"What is the point of NATO anymore?" Topic

The reality is that more and more drones of all types will be seen on the battlefield no matter environments they are used.

The Case For NATO: Leaving Europe Would Be A Serious Strategic Mistake For America

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Final Destination: How Russia's Scenario Driven Actions Project onto NATO

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Armand

As a side note: all that is said about the dangers of alliances is shown in the recent Iran War. Allied Nations get drawn into conflicts, rogue nations holding bigger nations hostage. It is clear that the US has to be considered no longer trustworthy. I do not know if China will get more influence in the Golf region working more closely with Iran, hopefully Turkey will bring more balance.
I am looking forward to see the USA concentrating their efforts towards containing China. Unfortunately Trump failed to make sure that Taiwan is totally off-limits for China. As the European nations will stop financing the US military and develop weapon system and IT on their own, the US superiority in military matters might dwindle enough that going head-to-head with China will end badly

If Europe stopped buying US military equipment and instead built its own, the biggest winners would probably be European industry and strategic independence. It would create jobs, strengthen companies like Airbus, BAE, Rheinmetall and Saab and reduce reliance on US political decisions.

The US would certainly lose export sales and influence but I doubt it would be a complete disaster. The Pentagon is still the primary customer for US defence companies, so they'd remain major players.Estimations are US arms exports could fall by $15 USDbillion to $30 USD billion annually if the Europeans stopped spending in the US.

The catch is that Europe would have to spend hundreds of billions over many years to replace existing US systems and develop equivalent capabilities. It's certainly achievable but neither quick nor cheap. The real challenge may be getting European governments to agree on common equipment rather than each nation pursuing its own designs.

I would think if they come to believe the US is an unreliable partner, this will drive the necessary unity of purpose.

Most in Europe can't really to all the R&D and build many of their own equipment.

And it seems many in Europe's priority are not defense. Many have downsized their militaries.

They want to spend more of progressive woke, etc. 💩💩💩💩 It seems.

They must have been depending on the US to come to their rescue like in two wars already.

It is clear that the US has to be considered no longer trustworthy.

No … the US wants NATO to pay their share according to NATO treaty … Trust has nothing to do with it. It is reality … NATO needs to get their armed forces in shape, spend $ on them … not whatever other they seem to be wasting it on …

I do not know if China will get more influence in the Golf region working more closely with Iran, hopefully Turkey will bring more balance.

China has done little since this war started. Save for giving Iran intel to strike and kill Americans … Turky is playing its own game … It appears they think they have better things to do …

Unfortunately Trump failed to make sure that Taiwan is totally off-limits for China

And you know this how ? The POTUS made Iran the priority. They are islamic fanatics. They want nukes to start their version of the End Times. Then go to paradise.

As with the rest of those Nuclear nations there is a very, very, high probability that Nukes will not be used … However It is a safe better if Iran got nukes, they'd use them …

So the Chicoms are not the #1 priority. You have to engage the clear & present danger. That is Iran …

There is no objective proof that Iran was working on nuclear weapons. It was only Bibi telling the same sh..stuff he's been talking for years. Trust me bro is kind of weird for starting a war. The threat to the US as stated by POTUS is not proven. It baffles me how easy americans go to war if someone says WOMD.

The treaty that obliged the NATO states to spend 2% of their GDP was rather a declaration of intent, all countries were supposed to increase their spending to 2% in 2024. The majority hit that target. All the rubbish talk was done to create a "US against them" atmosphere, as perceived unfairness from aliens is a strong tool to form group coherence.
Social security programms in Germany were started by the not so woke iron chancellor Bismarck in 1883.
Maybe the Iranan and the US government can find strong connections in declaring wokeness evil and a threat to religious freedom ?

Legion you are wasting your time. Based on past posts, you know the views of these two. 😉

But keep it up anyway. 👍

Make sure to include Australia and not just the EU, since one is an Aussie. Although sometimes I'm not sure that Australia is in his heart and not Europe (Scotland). Would that classify as a non-assimilated migrant? 🤔

"do not know if China will get more influence in the Golf region" 🤔

Pine Valley Golf Club?
Royal County Down Golf Club?
St Andrews Links (Old Course)?
Some other course?

"I am looking forward to see the USA concentrating their efforts towards containing China. Unfortunately Trump failed to make sure that Taiwan is totally off-limits for China."

Where are all those "newly strong" world nations doing that?

Germany who managed to start two world wars and fought nearly everybody?
France who attempted to conquer all of Europe under a Corsican?
UK, who had a world empire? (Britannia rules, the world!).
Japan who tried to dominate the pacific with its own empire?
Spain?
Australia?
Norway? (Row Vikings Row!)
All United together?

