"Proxies: Yes or No?" Topic

Being good historical wargamers — and obviously slaves to historical reality — I'm sure that each and every figure we put on the table is 100% accurate…

…probably not.

We don't always own that figure, that vehicle, or that gun needed to "do it properly", so sooner or later most of us end up using proxies.

Next week I'm playing a Rapid Fire Reloaded game of the Battle of Mouen, using the scenario from the rulebook. Instead of British infantry, I'll be proxying British Airborne. The numbers, organisation and troop types will be identical. Why? I have Red Devils who have never been in a game.

The listed 25-pdrs will be represented by pack howitzers but will use the same stats. Likewise, my Cromwells which will stand in for Shermans, as I don't own any Shermans (apart from two Fireflies).

For me, this feels like a practical compromise rather than heresy — the game mechanics and force balance remain unchanged, even if the models aren't textbook perfect.

So where do you stand on proxies?
Same period only? Same nation? Same battlefield role? Or are proxies the thin end of the wedge that leads to madness and cats sleeping with dogs?

In a pinch, the game must go on!

If we play Borodino in 15mm I have to field a few units of 1806 Russians to make up the numbers!

Tally Ho!

Hmph. Usually, right nation, right troop type, right period--meaning in say, 6mm a scenario requiring a British horse & musket army will have to choose AWI or Napoleonic so tricornes will show up too late, and Belgic shakos will show up years early. There's just no room for every possibility, and not enough years to paint them all.

But usually I'll adapt scenarios to available forces rather than give them the stats of someone else--meaning in your situation, I'd just run the game as paras supported by pack howitzers and Cromwells, trying for a game where the commanders have the historical problems, which is the most important bit. (Also keeps me from remembering stats wrong.)

That said, historical miniatures wargaming is a pretty broad church: no reason not to do it your way if you're happy with it. WW II is tricky. I've got three microarmor WWWII German armies, and I could about guarantee any given scenario book will require something I don't have or don't have enough of.

WW2 is not my favourite period (some of my pals love it, especially D-Day & later, so I am happy to join in) but it doesn't mean I'll want to paint every ex-Czech or French lump of armour used by the Germans in Normandy.

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I will have to use the original stats because the game (we've played it as per the lists before) is finely balanced & adding "elite" paras would warp the result.

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I'm currently, madly, distractedly painting up a SYW Austrian army.
Long story, which I've recounted too many times. But that won't stop me.

I have about 15-20 Hinchliffe Napoleonic Moscow militia. They're going to be some hairy nosed barbarian Pandours.
Ditto some RSM "Balkan auxiliaries".
I have some Renaissance Polish officers, etc, who will be officers for said Pandours.

I got a bargain price on Hinchliffe Napoleonic British Hussars who will join the Austrian army. Maybe Prussian too? 🤔

My Hessians and Brunswickers will now become Prussians. Ditto Lauzun's Legion.

Yeah. Proxies are evil.

Well done, John. I love the SYW too (they're in my top 20 wargames' periods).

In 1/72 – 20mm they're a hard ask.

Not giving myself pats on the back, but apart from most of the infantry (Revell and HaT and Wodenfield), nearly everything is scratch-built or converted.

At this scale, nobody produces cuirassiers, grenzers, Prussian artillery, etc., so — like the old Airfix hussars — many units were cobbled together from figures from other periods, painted appropriately, and pressed into service for the SYW (provided you don't look too closely).

The extra HaT tricorne heads were a real blessing.
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For example, I created Austrian cuirassiers by combining the legs of Zvezda Great War dragoons with Napoleonic Saxon cuirassier bodies, then going back to the dragoon heads — each figure made up of three separate parts.

Was it worth the effort? When I look at Strelets' WSS range, with set after set covering almost everything you could want, I sometimes think how easy the kids have it today.

Years ago, that sort of compromise that were proxies was often unavoidable. Today, with 3D printing, many of the old gaps can be filled far more precisely. But does that actually make proxies less necessary or does it simply mean our proxies now look closer to the ideal?

I'm curious where others draw the line.

I bet many a white-coated Austrian has served as a Spanish musketeers.

I don't know if 3d printing is really going to be a factor for most people. You still have to buy the figures, or everything needed to make the figures. To my example, the guy with 300 Austrians is not using them as proxie Spanish because he can't buy Spanish troops, he is using them for Spanish troops because he does not want to buy and paint an army of Spanish, particularly if he seldom needs them.

"I will have to use the original stats because the game (we've played it as per the lists before) is finely balanced & adding "elite" paras would warp the result."

Yeah, in that case you're stuck. Just be sure the Paras understand this is an exception and in later games they will still be expected to perform as elites.

I bet many a white-coated Austrian has served as a Spanish musketeers.

Well….
In my case, I'm using Old Glory FIW French as Spanish in Mexico.
And, yes. They're in the Transfer Portal to be Austrians. 😄😱🤦‍♂️
Don't accuse me of anything! Blame their copy-cat tailors!
I suppose my FIW British can be Hanoverians too.

