| Stalkey and Co | 08 Jan 2026 6:46 a.m. PST |
This has come up in a couple of places, and I definitely have some things that annoy me about Nap wargame rules old and new. I invite you to post your most annoying fictions that often show up in Napoleonic rules. Here's a few of mine: - Cavalry have the capability of "breaking a square"
- Cavalry can win a straight charge into the front of an infantry line with secure flanks… cuz you know, it's "thin" at only 3 deep instead of FOUR deep like a square.
- yeah, how about "emergency square"?
- French routinely charge enemy lines in column, and "won" the melee.
- French or anyone at all often deployed with several columns right next to each other. This enabled them to create "mass" that would CRUSH an infantry line. It also made it easy for them to hand off little bottles of mustard to each other as needed.
- 90% of casualties come from the clash of bayonets in melees that happened constantly in every battle.
- French units are better because they won more campaigns.
- Nothing can stop an elite unit like the Old Guard. Basically, they will fight until they take 95% figure loss in any given unit. They also can't be stopped by firepower…cuz that never happened…!
- may as well throw in the fact that about 30-50% of the the French army in any given battle was in the Imperial Guard.
- Charges require a totally different phase, special rules, and multiple sub-phases to resolve, because they're so complex and nifty and resemble no other movement in a game or real life, cuz, after all, they are *sprinting* to build up momentum over a couple hundred yards.
- Also, need to remember that at any given moment, about 50% of a French army is in skirmish order, advancing like Roger's Rangers through forbidding terrain. That's just a start, really. I'm sure there are many I just can't remember at the moment! |
bobspruster  | 08 Jan 2026 7:20 a.m. PST |
Are you saying none of what you said is true!? 😆 |
| Stalkey and Co | 08 Jan 2026 8:13 a.m. PST |
It's ALL TRUE! I read it in my 137 page color picture filled rule book. And there was an actual picture of lovely painted figures with a Guard Cuirassier Regt. breaking a square! Apparently they rolled very well on the dice… |
| jwebster | 08 Jan 2026 8:27 a.m. PST |
French routinely charge enemy lines in column, and "won" the melee Well that one is ingrained in my soul, but I don't mind being wrong So what was the most common form of engagement that created a decisive tactical outcome? John |
| DeRuyter | 08 Jan 2026 10:05 a.m. PST |
Is there a specific set of rules you are referring to, ie; your 137 page color rule book? Given your focus on the French did you ever play Empire? Not all of these are fiction but were rare or not the norm or varied depending on the year or campaign. The question is how does the game system handle this? Do the rules allow players to make ahistorical movements but punish them in other ways or just ban them. The French can only field the OG if Napoleon is present, etc. Playing a historical scenario usually takes care of everyone fielding elite troops. Some examples: Cavalry could break a square and did on very rare occasions. So how do the rules handle that? Need a 12 on two dice etc – Is the square disordered militia? Odds could get better.
Cavalry charging an anchored line is the same. Has the infantry line been subject to a bombardment and taken casualties, what is their morale state? One of the reasons rules have separate charge phases is because of your other points – too many melees, most casualties from melee etc. With a charge phase you take of that and often the column charging the line. Do the attackers even close after defensive fire or does the target fall back or rout as a result of the charge. Some of your bullets on the French are indeed wargame tropes. The bunching up of columns to charge a single battalion in line is particularly vexing. I have seen this in some old games, but I think many modern rule sets have evolved. Do the rules you are using allow for changes in doctrine and training in different periods of the Napoleonic wars? At times the French were better trained, at times their opponents were and at times they did charge in column routinely and other times the doctrine was to deploy into line or both. I can think of a number of games that handle your fictions well; General d'Army II, LaSalle or Blucher for a brigade scale game. |
| 14Bore | 08 Jan 2026 12:13 p.m. PST |
Historically a few times squares were broken. Very possibly many companys never actually got all set causing a catastrophe.
(actually that is what happens more often in Empire 3. My Decembrest Revolt game the top Cuirassiers Horse Guard had no shot breaking the Moscow Guard in square.)
Empire counts a unit that is anchor om flanks as a square.