Of course not.

It MUST be the U.S… Again right? 🙄 Hey! given not to many more years.. it will be a century of the U.S. defending the world.

Like kicking kids out of your basement, when you give them free room and board into their 50's.

I know, tough love is a bitc#.

Time to pull on the big boy pants again. Dump those socialists freebies, 2 years mandatory military service for all. Time to stop relying on daddy and mommy, after 80 plus years. Get out of the basement and find your own homes.

I can give some of the Central European countries credit for doing that.

Ha! While it's true that the current Executive branch has autocratic tendencies and "wokeness" is used as a political rallying cry, it is otherwise nothing like Iran….

Good point about Bismarck. America has done same, but has included tax loopholes for its elites, and things like tobacco grower subsidies and cancer research subsidies to the same state. Not as "woke" as we think, assuming you use the actual meaning of the term to mean aware and alert. Europe is still not a unified nation of states. The US contributes 16% of NATOs annual budget. It does spend more on military budgets than anyone, but this is also a matter of its own self interests and defense industry profits.

Tort, than there is the Pacific, Caribbean, Africa, Central America, South America, the Arctic, the Middle East, the ocean lanes of the world for trade, can we even leave out space…. "the final frontier"?

We seem to be spread mighty thin. Anyone else taking on as much? Even near as much?

Thanks we get? Not much here.

"No foreign countries send direct financial checks or military hardware to the United States government to fund its global Freedom of Navigation Operations (FONOPs) or its overall defense of international shipping lanes. Instead, the U.S. relies on its own defense budget to police global waters."

….

"Other global fleets rarely patrol the open oceans completely on their own; instead, they operate independently within their immediate regional waters or rely on integrated alliance networks to maintain global maritime safety.Because building a "blue-water navy" capable of global power projection costs billions of dollars, only a handful of nations possess fleets that can operate far from home without U.S. logistical support."

Add a few joint operation games to it.

But still comes down to good old mom and dad. ("But MOMMMM houses are expensive!").

I'll offer a perspective here — at the risk of the usual "yeah, but you're a Canadian" response. For context, I spent 20 years in military operational research at the strategic and alliance level, and another 16 years applying OR to homeland security and emergency management. Over that time I've had excellent working relationships with many American officers and analysts, and I say this with respect for that experience.

The point about the U.S. carrying a heavy global load is true. But it's also important to remember that the current structure didn't simply fall onto America's shoulders. It grew out of long‑standing U.S. policy choices: discouraging allied nuclear programs, encouraging interoperability through U.S. equipment, and building a global logistics and basing network that only the U.S. could sustain. The predictable result was that allies developed strong regional forces while the U.S. retained the global responsibilities.

A simple comparison illustrates this. The UK chose deep integration with the U.S., which keeps costs down but creates dependence — even its nuclear deterrent relies on U.S. systems. France chose strategic autonomy, paid more for it, and maintains a genuinely independent – albeit limited – global capability. Both are rational choices, but only one significantly reduces the U.S. burden.

So yes, the U.S. does more than anyone else. But it also shaped a system in which no one else could do as much. That's not a criticism — just the historical context behind today's situation.

What I'm not seeing, however, is a clear articulation of the future world the U.S. wants. The current national strategy has some good starting points, but it also contains inconsistencies and unexamined long‑term consequences. That's why the real question isn't simply whether the U.S. is overextended. It's whether the U.S. still wants the world it built — and if not, what the next version looks like, and who gets to shape it.

Tortorella wrote:
"The US contributes 16% of NATOs annual budget. It does spend more on military budgets than anyone, but this is also a matter of its own self interests and defense industry profits."

The US GDP is 30 Trillion dollars (2025)
The GDP of all NATO members is 65 Trillion Dollars.
All NATO troops are under US command
All members combined spend 1,5 trillon dollars
"NATO spending" :
1. Common-Funded Budgets (Direct Costs)These funds cover the direct costs of running the organization, its headquarters, and collective military command structures.Annual Budget: Approximately €4.60 EUR billion to €5.30 EUR billion.
~€438.1 million for headquarters administration.
~€2.03 billion to over €2.70 EUR billion for the operations of the NATO Command Structure, joint missions, and AWACS.

It is still all hot air, I do not know why people don't double check what their governments tell them by default

Of course the US cannot be compared to Iran, it is a totalitarian regime.
I meant Iran, just to make sure.

@shadoe01
as far as I know the working relationship within NATO is nothing like the sh$tshow you see in the news and social media, or here at TMP. Thank god! Unfortunately the US high command is under enormous job pressure from amateurs.
Am I allowed here at TMP to say that Hegseth hasn't performed well so far?

