"AAR: Charlie Don't Surf at DunDraCon" Topic

I had seen Kevin Van's spectacular table for Charlie Don't Surf at several Bay Area conventions but I always had a conflict. Last Saturday I walked into the minis room Saturday morning looking for a way to fill my day half an hour before Run Through The Jungle was scheduled to start! So I jumped in and had a great time.

The table was quite large, perhaps 8x8', with a square village in the middle: some rice paddies and a handful of buildings. There was jungle on all sides and one road out. The scenario had a small group of civilians in each corner that we, the US, had to rescue. We had lots of helicopters. We knew there were NVA in the jungle, with mortars somewhere nearby. We were able to "prepare" the battle field by dropping a couple acres of napalm and a huge smokescreen. We could call on 60mm mortars, 105 howitzers, and a pair of Cobra gunships!

Our plan was to put the napalm on one side and the smoke on the other. Two Hueys landed two platoons right next to civilians, in the smoke, so we got two platoons on the ground and two groups of civilians off before Charlie could do anything. We felt very clever at that point. Then we started taking light fire from pretty much everywhere and tried to hold it together while we moved across the ground toward the other two groups of civilians.

As we approached one of those groups an HMG opened up from the jungle. The civilians ran *toward* the HMG. The roll was random, but we decided the civilians were not the friendliest we thought they were and felt okay about firing at the HMG even thought it put them in danger.

In the fourth corner of the board we managed to get in contact with the last group of civilians and get them on a chopper. The Cobras finally showed up. We directed them towards the HMG which now had a platoon of NVA alongside it. The HMG fired at the Cobras, trying to chase them off; no good, they kept coming. An RPG appeared and fire at the Cobras! No good, the Cobras were still incoming. The platoon fired its small arms at the Cobras, and they ran away! Still on the board, could have used them the next turn, but the next turn never happened.

Meanwhile out of the smoking jungle where we dropped the napalm about a hundred platoons of NVA charged my first platoon on our right flank. Not to worry, my boys are in fine shape, in cover, with four dice of overwatch and flank support. Ideal preparation for a human wave. I rolled a very large number of dice, dozens, and killed a lot of guys. But they kept coming. We rolled close combat and did about equal damage, but they did a little more. One squad broke and ran and the retreat rules produced a very unlikely outcome, but there you go.

It was surprising that even though that platoon was ideal situated for a human wave it still got routed. If I were considering using these rules I would take a hard look at that.

Game was called on time. Kevin gave the US the military victory, since we got three of four groups out and did a lot of damage, but the political victory went to the NVA since US casualties were too high and they held the field. I'm not sure we ever had a chance to clear the NVA from the field, but I felt good about the situation because we were able to use firepower to move where we wanted and do what we wanted. If those civilians hadn't run into the jungle we would have got them all. The bad guys had to work for every thing they accomplished.

This was my first chance to play a Too Fat Lardies game. I own a few, have read even more, so I was curious to try it. Did not like it, definitely not my style. That fire table, ick. The hidden movement was great. Activation system is okay, but lots of games use that card-based system. As the US we had too much trouble getting any off board support, and the US can't really win without off board support. But the fire procedure is onerous and unnecessary, the table is a horror, and you need to keep track of way too much stuff for each platoon (casualties, shock, pinned, suppressed, overwatch).

I do not mind doing work, but there should be reward involved. You should not have to do administration. All the work you do in a game (looking stuff up, calculating, counting, tracking, marking) should have a reward. Otherwise why do it? Ever rule, every marker, everything on the record sheet should have a payoff. The work/reward ratio here is way, way off.

That said, Kevin Van knows how to make a game fun and I had a great time. It's a small paradox of our hobby that it's so much fun that even bad rules can produce a good time, leaving some people believing that the rules are great, even thought you had fun despite the rules, not because of them. But everyone I've talked to who's played in Kevin's game had a good time, so if you get the chance jump in, TFL not withstanding.

Mr. Van actually ran the game twice at DunDraCon, Friday noon and Saturday 10am. I think he runs his games twice at each con, which is probably a great idea I should emulate.

For that matter, I've heard a lot of people say they can't find good Viet Nam rules. I haven't looked, so I don't know.