RP – I'll have a word to them.

Your game or your table, your rules. If you don't mind, then nobody else should.

I use proxies all the time,but I'm much more particular about some periods than others. For Ancients, barbarians are barbarians, I don't give two hoots if the figures are actually Gail's, celts, picts or whatever.

I'm a lot more picky for WW1 and WW2, but will happily use Napoleonic Bavarians as standings for many/any minor nations.

I once used an unopened package of graham crackers as a proxy for a Space Marine Rhino.
Nobody complained… ;-)

I tend to call all German WWII halftracks "Sid-kafizzes". I never had a German FoW army, but I painted a few for friends.

The motto for Proxies is "They are what I say they are".

Depends on the game. Regular club game? Proxies all the way. Game at a show? Big efforts to get it right.

For one off games at club or with chums "stand in" figures absolutely fine I think.
"Outrageous" stand ins such as 10mm tanks instead of 15mm tanks, not good.
I am also disappointed by players who play a game 50+ times and still do not build an army for that game.
Just my thoughts.

martin

Seems there's broad agreement on the basics.

Proxies are fine when context allows: solo games, club nights, one-offs. Less so for shows or public demos where appearance matters.

Period seems to matter too. Many are relaxed for Ancients or SYW , far pickier for WWW2/modern conflict where kit recognition is central.

3D printing reduces the need for proxies, but doesn't eliminate them. Access, files, time and inclination all vary. Printed figures can still be stand-ins.

In the end, the old rule holds: they are what the owner says they are — provided everyone at the table agrees.

Oh & I must agree with Martin g. It is a game but you need to put some sort of effort in.

In the end I'd rather fiddle the figures then scrap a good scenario, but I'd look to correct the situation as soon as figure availability and painting time allowed.

For public consumption I'd be far stricter but I don't do convention games so its not my problem.

We are inching towards "I disapprove of how you are playing with toy soldiers!"

STOP THAT!

I have redcoats who proudly serve from the Rising to the Revolution. It's only a span of four decades and they are 15mm. Yes, I know, at 15mm I can tell the differences in uniform, I just ignore them.

I have a large collection of 2mm Ancients which are all "proxies" of a sort. They are identifiable as to broad troop type, archers, spears, warband, blades, heavy cavalry, light horse, skirmishers, but beyond that they have color coded shields to differentiate units and nationalities on thye table top. Today the yellow/red/orange shields are Gauls, tomorrow they will be Britons. This is one of the great advantages of 2mm gaming.

I can paint 2mm as proper historically correct troops. It's just nice to be able to use the same figures from Akkad to Agincourt.

Heresy. :)

I'd rather use proxies than not play.

I'd rather use good proxies than bad ones.

I'd assume everyone feels that way, except for perhaps a few. So perhaps a better question is, would you refuse a game that uses proxies or that uses particularly bad proxies?

Well said, Andrew.

Martin G: Once upon a time, somebody in my group found a "great" new set of WWII rules that called for troops on the table plus a turn track with the reinforcements that were coming on each turn. Since we had nowhere near enough 15 mm figures for both track and table, they used mostly 1/285 stuff for the reinforcement track, while fighting things out on the table with 15 mm. There was a slight tendency to hope our 75 mm AT gun was destroyed before we had to place a 1/285 gun on the field. And sometimes that "hope" was father to the action on the table.

Aside from that, my proxying has been limited to buying the closest thing I can find--ACW Union infantry for Palins Indian Wars US infantry.

Grelber

Andrew +1

It doesn't bother me as long as the weapons are right.
1) A slinger is a slinger whether he's from Crete or Balaeric Islands. Who really knows the difference anyway?
2) Horse and musket: I wouldn't want a cuirassier to be a hussar, but a Russian Dragoon for an Asauastrian, why not? Same goes for the foot-slogger. Dude with a musket is a dude with a musket.
3) WW2: Wouldn't want a PzIII to be a Tiger, but a Sherman's a Sherman.

This all for a friendly game at home or local hobby store. If you're doing a demomstration at a convention – then I like it to look pretty.

Proxies are good for one off games, or testing rules. But if you need the correct figure/unit more than a couple of times then no.

Funnily enough the only thing that really gets me interested in WWII is using captured armour- a french tank with the turret ripped off and a 100mm artillery piece fitted to it, with an open part armoured crew compartment – that's a lovely thing to see – and much more representative of reality. Huge parts of the German forces were cobbled together crap, it's part of the reason they had such a hopelessly inefficient logistics chain.

Although I am comfortable using my redcoats in tricorns for the whole of the tricorn era I wouldn't feel right using them for shakos or pith helmets. I wouldn't let it stop me if that was the only way to get a game, but as Micman says, more than a couple times and I want something closer to the right figures.

Andrew +2

Speaking of redcoats, can someone kindly explain to me the difference between redcoats of the ‘45, and the FIW?
The waistcoat has a rounded edge vs a pointed edge.
And something to do with the belt…

I sincerely believe that switching to white breeches was a grand mistake.

