"Points for Ligny?" Topic

I re Uffindell's The Eagle's Last Triumph yesterday, and got just irked with his comments about how many Prussians there were relative to the French, and how little he discussed qualitative differences, that I took his OOB and calculated in "Column, Line and Square" points. (I'm away from home, but I can still do CLS from memory.) On that points system, Blucher had just under 3,500 points and 210 pounds (artillery being calculated separately.) His Imperial Majesty--not counting D'Erlon--was a bit over 7,000 points and better than 192 pounds. (French OOB was slightly less detailed. Add 6 pounds for each battery identified as 12-pound guns.)

OK, it would be an insane CLS battle, but the qualitative point is made, I think. Would some of you using other points-based systems care to run the numbers in them?

I have wargamed Ligny a number of times and frankly I'm always amazed the French managed to win. The Prussians must have been really, really bad and with awful commanders – but that isn't really how they come across in 1815.

Bad dice…

Level and rules, Martin?

Pretty much every third French infantryman is Imperial Guard. No Prussian Guard present. Pretty much every third Prussian infantryman is landwehr, mostly newly raised. All French infantry are regulars or Guard. French cavalry includes eight regiments of cuirassiers and two of Guard heavies. Nothing in the Prussian OOB heavier than a line dragoon, and not many of them.

A Prussian Army wouldn't have to be bad troops: the Prussian line infantry could be every bit the equal of the French line infantry, and a Prussian dragoon fully as good as the French equivalent. But the Prussians would still be massively outclassed, given all their Guards and heavy cavalry were with the Army of the Upper Rhine and not taking part.

How did you cost the Prussian tactical advantages of an obstacle with few crossings dominated by fortified villages?

I didn't, Alainin. I was point costing the armies, which was shat Uffindel was making a big deal about. Walled farmsteads, though, not fortifications, and many buildings south of Ligny Brook, which seems to have been fordable everywhere, at least by infantry. Also a long frontage for the available forces.

I didn't say they were fighting on a ping-pong table. It was the implication that Napoleon had an inferior army to do it with which set me off.

Hmph. Should note that you'd have to be completely looney toons to play Ligny unit for unit with CLS. I was only trying to get an idea of the relative quality of the armies. Biggest battle we ever fought with it was about a third this size. But we also found out that the bigger the battle, the lower the attacker's points edge needed to be. At half-table, 50%, at 9' table, 33%. 50% in a 6,000 point game (2,400 points vs 3,600 points) was a completely overwhelming advantage, and about all the defender could do was play for time.

And still no one has a point cost for these armies under, say, Empire of Napoleon's Battles?

OK RP, I crunched the numbers using 'Valour & Fortitude'

The armies at the Battle of Ligny were not equal in raw strength, but that does not necessarily mean the battle was unfair. Using approximate totals calculated for "V &F", the French army comes out at roughly 796 points compared with about 636 points for the Prussians. That gives the French a numerical advantage of around twenty-five percent.

In wargaming terms, however, that level of advantage is not excessive for an attacking force. Scenario design guidelines for Napoleonic battles usually assume that an army making a deliberate assault against a prepared defence should have something like a twenty to thirty percent advantage. The attacker must advance under fire, coordinate attacks, and dislodge defenders from strong positions, all of which generally require a numerical edge.

The Prussians under von Blücher also benefited from the terrain. Their line was anchored on a chain of villages such as Ligny, Saint-Amand, and Wagnelée, which functioned as strongpoints. In most Napoleonic rules, including "Valour & Fortitude", infantry defending built-up areas are extremely difficult to shift. This defensive advantage can effectively compensate for several battalions of additional troops, giving the Prussian army considerable staying power despite its lower points total.

I realise there were qualitative differences between the armies. The French force obviously included powerful elite formations such as the Imperial Guard and heavy cavalry, which increase the overall point value and also represent a strong shock capability. The Prussians, on the other hand, had large numbers of Landwehr units—less experienced troops but numerous and very capable of holding ground when supported by artillery and regular infantry. The Landwehr of 1815 were not poor quality troops.

Operationally, time pressure also favoured the defenders. Napoleon's objective was to defeat the Prussian army quickly before it could combine with the Anglo-Allied army of Wellington. That requirement forced the French to attack aggressively and rapidly, conditions that tend to favour a defending force holding prepared positions.

In practice the historical battle reflected this balance. The French achieved a tactical victory and forced the Prussians to retreat but they did not destroy the army.

Taken together, the numerical advantage of the French combined with the defensive strength of the Prussian position makes Ligny a fairly balanced engagement. In both historical and wargaming terms. IMO. it represents a classic situation where the attacker has superior numbers but must overcome strong terrain and determined defenders to achieve a decisive result.

And yes, I have wargamed as a Big Battle (using "General d'Armee") it and the result was very similar to the historical one.

" it represents a classic situation where the attacker has superior numbers but must overcome strong terrain and determined defenders to achieve a decisive result."

The French are outnumbered in infantry and guns at Ligny.

"Level and rules, Martin?"

Whole battle (would you expect anything else). Various boardgames, probably Napoleons Battles the most – the scenario is 'balanced' by the French having five times the command capability of the Prussiams. It is a meat grinder in AHGCs Waterloo as well.

Figure games: Horse Foot and Guns (various versionms), Portable Napoleonic Wargame and my own army level Napoleonic rules and naother homegrown set by someone else aimed at the entire 100 days campaign. The only way I could balance the scenario was by essentially only allowing the Prussians to activate one corps at a time, particularly given their terrain advantages.

Here are a couple of the more recent ones:

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