Shad that all made sense when the Soviets were the only show in town and China was a fart in a whirlwind.

No longer the case. The U.S. needs to divorce itself of the perspective that we must defend the world on all fronts.

Others,

Europe was happy with Obama and Biden. Why not, they demanded little (well Obama might have asked, but the leaders laughed him off and he was happy to listen longingly to the Muslim morning call to prayer.)

Joe and his SOfD were just too happy to give whatever was demanded, by the EU and whoever controlled Joe at home, to the Ukraine on demand.

Business as usual. Mom and Dad were just too happy to let the kids stay home, rent free.

I would have liked them too.

Pete, he is doing what many of us want. He is cleaning house of the DEI appointees, the career Washington boot lickers, the snitches and leakers. Making the military get tough again, instead of hanging beer bellies and butts dragging the ground. The U.S. military has performed well under him, in each theater they have been used. From what I see and hear, "actual military" like him. Well except those he has been dumping.

Interesting side note. Amazing the things I've heard and seen from visitors over here for games. Quite happy and claiming what they see and hear here is nothing like what their media and politicians have been telling them, (Of course I've said you can't trust the media anywhere for years now).

On X and other web sites and their own blogs. Can we keep them and send you our socialist and commies to replace them? Please?

If you come here and stay out of some of the big East and West coast cities, Chicago and some of the more liberal college towns. The U.S. is pretty nice and the people nice. South, the Mid West and large chunk of the West. You could have fun.

Fortunately, I didn't judge Ireland on Dublin, or EU news sources.

Nice small montage:

Subject: Brits Visiting U.S. for First Time for World Cup Apologize to Americans: 'We Owe America a Huge Apology'


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Can we keep them please?

"
"We owe America a huge apology, because America is nothing like what the media tells us. Everyone is so friendly, everyone is so accommodating, and I've honestly had the best time."

Amazing to see all the eyes that have been opened to how amazing America is 🇺🇸🙏🏼

The media has seriously twisted the world's view of us but everyone traveling to the U.S. for the World Cup has exposed all the media's lies."

Germany's military is building its own version of Starlink

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Armand

Am I allowed here at TMP to say that Hegseth hasn't performed well so far?

Yes you are …

However, as a former tactical leader and commander. My experience and training say you'd be wrong … very wrong … But I see things a little different from my past vocation, etc.

Pete, he is doing what many of us want. He is cleaning house of the DEI appointees, the career Washington boot lickers, the snitches and leakers. Making the military get tough again, instead of hanging beer bellies and butts dragging the ground. The U.S. military has performed well under him, in each theater they have been used. From what I see and hear, "actual military" like him. Well except those he has been dumping.

Yes … completely agree …

Interesting side note. Amazing the things I've heard and seen from visitors over here for games. Quite happy and claiming what they see and hear here is nothing like what their media and politicians have been telling them, (Of course I've said you can't trust the media anywhere for years now).

Yes the truth has come out … regardless of some in Congress, the media, etc. continue to say.

"We owe America a huge apology, because America is nothing like what the media tells us. Everyone is so friendly, everyone is so accommodating, and I've honestly had the best time."

Amazing to see all the eyes that have been opened to how amazing America is 🇺🇸🙏🏼

The media has seriously twisted the world's view of us but everyone traveling to the U.S. for the World Cup has exposed all the media's lies."

Bingo ! OVI + 10

"If you come here and stay out of some of the big East and West coast cities, Chicago and some of the more liberal college towns. The U.S. is pretty nice and the people nice. South, the Mid West and large chunk of the West. You could have fun".

"We owe America a huge apology, because America is nothing like what the media tells us. Everyone is so friendly, everyone is so accommodating, and I've honestly had the best time."

Where is the World Cup being hosted in the US…
Atlanta, Boston, Dallas, Houston, Kansas City, LA, Miami, New York/New Jersey, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Seattle. No East Coast or West Coast cities in that lot?

Ask Scotland how they liked liberal, very east coast Boston. There are few places more American than Fenway Park.

Some parts of America have been duped by their media into believing that the extremists are the norm everywhere politics don't conform to their beliefs. The average Americans, not the elites, the grifters, the power brokers, cheats, etc that plague most of human society, are pretty decent people wherever you go, even if you have to scratch the surface a bit in some places.

Blamer culture is a hallmark of today's politics, exagerrate some scapegoats and you play on peoples fears and build your own empire. We get played all the time. But Americans are still good hearted underneath the craziness.

There is no objective proof that Iran was working on nuclear weapons. It was only Bibi telling the same sh..stuff he's been talking for years.