In '45 the coat was a little longer and looser,

I only have Red, Blue and Green armies wearing Napoleonic style uniforms. I'll happily use them for any 18th or 19th century battle up to/including the Crimea and early ACW, for ImagiNations and for HG Wells' Little Wars. I've given up worrying about uniform details;I just want to fight interesting/entertaining wargames with toy soldiers!

I only have Red, Blue and Green armies wearing Napoleonic style uniforms. I'll happily use them for any 18th or 19th century battle up to/including the Crimea and early ACW, for ImagiNations and for HG Wells' Little Wars. I've given up worrying about uniform details;I just want to fight interesting/entertaining wargames with toy soldiers!

I agree with Andrew Walters.

John the OFM: The biggest visible difference in the minis I use is the color of the campaign leggings. White for the '45 and black for the FIW. Both also get brown, tan, ticking, and what ever else the troops scrounged on campaign. At 15mm and smaller I'm not going to be fussed with lace details or the cut of the coats. That they get proper facing colors will suffice.

I do have a force of romantic but wrong red coats proudly serving in the Sudan. Including a unit of Post Office Rifles simply because I like the name and the variety of uniform. That they may never have fired a shot in anger troubles me not one bit.

I did once play against a fellow who proxied some of the more outrageously priced GW figures for his lizardman army with plasticene proxies. A little crude but they did the job.

As has been stated, having beautifully painted up armies, is really good form for public displays, conventions and tournaments. Exact period uniforms is great. But solo gaming and casual play between friends allows a relaxing of "protocol", i'll play with what I have.

Proxy armies are a great way for new players to be introduced to an era or a set of rules that the players has zero exposure or familiarity with. I like the concept recently shared on Little Wars TV. They went one step further, promoting a free basic play rule set variation of Fistful of Tows to introduce gamers to World War II miniatures. They offer printed 2-D sheets of infantry and armor units to allow the players to make up units without having to commit to a particular scale or line of miniatures. Paper proxy. Great concept to encourage newbie participation.

Brooded a bit. I guess what it comes down to for me is that I want all the information on the tabletop--friend or foe and what type of each, and ideally formation and status. It's how I play and what I'm used to. So using, say, Westphalian infantry in a Peninsular battle where there should be Kingdom of Italy doesn't slow me down a bit--nor a British unit in Belgic shako in an 1809 battle: they're still Confederation and British Line respectively.

Guards or Rifles as line or a horse artillery battery as a foot gun throws me a little off. I can see how Ochoin is stuck in this instance, but it would take constant effort on my part to remember what they're supposed to be and not what they are.

But since I can't make it to this game, as long as it doesn't bother those who are there…

I am well known locally as King of the Proxies. But everything on the table is painted!

One answer if you don't have the correct figures is to tell the players you're engaged in a disguised scenario. This has the double advantage that they will then start looking for the disguise and potentially completely fool themselves in the process.

When I first started painting AWI, the very first regiment I painted was the 38th Fiot. Why? Because I had purchased 3 uniform books, each of which showed a different soldier in that unit.
Problem. They arrived late, and compared to other fine regiments did little.
Yet, they have appeared in almost all my games.
Like when an actor is replaced in a soap opera, "Un tonight's battle, the part of the 28th Foot will be played by the 38th Foot. Tip your waitress."

So, until I made the monumental decision to paint regiments that actually fought in that battle or theater, almost all my units fought as proxies.

Yes, very happy to proxy, as long as the 'information content' of the figures is the same. And I would be pretty flexible about changing morale statuses and so on – a veteran line unit can easily replace a grenadier formation, a supposedly 'elite' formation can still have some inexperienced units within it, or just be having a bad day, and so on.
But in many cases you can just change the scenario too.

I will proxy to a limited extent. I won't proxy units from a different period. Usually my proxies are in the form of the 2nd Continental Dragoons will play the part of the 3rd Continental Dragoons.

I have Hessions and a few Brunswick units for the AWI. I use them for all AWI German units no matter what the scenario calls for. I suspect when I get around to the French and Spanish it will be the same way.

However I am doing up some 28mm 1768 Warrant British just for Lexington/Concord and Bunker HIll. If needed I will use them for Long Island and other battles.

My group plays 15mm Napoleonics and I have most of the British battalions. They are 1815 British but my group wants to do Spain and so we use my British with the Belgic shakos because I haven't gotten around to painting up figures for Spain. They work just fine and no one seems to get upset over it.

I believe to proxy is okay as long as the figures are period correct. I would not use my AWI British for the Crimean War.

I mostly play ancients and medievals, where what troops looked like is often largely guesswork, so I tend to be fairly relaxed about proxying.

It's also a question of context. In "normal" games I try to stick to vaguely plausible proxying, with troops that may be identifiably of the wrong century but look at least something like what the real troops are likely to have done. When doing playtesting I've on occasion used anything that comes on the right size of base. Memorably, I once pressed a few pony herds into service when I didn't have enough elephants painted for what the designer wanted me to test.