"Rules are fashion!" Topic

You were asked – TMP link

Are miniatures rules a matter of progress, so that the "outdated" set has no more purpose than a WWII tank on a modern battlefield? Or are they more like hemlines and hats, where everything old is new again?

48% said "fashion"
16% said "progress"

I quoted Ecliastes in the discussion.

Much of human endeavour is fashion.

As well as tradition

As well as being unclear on what its actual purpose is

Rules are what the beholder wants! For me they certainly are not fashion or tradition. If a set meets my requirements I use it untill somthing better comes along.

Modern rules are to a diffrent specification than mine are written, and the current specification is so diffrent from ours that they are unsuitable for me.

Rules are what you need them to be however you define that.

And what the beholder wants is based on fashion, tradition and "need"
Even you ushcha.. your not playing a game like the past iterations of of rules dealing with similar subjects.
These things apply even if we try to not follow them. I dont follow the usual approaches… I might borrow. But I accept that. Those things have an element in shaping my anti mainstream views.

Rules are what the beholder wants!

I tend to agree. If a new game system comes out which offers real benefits, it tends to take over. Rules design development is closer to evolution than fashion. Scale may have a fashion element, the rise of skirmish games for example. On the other hand skirmish games offer some very unique benefits – low unit count, quick games, low entry cost and so on.

Id say that fashion is evolution. What we do, wear, behave and play evolves.

I'd argue the rise in skirmish games etc is as much tne influence of Warhammer. Etc. Watching the rkse of these new wave of games feels like watching a game in the local GW store. Aided by rules being written by the same people.

New people coming into historical gaming from a WH background are playing in ways that are "familiar"

Fashion repeats itself without improvement. I remember Mini Skirts when first around in the 60'S then Maxi Skirts. They have been around a few times since then (my daughters wore them as fashionable many years later) with very little innovation since the 60's. Many (but not all) gams follow fashion but not innovation. SGII and DBM were definite major innovations in their way. Few other were perhaps Crosfire in it's day but to me, it degenerated from its routes and became "to Gamey" betraying it's excellent routes, depending on your "need you may not see it that way"

Without improvement…
That would require what…. improvement…. meant in that case.
Amd that you had enough people agreeing thats what it meant.

Id agree theres little innovation.
Its basically the same basic ideas rearranged in different ways. Really on the same type of mechanisms.

I see few rules that feel more like the thing they claim to model.

I suspect this is a definition thing. A good example of rules evolution is reaction tests. In the past reaction testing was very common, today its normally removed and replaced with command control. I must admit reaction testing does exist at skirmish level, where it is likely is optimal, but at a scale where you command battalion sized units, reaction tests are rare for newer rules. I suppose you could say that is fashion, but from a game system point of view it represents a game play improvement which is unlikely to be reversed. I recently went back to the old WRG Napoleonic rules and spent a lot of time spinning D6 reaction tests which most often had no result. It was an interesting game and brought back a lot of bad memories so I will not be trying that again. I am now moving on to Republique 5 which has command control and a sort of reaction test like mechanism built into the command system called Panic Tests, but which actually result the Combat results of any combat. Its an interesting idea which I am keen on trying. I am using the version dates 2021, but the original set of rules are much older.

What i see as evolution is a gradual move toward simplifying systems. So that players spend less time operating the mechanism and more fighting the battle.

Fashion as already mentioned is hiw certain systems become popular.

Tradition is that we are still sticking to certain aspects of how games work, despite other options being available. I see a lot rationalisation.behind that. It shows when more mold breaking rules come along. They may be recognised but they dknt gain traction. Or why rather conventional rules become fashionable… because they play in a familiar way.

Also if by evolution we just mean change or change to fit the environment. Then fashion and tradition are two of the main drivers.

Personally we can buck those things but if a rule set is to become more wide spread it needs to balance those things to survive. Whether thats in a club or country or the hobby more broadly.

And even if some people are evolving rules.. the rules themselves get played because of interest and popularity, fashion. Not because they have evolved of themselves or becauee the players are interested particularly in evolution… or they'd be evolving their own rules.
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What i see as evolution is a gradual move toward simplifying systems. So that players spend less time operating the mechanism and more fighting the battle.

