"The World Turned Upside Down – 2nd Canadian Regt. Part Two" Topic

Not exactly a new addition to my collection, as the 2nd Canadian (Hazen's) Continental Regiment was showcased in August last year, but I needed to 'beef' the unit up to a twenty figure regiment to better reflect it's usual operating strength, and while I was at it gifted the regiment a new Congressional Colour, to better reflect it's rather unique association.

Alongside the work on building the figure collection I have got stuck into some much needed terrain items which will be showcased in future posts.

I have included a link to my previous August post covering the unit's history, and you can find out more on JJ's

link

JJ

Very nice work! And I was impressed by the fact that most of the guys are in step. 😊

Very nicely painted figures! I continue to be impressed with your painting skills

But you need to reverse the positions of the national colors and the regimental colors. The US colors are always on its own right.

Jim

Your work is great. I am running out of superlatives for your posts.

Except that in the American Revolution, there were no "National Colors". Seriously. It wasn't until the War of 1812 that there were true "National Colors".
At least it isn't the fraudulent Betsy Ross flag. Which I'm not afraid to admit, has graced three of my American units. But that was back in the previous century and well past the Statute of Limitations.
The surviving flag from the Whiskey Rebrllion hints at a version of a National flag, but it's an Eagle. Not Stars and Stripes.
Remember that at this time the term "United States" was a plural name. It was still a collection of states. Not a real nation. "United States" as a singular noun is a product of the Civil War.
But I digress.
Yes, the British army in the AWI had King's Colours plus a Regimental Colour. France had a similar system, but not exactly the same. The German contingents were also similar but not identical.
American, or to be more accurate, Continental regiments had one. Since they were raised by the several states, their flag would reflect the State.
The Canadian regiments were "additional" Continental regiments. Why would a "Canadian" regiment fly an "American" flag? 🤔

This isn't a hill that I'm willing to get a head cold over. In this gamer's opinion, all units deserve a flag. One is more than enough, and it would not be the Stars and Stripes. I recognize the other flag for "Congress Own". That's correct.

Oh, yes. Very nicely painted.
I was too busy with my vexillology rant…

Have you sought treatment for your vexillology, John?

It's relatively under control. Relatively.

There is no evidence showing that a star and stripes flag was used in the field. Probably didn't exist until after the war. Would a Canadian regiment on our side or not, carry an American flag?

I'm saying no stars and stripes flags, even though some of my American regiments has those flags before I knew better but I am not changing them.

Interestingly enough, Richardson shows Stars and Stripes flags used as naval ensigns and also over fortifications. (Maybe)
But definitely not in the field.

"…but I'm not changing them."
Exactly. My regiments flying Stars and Stripes, including Betsy Ross 😱 have fought well. It would be blasphemous to take their flag away! The error was mine. Not theirs. So they should not be punished for my error.

Hi Chaps,
Thanks for your comments, very much appreciated, and it appears I seem to have inadvertently started a whole different thread – what fun!

79thPA – You are too kind sir.

Jim – consider me blushing with embarrassment, you are quite right, and even though the point you made has gone off in a different direction, if the 2nd Canadian ever carried Congress's flag it would most certainly have had precedence over the regimental colour and have had the position of honour on the right. Perhaps I can claim that Colonel Moses is demonstrating the signal for a regiment in distress, rather like the navy flying their ensigns upside down – Oh before I start another thread, that's a joke!!

As regards the points mentioned about national colours and what are Canadians doing with it anyway.

I would humbly put forward the following points, that making any firm statements about much to do with the AWI, particularly about the look of American Continental and Militia units and the colours they may or may not have carried is something I try to avoid, and unless there is clear recorded evidence to the contrary, artistic licence takes precedence with a quota of educated guesswork.

I believe from references that George Washington and Horatio Gates had very differing ideas about the arrangements of Continental regimental and national colours with the former very much leaning towards the British convention of a National (King's) Colour and a Regimental Colour and the latter recommending just a Regimental one with divisional ones across the line, harking back to the days of the English Civil War, but as John makes reference to, the States were very much in the driving seat it seems in deciding what Colours were issued, along with most other items of equipage.

With no definite and definitive decision and directive, this leaves a fair amount of licence to the historical gamer to make a choice as to how to portray a look, and thus I have some Continental units with two colours and some with just one, and because I'm using sabot bases I can change that look at will and deploy units with no colours when acting as detachments, or not carrying them, which, as with British units, happened on occasion.

As regards a Canadian regiment carrying American Colours, I think it safe to say that the 2nd Canadian Regiment were Canadian, mainly in name only. When raised as a cadre during the 1775-76 invasion of Canada and assault on Quebec they were intended to draw in principally disaffected French Canadians from the British Crown, hence their French order of battle, but as with the 1st Regiment weren't very successful in that endeavour, with it seems little enthusiasm for rebellion in Canada from former British or French settlers.

This fact perhaps explains them coming under the direct control of Congress and allowing them to recruit across all the States, something Colonel Moses Hazen was particularly successful at doing, with von Steuben congratulating him on a well drilled and capable unit in 1780, and their later amalgamating with the 1st Canadians.

As far as I can assess, Congress did authorise their own flag hence my inclusion, and as far as Betsy Ross is concerned, Richardson makes reference to it being carried by Philadelphia Naval units but I can't find any definitive reference to it being carried by the army, but neither can I confirm that it definitely wasn't. So you wont find me objecting to it.

My two-pennies worth of thoughts that I hope explains the artistic decision making I go through when creating my units, although I should say matters are so much simpler with my British collection.

JJ

Great looking troops as always.

The British had at least 3 "Warrants" regarding uniforms and flags prior to the start of the American Revolution. And the French certainly had similar, as did the various German states.

The United States (plural) were starting from scratch.
The Gostelowe Standards are fascinating. We know about them mainly from an inventory from the bureaucracy of the Continental Congress. If there was anything the CC was good at, itvwas bureaucracy. Ask Benedict Arnold… 🙄
These were "regimental flags" issued by what passed for the American National government at the time. There MIGHT be in the upper staff quarter a field of stripes, or stars. But not in all cases. Richardson does some shrewd guesswork regarding which states they were issued to. Many colors, many colorful symbols and so on.
I would call the Gostelowe standards the closest we can get to anything resembling a National flag.
Google them. They're pretty! And I use them whenever I can. I'm sure they're available commercially. If you print your own, go for it.
I've also used Stars and Stripes in the past, and also Betsy Ross. But I'm not "fixing" anything.
I am notorious on two gaming sites for pontificating that "As the Colonel shall decide" is the mantra for our painted units. And yours are very nice.

I only brought up this long winded rant because of the mention of proper placement of National Colors above. Being a card carrying know it all, I had to throw in my two cents.
Sorry if I may have caused offense.

Hi huron275, thank you, glad you like my new recruits.

Hey John, not at all, no offence caused, and I appreciate your comments. Your previous remarks made me go away and do some more homework on the Betsy Ross and indeed the Stars and Stripes final adoption as a national colour for the army.

I have used the Gostelowe offerings from Flags of War and had one on my German Regiment, featured in my previous post, another unit with not a lot of information on look and flags, but I decided a Gostelowe would be appropriate given their's and the Gostelowe illustrations links with Pennsylvania.

JJ