Anyway, great time had by all. Thanks, Kevin! (I don't think he's on TMP, but it needs saying.)

Any photos of this great game with terrible rules?

Kevin has posted lots of photos of his games on his blog through the last few years: kayswargamingblog.blogspot.com

It's a small paradox of our hobby that it's so much fun that even bad rules can produce a good time, leaving some people believing that the rules are great, even thought you had fun despite the rules, not because of them.

In fact, I depend on this to make some really mediocre games into fun experiences.

We're miniatures gamers. We come for the toys, stay for the toys, and remember the toys afterward. The rules are just an excuse to play with the toys.

- Ix

Kevin has no functioning TMP account, so he asked me to post this reply for him:

Hi Andrew, this is Kevin posting using a friend's TMP account. I'd actually be posting myself, but for whatever reason I've never received the verification email to activate my account, despite trying a few times over the past couple of years.

First off, I'm really glad you had fun with the game. I'll happily admit that Charlie Don't Surf isn't perfect and won't be everyone's cup of tea. As a convention GM running games for lots of different players with different tastes, I'm always thinking about what works well and what doesn't. More than once I've considered hacking together a homebrew version of the game where i keep everything people enjoy and quietly drop the rest. Maybe one day.

You're absolutely right that parts of the game can feel fiddly. The activation system isn't my favorite element either, and the fire chart can be pretty granular and require some back and forth. There are definitely aspects I'd streamline if I were designing it myself.

That said, after trying several Vietnam-era rulesets, I ended up settling on this one largely because I really like how it handles fog of war. For me, that uncertainty is such a defining part of jungle and guerrilla warfare that I find it hard to enjoy systems that don't lean into it. I also appreciate that the core dice mechanics are simple enough that I can teach the basics in about 5 to 10 minutes, which is invaluable at conventions.

Just to give a little context on a few of the moments you mentioned:

1. Fire and air support do take some time to arrive, but once they're on the table, they tend to become very influential. The intent, as I understand it, is that they create a sort of pressure clock on the NVA or VC player, encouraging them to push their objectives before heavier support shifts the balance.
   
2. Taking the field usually happens once artillery and air begin boxing the VC in and limiting their options. The delay in support is meant to give them a window to act before that pressure builds. In your game, with air already up and both artillery cards still in the deck, things were starting to trend in that direction, though of course dice and timing always have a say.
   
3. The Cobra being forced to wave off was definitely a dramatic moment. It does require a fairly high roll on 2d6, and the VC player rolled exceptionally well there. Narratively, I tend to picture that kind of result less as small arms chasing off a gunship and more as concentrated, sustained fire from an entire platoon, an RPG, and 2 12.7 HMGs creating enough risk to force a break.
   
4. On the human wave assault, even though you were outnumbered three to two, you were actually rolling almost as many dice, only 1 less than the VC, so it wasn't as lopsided as it might have felt in the moment. The VC rolled very well there. In a way, their human wave is as decisive for them as artillery can be for the Americans. High impact, but not guaranteed, and I think despite losing you were in a good position to contain the situation (the cobra was hovering right above them after all)

I hope this doesn't come across as me trying to argue the points. I genuinely appreciate the feedback. As someone who runs this at conventions, hearing what players enjoyed and what they didn't is always useful. Thanks again for playing and for taking the time to share your thoughts.

He also said this link has more photos of his Vietnam games: link

- Ix

Great looking table there

I have a couple pictures, I'll try to put them up tomorrow.

And to clarify, I'd rather play CDS than, you know, NOT PLAY, so I'll play again. I just don't love this type of rules.

And I'm not whining about the off board support not showing up, just reporting it. That's not a flaw or an unfairness or whatnot, it's just what happened. Obviously we would have done better with some mortar support, or if those Cobra pilots had been just a little bolder, but the fun of a game is not knowing what's going to happen, and there it is.

And the human wave, iirc, wasn't completed. There was some more NVA about to hit the other side, we just didn't get to it. Maybe we would have driven off that side, since I think they had more ground to cover under fire before contact, or maybe they would have rolled up that flank. The LMGs over there might have gotten in. But you can only do so much with four (five) players in four hours.

I hope you get your TMP account figured out. It's unintentionally retro but good stuff happens here.

Man, that's a good looking table.