I do agree, we are slowly removing unwanted game systems which don't add anything, or replacing them with game systems easier to use. More time moving your units, less time studying the rules or spinning dice for event which have minimal effect. It does not stop someone designing a complex game system, but one which contains all the complexity you wish but with as little friction in play as possible.

Yes… though a long way to go for me…
Easy recently listening to a discussion on a new set of rules thar while the design concepts sounded interesting. But the various different sub routines. It put me off as I felt id.ne swatting for an exam to learn it all.

Parsimony of mechanics. But because were locked in to certain traditional elements of what wargames rules are were tied to making certain elements more convoluted than needs be.

Thats why Ive not found a set of rules ive wanted to play as is

Learning a new set of rules is a rather unpleasant experience. I find its easier if you have arranged a game and know you need to study the rules to the point of being able to play them before a specific date. If they are new rules I normally reformat the rules, add a case system, cross referencing and examples. It's a lot of effort but does make the actual game easier to complete. My issue is I have gone through a number of Napoleonic's rules and came to the conclusion I do not wish to pursue those rules after 1-2 games, which means all my work is wasted. I do gain wisdom, but that is all. Even when you find a set of rules you like, you may eventually get sick of them and want to try something else, which is why I am slowly going through Napoleonic rules. After I lock down a good set of Napoleonic rules I am planning on try some WW2 one element equals a regiment set of rules, which is an unusual scale. It may end in disaster, but as I am old and retired, I have the time to pursue my hobby.

That's why I've given up on other people's rules.
Even ones that seem to have elements that sre unteresting they are mired kn too much clutter. Much of which ot too complicated and disconnected from the thing its trying to represent.

Tradition makes us gravitate to thjngs that are familiar, traditional… because then we dont have to invest time learning tok much new stuff… let a lone something radical…. even its closer to what were representing.

We stick with dice, especially with numeric dice… because we don't want but special dice… yet will spend fortunes on figures etc we don't or rarely use… and have spent money on more normal dice than we could ever use…
So we can have good and bad dice rolls in situations which shoild be about good or bad prep and goof and bad choices.

Fashion comes from the incremental changes followed get to a tipping point where enough changes have happend to set a the new fashion.

Similar with figures and periods.
We wet from 15 and 20mm… in certain periods… then 25/8mm became fashionable.

And smaller scales became more widespread… but to space and expense it like to 1 to 1 scale skirmish in 3mm.. cause im a rebel. 😉✌🏻

While i am not too keen on skirmish i must admit i am playing with a lot of new scales. 6mm ancients and Napoleonic's is something i am looking at a lot, and i have the force mixes ready and i think i have the rules i wish to use. I am also looking at 10mm WW2, but i am still looking at the rules to use. While i hate creating rules from scratch, because its simply too much effort, i tend to like tweaking rules until i get it closer to what i want. Even tweaking takes a lot of effort as you need to ensure you have printable rules and game aids for opponents to use. I have the time to do this.

I agree new rules arw work. And ive been…. inspired
.. by lots of ideas. 😉
I made the choice because with all the tinkering I wasnt able to get a rule set that felt like the accounts of combat. For me.it got to the point where, I didnt have another option. 😉

I agree new rules arw work. And ive been…. inspired

If you have been inspired, take advantage of that as it will allow you to put the effort into creating rules to its completion. I have designed one set of rules to completion and it was due to inspiration. I know i can't do it unless i have that driver to push me along, but i must admit the last 1% of the rules was the hardest bit and in the end it was other gamers who were using the rules which demanded it.

Sorry.. i.meanr inspired as inspired by other rule sets or parts there of.

I wrote my first set of rules in 85. 1 page. Becaue at that point i didn't have any actual rules.
I was playing RPGs by that point. Previously having written rules for that with a friend.

When I did proper war game rules they too often reminded me of the appendices of a badly written algebra text book.

The challenge has been what needed to be modelled and how.
To make the game feel like what I understood it would have been. While having somethjng that playable and is enjoyable to play.