The first credible suspicions of Iran's nuclear weapons programs emerged in 2002/2003 with the discovery of undeclared centrifuge programs in violation of IAEA reporting guidelines. By 2011 the IAEA confirmed the presence of a formal nuclear weapons program in Iran.

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Summary of IAEA November 2011 Report on Iran (GOV/2011/65)This Director General's report to the Board of Governors and UN Security Council details Iran's implementation of its NPT Safeguards Agreement and compliance with relevant UNSC resolutions. It covers developments since September 2011 and includes a major Annex on possible military dimensions (PMD) to Iran's nuclear programme.

iaea.org

Key Findings on Safeguards and Declared ActivitiesIran continued enrichment and related activities at declared facilities (Natanz FEP/PFEP, Fordow FFEP) in violation of UNSC and Board resolutions requiring suspension.Natanz: ~54 cascades (~8,000 IR-1 centrifuges) installed; produced ~4,922 kg LEU (UF₆) total since 2007. Producing 20% enriched UF₆ at PFEP (~80 kg total by late 2011).
Fordow: Construction ongoing; centrifuges being installed for 20% enrichment (initially two sets of interconnected cascades).

Heavy water projects (e.g., IR-40 reactor at Arak, HWPP): Ongoing construction and operation, contrary to resolutions.
Uranium conversion/fuel fabrication (UCF, FMP): Activities for 20% fuel production and testing.
Agency continued safeguards at declared sites but could not verify full compliance due to restrictions. Environmental samples largely consistent with declarations where checked.

iaea.org

Possible Military Dimensions (PMD) — The Landmark AnnexThe report's most significant element is the detailed Annex (based on intelligence from multiple sources, including member states) outlining credible indications of:Structured nuclear weapons-related programme until at least 2003, with some activities possibly continuing afterward.
Efforts to procure dual-use equipment by military-linked entities.
Undeclared nuclear material production pathways.
Acquisition of nuclear weapons design info from clandestine networks (e.g., AQ Khan).
Work on high-explosive testing, neutron initiators, missile re-entry vehicle integration, and other weaponization components.
Computer modeling and experiments relevant to nuclear explosive devices.

publicintelligence.net

The Agency expressed increasing concern that Iran had not addressed these issues substantively since 2008. Iran rejected the allegations as "fabricated" but offered limited dialogue.Overall Assessment and ContextIran not implementing modified Code 3.1 or Additional Protocol fully.
Limited cooperation on outstanding issues.
The report heightened international concerns, leading to the Board's resolution (GOV/2011/69) expressing "deep and increasing concern" about PMD and urging full compliance.

iaea.org

This 2011 report marked a turning point, providing the most detailed public IAEA assessment to date of potential weaponization efforts, shifting focus from purely enrichment to broader military dimensions. It remains a foundational document in the history of the Iran nuclear issue.

You are right Tort. Most Americans is themselves as being in the center when it comes to politics. They are neither Far Left or Far Right. Sadly, both parties now listen to the extremists and thus little gets done that needs getting done.
Many regions of this country are known for their friendly people. Most Americans have a big heart.

Russian warship carried out firing exercise off Plymouth coast

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Europe's defense build-up is delivering for NATO — and America

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New Canadian Submarine – Good for NATO Bad for RCN

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Armand

Denmark begins extended military conscription in response to Russia, Trump

"Around 1,600 Danish military recruits on Monday began the country's new extended conscription, embarking on an 11-month service period as Denmark accelerates its defense build-up driven by Arctic security pressures and the war in Ukraine.

Denmark said in 2024 it would extend conscription to include women for the first time and increase standard service time to 11 months from four, while the number of conscripts is set to increase to 7,500 annually by 2033 from 5,000…"

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Armand

A Bargain Waiting on NATO's Eastern Edge: Romania

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Armand

Europe Doesn't Need to Spend More on Defense

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Armand

Teaching the Most Pro-American Nation to Hate America

"There is a street in Tbilisi named after George W. Bush. Count the capitals on earth with a street named for an American president. It will not take you long.

For years, Georgia was the largest non-NATO contributor of troops in Afghanistan. For years, IRI polling told the same story: roughly three-quarters of Georgians backed a pro-Western course. I come from a family that spent three generations inside the Soviet system. We know what America is worth. We know precisely because we remember what it is like without it.

Today the same people curse America.

This did not happen on its own. It is taught. And it is taught from two directions at once — in stereo…"

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Armand

Britain's Former Military Chief Furious about Defense Shortfalls

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Armand

Fighter jets help destroy Russian drone boat near European offshore gas platform

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Saab Unveils A3-001 Collaborative Combat Aircraft Concept

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Armand