My French opponents only ever happens at a convention so isn't something that often happens.
Empire its die tolls, if your rolling in a 1-100% there is a chance.
Again my last game the Preobrezenzski battalion ran with 2 figures casualties. It would go on their permanent record if it wasn't in the history of the Napoleonic wars.
Most rules I get to see cavalry has to pass a couple rolls before contact is made.
Again only see French skirmishers at conventions. Mostly bothers me if your going to put 1=20 and blowing off skirmish figures seems not following history.
Granted skirmishers don't get killed off much even Historically. |
| Stalkey and Co | 08 Jan 2026 2:24 p.m. PST |
Historically, Cavalry couldn't break a square – not the way that the term "break" implies. No, I won't quote you 10 sources, go look them up yourself, it's pretty enjoyable, IMHO. Nosworthy and Muir, toss in some Duffy along the way. Cavalry could certainly rout a unit of infantry that was in a state of panic and disorder *trying* to form a square, but that is *not* "breaking" a square. I believe the number of formed squares that lost to a cavalry charge in the entirety of the napoleonic wars is just a handful, statistically irrelevant, and all happened under unusual circumstances. And you actually don't need to be in square at all – IF you have secure flanks, the cavalry is, in fact, charging the front of solid infantry anyway, so will lose, getting blasted by musket fire as the horses refuse to close and trip over piles of Alpo. Obviously, you can make lots of *qualifications* to this, but does one's Naps rules fight the 99% or does it have British horse guns charging French infantry? Are we playing the period or are we playing the exceptions for cheap entertainment value? If the latter, that's fine, and I'll enjoy a battle of Limeys and Slimeys or any number of other beer'n pretzel rules. Toss in Robin Hood or any number of other games, or perhaps "Slaughterloo"! Orcs in shakoes, anyone? hilarious. Just not historical. Interestingly, remove the magic elements, and Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game is actually an excellent set of Dark Ages skirmish rules. |
| evilgong | 08 Jan 2026 3:52 p.m. PST |
Of course cavalry could break squares – somebody do the count, about 25-30 were defeated. (I'm sure I have seen some tallies, but no, I can't remember where.) Why else would more or less sane leaders attempt it if it was 'impossible' – yes it should be out on the statistical fringe, but possible none the less. And while many of the successes would be against 'unsteady' or 'ill-formed' squares, it was often the charge or threats of them that made the square unsteady. |
| nsolomon99 | 08 Jan 2026 4:28 p.m. PST |
Don't know what rules you've been playing, certainly not the sets I've been using for so many years. With respect to rules there have always been some cheaper, shorter, "streamlined for fast play" sets on the market and these often include many of the elements you raise but there has also always been quality sets, well thought through and designed, thoroughly play – tested, probably more expensive to buy, but available and in use. With your list of things you don't like I would suggest that you avoid Black Powder, LaSalle and Valour & Fortitude for example. These rules are designed to give one a fun, quick game pushing model soldiers around and rolling dice and there is a place for them in the market. I would recommend to you quality sets such as Valmy to Waterloo, March Attack, General d'Armee 1 or 2, La Feu Sacre 1 or 2 and Empire II, III and V for example. This list intentionally includes a range of complexity and size/scale. All of them will give you a good game, largely free of the period misunderstandings you refer to above. |
| Erzherzog Johann | 08 Jan 2026 4:46 p.m. PST |
I seem to remember Bruce Quarrie banning cavalry from charging a formed square. You could try to 'shake' it (I think that was the term) and then, well, best of luck to you. I don't think of charges being "a totally different phase, special rules, and multiple sub-phases to resolve, because they're so complex and nifty and resemble no other movement in a game or real life" but rather a means of handling them in what can be a complex move sequence. Sometimes it's necessary to do them separately to prevent gamey outcomes. Funnily enough though, in Ancients, when WRG went from WRG to DBx, it completely eliminated any distinction between charge moves and other moves (everything was just PIP allocation with the exception of 'spontaneous advance, which did have its own rules). That worked well enough to dominate the scene for ages, and it's still significant in its DBA, DBMM and rival ADLG forms. I presume HFG uses a similar system for Horse and Musket games. Cheers,
John |
| TimePortal | 08 Jan 2026 7:03 p.m. PST |
The old Wargamers Digest had an article reviewing the Breaking of Squares. Later the Courier also had articles on the subject.
