's possible that mantic figures may out grow even TOW basing, if they only include unit bases.

I have been hoping for a long time that they would include model removal in the rules. Obviously they have no plans for that at this point.

You could do a fun version by removing ranks instead of wound markers. Either using a movement tray to retain the footprint or just growing a pair.

Now, even that option is being taken away.

Yes, you can buy bases, but, like screws, it's not the point. This is pushing the product down a certain road that goes far beyond bases.

Unit bases removes an element of reality and fun, watching units get whittled down. Heck, I remember WD (anyone?) battle report where the man of the game was a lone survivor of an Empire unit that ran about getting up to mischief.

Unit bases make it look more like toys so kids can't swallow them, or such like. Having them as part of a regular unit to help with figure removal and movement makes sense though.

I guess Mantic painters got sick of turning bases upside down because they couldn't figure out how to fill the stupid hole they created. You see a lot of upside down angles on their studio models. It's called al foil Ronnie! Works a treat.

And, speaking of, is this suggestive that they will be redoing earlier figures with round bases at the bottom?

Hopefully not, silly bases aside, I didn't like what they did with empire of dust, as much of a BSG fan as I am.

Nor the twilight kin. That was a change as you literally can't use them for dark elves.

Looking at the boxed game on the Mantic's site, I can't see that it specifies the included bases. They are unit bases, as shown.

Yes as shown, but so we're a naps box from Warlord shown, yet actually contains none at all.

Feel sorry for people buying it expecting to find individual bases. Remember some armies have been shown on unit bases, empire of dust for example, yet actually come with individual bases.

Roonnniiieee!!!

It does seem to be Mantic not wanting people to use the figures for other games easily. Also making it harder to use other manufacturers figures for Mantic games, as the weight and difficulty of unit basing metal figures, particularly trolls must be a hassle. Oh, but you can just buy Mantic's which are light weight plastic PVC or resin…

What was the date that mantic went from not being like GW, to being just like GW?

They are also fully moving into plastics. A shame. The highbred models were a great idea, and certainly EOD looks so much better, again as much as I love BSG.

GW went from Eclectic to standardized to sterile. I think Mantic is racing toward sterility already. But they haven't even finished being standardized, so it's all coming off half baked.

"It's not a big deal."

It is when looking at the business side.

What do you mean "the business side"?

I mean how the change in included bases suggests a change in the way they are doing business.

You can't just use the figures for Warhammer, for instance, even though that was the original point of them.

I was watching an unboxing by on table top and it was mentioned how the figures can be bigger and how mantic have changed the number of figures in some units. If true, it suggests they may become too big for WFB, possibly TOW bases also.

Mantic's business side starts all caring trying to win over WFB players, but now it's burning the bridges.

People have been used, now are being discarded.

Less the Sheriff and Robin, now the Sheriff and Guy, playing a game called John.

I mean how the change in included bases suggests a change in the way they are doing business.

So what? If you like the figures, then buy 'em and get bases elsewhere. If you don't like them don't buy them.

If people buy their product then they will make a profit. If people don't they won't. They will stand or fall on their product sales.

Exactly.

So it's even more suggestive of a change in their business now that they are obviously not targeting Warhammer, or other games, players. Except Warcraft, of course.

Obviously, now, Mantic's aim is not to offer cheaper alternatives.

Going forward, their figures will become less compatible and likely more expensive.

Already they are not including dice and rulers and individual bases to cut costs as their figure costs likely increase.

People will complain, as appears to be he case, and they will put things back in the box and raise the price.

Oddly. Dropping the individual bases and lessening unit numbers does have the effect of, perhaps, making figures more suitable for larger individual bases, like TOW. However, they also seem to have weapons going everywhere, making ranking problematic. You could also say removing old sized (TOW wise) bases means it's easier for TOW players, as they would need new bases anyway.

It may be too early to fully guage what's actually going on. There is a definite change occuring.

The lack of dice and bases also suggests Mantic has got consumer stats that may suggest buyers are existing gamers with dice and not using the figures for other games that use 20mm bases. It may also suggest that buyers are TOW players who don't need dice due to their own boxed set or being WFB players originally, and have larger bases they would need to buy anyway with the room for larger figures.

All very interesting.

Already they are not including dice and rulers and individual bases to cut costs as their figure costs likely increase.

Really? Most gamers already have loads of dice and rulers, so there's not much point in including them in the first place.

The only time I've ever seen things like dice and rulers included with figures, is if it is being marketed as a complete game or starter set.

Umm…

They are…

The new 2 player starter box/s.

link

The Mantic site page for the new 4th edition Kings of War 2 player STARTER set.

"Is this good for first-time players?

Definitely – no prior wargaming experience required! To get up and running you will need a couple of things, many of which you'll likely have at home already. These are (i) a flat table to play on, (ii) some ordinary six-sided dice, (iii) an ordinary tape measure, plus (iv) some glue/clippers for assembling your miniatures."

Hello?

The problem now it's that you can't even remove models if you wanted to.

Now you have to place tokens (not included?) for wounds.

Regardless of silly unit footprints, simply removing a model, evem a rank is more sensible than piling up tokens to clutter the place and get missed/ lost/mixed up.

I watched a video where people were discussing all the different tokens people use. When they already have models that can be used.

Removing models also makes it looks like an actual battle.

I don't think I'll ever understand it. Yes, you can agree if you wish.