When we researching for our rules in 1978.
Units savaged to the point of destruction was classified as broke. This happened to several Allied battalions at Waterloo. Not the best quality of troops but still a square.
As an aside a full veteran battalion was destroyed in the First Carlist War. The unusual situation was that the Cavalry were lancers and it had rained the entire day. Infantry could not fire and the lancers kept stabbing |
| TimePortal | 08 Jan 2026 7:11 p.m. PST |
Not sure what troop ratio that you are playing. That makes a lot of difference.
If you are not happy with special traits then you need to design your own rules. That is what we did in 1977, when research did not support a designers special advantages to the French. He had a French army and later when he bought an Austrian army, he released a new Austria special list for the Archduke Charles Legion. Lol |
 John the OFM  | 08 Jan 2026 8:10 p.m. PST |
+2 for being French. Can't get a more obnoxious meme for a set of rules than that.
Oh, but Empire tries to moderate it with "+1 for being British". Empire (name and shame!) also has 12 different morale or quality classes. Boooo! |
| John the OFM | 09 Jan 2026 6:42 a.m. PST |
Rudy has it dead on when he equates the rules as written with the armies owned by the designer.
Classic example is WRG army lists, and particularly the Warrior lists for the successor to WRG 7th edition. One of the editors owns an Inca army, so they get halberds and staff slings. One wonders why some of these armies never conquered the known world. And yet, the Roman armies, which actually did, suffer from severe disadvantages, like inferior cavalry. |
| Bill N | 09 Jan 2026 9:44 a.m. PST |
Sorry but cannot support you on this. Some of those things happened in the Nap era. They may have been the exception rather than the rule, and there may have been extenuating circumstances, but they did happen. I'd be willing to consider rules that reflected what happened in most cases while ignoring the exceptions, but that is a different discussion. Another issue your points raise is that our rules are limited by the fact we are not playing in real time. A turn can reflect 5 minutes, 15 or an hour. Know what all can transpire in the real time equivalent of one move. So for example melee casualties may not simply be a reflection of what happens when the attacker and defender cross bayonets. They can include casualties from what happens before and after that moment. |
| John the OFM | 09 Jan 2026 10:06 a.m. PST |
In Tunisia a Free French tank with a 37mm gun took out a Tiger tank by wedging its shell in the turret ring. The Tiger withdrew, or was abandoned. I don't remember which.
How many WWII rules do we have that allow for that? How many tables and D100 die rolls to accomplish that? |
| DeRuyter | 09 Jan 2026 10:22 a.m. PST |
Bill N – Good point on the time aspect. Nsolomon99 – Valmy to Waterloo used to be a go to set of rules when I had time and space to leave a game set up over multiple sessions! However, the OP does not like a separate charge phase and VtW has that and more! I am not sure what the OP is after – a beer and pretzels, fast play game or more of a simulation? He mentions a glossy 137 page book but not the name of the rules that have some of these annoying features. Can you enlighten us? |
| Erzherzog Johann | 09 Jan 2026 11:07 a.m. PST |
I took "It's ALL TRUE! I read it in my 137 page color picture filled rule book" to be a wry "it's in the rules so it must be true" statement, given the topic. A hypothetical rule book. I could be wrong. Cheers,
John |
| DevoutDavout | 09 Jan 2026 3:18 p.m. PST |
+1 Nsolomon. Great short list of excellent rules. V2W being my personal #1. |
| Erzherzog Johann | 09 Jan 2026 6:37 p.m. PST |
"- 90% of casualties come from the clash of bayonets in melees that happened constantly in every battle.'" I think this requires a very literal interpretation of game play. Casualties in the melee phase of a game are likely to be a combination of close range musket fire, a few "clash[es] of bayonet", and a bunch of guys quietly slipping away, "escorting casualties to the rear", deciding to regroup (a long way) further back, or simply bolting. That they take place in the melee phase of a game doesn't mean they're all bayonet casualties. Perhaps better thought of as close quarters combat rather than focussing on the bayonet itself. Cheers,
John |
 deadhead | 10 Jan 2026 3:06 a.m. PST |
"Most annoying"? Well, maybe the most unrealistic anyway. The God-like view, from on high, granted to players, over the entire battlefield. This despite dense smoke, folds in the ground, confusing uniforms at any distance and one handed use of the telescope, whilst sitting on a jittery critter. (as in so many 1/72 scale figures). |
| Mark J Wilson | 10 Jan 2026 6:39 a.m. PST |
@ Stalkey In general with you all the way, but there were times when large numbers of French battalions, particular from Legere regiments, did deploy in skirmish order. |
| Mark J Wilson | 10 Jan 2026 6:52 a.m. PST |
@ Jwebster "So what was the most common form of engagement that created a decisive tactical outcome?". The British, and most people think they are relevant to Napoleonic warfare not an irrelevant sideshow; relied on hiding the main unit behind a crest, using skirmishers including rifles to keep enemy skirmishers away and when a column came over the crest firing once and charging, thus giving them surprise, and shock. The French, I'd suggest, used a mixture of concentrated artillery and skirmishers to degrade/fatigue the enemy before introducing the column as a fresh reserve to administer the coup de grace. With time other nations copied them which is why battles become increasingly dependant on numbers, he who has the last reserve [who might just be the Young Guard] wins. [This is one of the eternal military realities] On the cavalry front depth helps. If I have three lines of squadrons and you have two then when my first line has passed though you and turns to hack it's way back it hits your second line in the rear as they are about to contact my second line coming forward. Your first line is till facing my third line so can't turn to match this. |
| Ruchel | 10 Jan 2026 10:38 a.m. PST |
relied on hiding the main unit behind a crest, using skirmishers including rifles to keep enemy skirmishers away and when a column came over the crest firing once and charging, thus giving them surprise, and shock. What if there were no crests in the field? The French, I'd suggest, used a mixture of concentrated artillery and skirmishers to degrade/fatigue the enemy before introducing the column as a fresh reserve to administer the coup de grace Well, It depends on the circumstances. The French often deployed from columns to lines to engage the enemy. Cavalry can win a straight charge into the front of an infantry line with secure flanks… cuz you know, it's "thin" at only 3 deep instead of FOUR deep like a square. French routinely charge enemy lines in column, and "won" the melee. French or anyone at all often deployed with several columns right next to each other. This enabled them to create "mass" that would CRUSH an infantry line Those are particularly annoying. |
| 14Bore | 10 Jan 2026 1:33 p.m. PST |
deadhead- long thought a game played only at eye height would be fun. Not sure how you move the figures. |
 Dal Gavan | 10 Jan 2026 1:38 p.m. PST |
"National characteristics" and restrictive rules for some armies. For example there was post-1806 Prussians "not able to form line as they only fought in column", "Prussians in line -2 to morale", "Austrian/Russian/Prussian/etc battalions cannot deploy skirmishers", or "-1 to all non-British units in line when within n inches of a French column". It wasn't until authors like George Nafziger, Oli Schmidt and Boris Megorski started translating foreign unit organisations, training instructions and battle histories that some of those myths disappeared from some rules. And there's still some who won't accept those authors, preferring to keep the French and British as the only capable armies of the period- with "realistic results" being constant French victories, unless the other side is British. It makes you wonder how Napoleon ended up in Elba and St Helena. Disclaimer- I dumped the period about 10 years ago and gave away my figures, so I'm not familiar with the more modern rules- released from about 2005 and later- and whether those things have been addressed. |
| Trajanus | 10 Jan 2026 2:49 p.m. PST |
Valmy to Waterloo used to be a go to set of rules when I had time and space to leave a game set up over multiple sessions! Not restricted to Valmy to Waterloo – Many a rule set can have that criteria applied to it. Simple, or faster, rules have long existed in the environment where complicated or "more realistic" ones are physically outside the purview of participants. Fact of Life. |
