"German snipers - not all are the same" Topic

I've been working on my infantry rules, in particular how German Infantry Squads worked and how their tactics differed from the Allies. I've seen German snipers in camo/ghillie suits and snipers without and wondered why? Evidently, there are dedicated traditional snipers with specialized training and "snipers" who are part of the squad without the specialized training.

Here is some of what I've found:

The primary difference was in training, mission, and equipment: the dedicated sniper was a highly specialized, independently operating expert for high-value, long-range targets, while the squad marksman (often referred to as a "sniper" but performing a different role) was a regular infantryman with basic extra training to extend the squad's effective range.

Dedicated German Sniper
Training: Dedicated snipers underwent comprehensive, specialist training in fieldcraft, camouflage, stalking, concealed movement, and range estimation. A famous German sniper maxim was "Survival is ten times camouflage and one time firing".

Mission: Their role was strategic and focused on intelligence gathering (scouting) and eliminating high-value targets like officers, radio operators, forward observers, and machine-gun crews, often operating alone or in two-man teams (sniper and spotter) deep within enemy territory. They were employed as planned assets at the company or battalion level.

Equipment: They used specialized, purpose-built or highly accurized rifles with high-powered, magnified optics, such as the Karabiner 98k with a high-magnification scope, designed for precision at ranges up to and beyond 600 meters.

Doctrine: Their operations were often independent, relying heavily on evasion and concealment to execute their missions, sometimes allowing the front line to pass them by so they could attack from the rear.

German Infantry Squad Marksman
Training: These men were regular, expert-level riflemen who received additional, but basic, marksmanship training. They were not specialists in deep fieldcraft.

Mission: The squad marksman's role was tactical, an integral part of the infantry squad, providing accurate support fire to the unit. Their targets were generally within the range of the infantry squad, engaging visible or barely exposed targets as part of the general firefight, effectively extending the squad's normal engagement range.

Equipment: They used standard-issue service rifles (like the Kar98k or later the Gewehr 43 semi-automatic rifle) fitted with a low-magnification optic (e.g., a 1.5x or 4x scope), which was a standard accessory to an otherwise normal service weapon.

Doctrine: They moved and fought with their squad, essentially acting as a standard soldier with an enhanced ability to make precise shots at slightly longer ranges than their comrades.

In essence, the dedicated sniper was a specialist "hunter" or "scout" with a specific skillset and mission profile that diverged significantly from standard infantry tasks, whereas the squad marksman was simply an expert shot utilizing a scoped rifle within their standard infantry role.

If you see a picture of a German with a scope mounted Mauser with no camo he's most likely a squad member. If camo he's a specialist.

Now how do I implement the "scout" into the rules for the squad? Since he's a spotter, I'd say that enhances the squad Situational Awareness, effective spotting range, and by directing the MG team increases their MG firepower.

I think within 300m there is not going to be much of a difference between the effectiveness of a scope or iron sight Mauser. At shot ranges, say 50m or less it could be a hindrance. At ranges over 300m it would be an accuracy bonus.

Anyone else working on something along these lines?

Wolfhag

Well, as you note, what would be called a designated marksmen is not a sniper, nor do they have sniper scopes. They have standard rifles with low level optics. The scoped Mausers were company level assets, and they were issued when they were available and in situations in which they might prove useful. They were not a standard part of any platoon or squad TO&E for the Germans. Numbers were decent in 1943, and became increasingly rare by 44/45.

The designated marksman is not a scout, nor does it mean that he has more situational awareness than anyone else. If presented with the right circumstances, the squad or platoon leader would take advantage of any extra optics they had available. If by 'scout' you mean a true sniper, they are not going to be embedded with an infantry squad.

Optics will certainly improve marksmanship in the 100 to 300 meter range, and a soldier with optics will take a shot that a soldier using iron sites wouldn't take. Optics should come into account at 100 meters. You could even argue closer than that.

The squad leader is in charge of the lmg. It would be a waste of an asset to expect the designated marksman to supervise the lmg team.

Snipers will be off doing their thing, and dedicated marksmen may be few and far between. They should really be a scenario based asset with a purpose in mind.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but I do think you are barking up the wrong tree.

Although the "designated marksman" as a TOE role did not yet exist in my time as an infantryman and I've only got second hand information on their role, I'd agree with 79th and say you really should not give any "bonus" for a squad level DM, UNLESS, you are playing a one to one skirmish where that skill would stand out.

A DM is just a soldier with a more accurate weapon (maybe) compared to his immediate peers, and his tactical use is really more of Feldwebel Schmidt saying "Gunter, you're a better shot than the rest of us, and you have a scope, say, how about you take a shot at that guy in the tower?" Otherwise he is just a rifleman. At a platoon level plus game, that won't stand out, but in a one to one skirmish, you might give some sort of range or sighting bonus to that individual.

The DM in the US Army only exists for the last 15 or so years because of the limitations of the currently issued M4 carbine and its use in the extended engagement ranges as found in relatively treeless Afghanistan and Iraq. I suspect as the new 6.5mm rifle is issued in greater numbers, that role will likely disappear.

And double agree with 79th about the German squad leader's role: he commanded the LMG's fires in most cases; it was a junior leader who led the rifle portion of the squad in assaults (and most scholarship has stuck with the idea that "fire team" maneuver was very, very rare).

DM makes me think of Shifty Powers in Band of Brothers.
No special equipment, same rifle as anybody else;
just a much better shot than others.

Did Germany have a hunting tradition at this time?
I have one of my squad memebrs in my Winter War skirimish campaign as an extra good shot. But then again, the Finns did have a hunting tradition at that time.

Germany, or rather the various hundreds of states and cities that eventually made up Germany, has had a strong hunting tradition for centuries. The famed and feared German jagers that fought in the American Revolution for Great Britain were well documented as primarily being made up from professional hunters (those on the payrolls of the cities/states they were from).

When I was stationed in Germany a few decades ago, that tradition still existed, but was (and I suspect even more now) heavily regulated, so only the most dedicated (those with both the time and more importantly, the money to spend on mandatory club membership and government training and licensing) could participate.

Generally, hunting in Germany was/is a sport for the privileged few or those who came from families with a long tradition of hunting service.

The German Army (which really has only existed since the 1870s) also has a tradition of quality marksmanship training. US soldiers stationed in Germany for the last 80 years were always eager to participate in and hope to earn the right to wear the Bundeswehr Shooting Badge on their Class A uniform. It was a physically large award that always stood out when worn.

Again, I'd only designate a WWII German squad with a DM in a one-to-one skirmish game. Let Gunter have the "+1" to shoot or some such.

To be fair, many countries had marksmen in their regular infantry, as well as properly trained snipers.

advocate,
I think what we're getting into – again – is defining a term that can have many different definitions and uses.

Yes. Anyone who is a very good shot can be called a marksman. You could call all Marines marksmen, but it's probably not a good idea because the lowest rifle qualification the Marines have is Marksman.

I think calling someone a marksman is a comparative term that implies they're better than most shooters, so every unit has at least one marksman.

But the Marines (and other militaries) now have a designation (not a separate MOS) called Designated Marksman. He is still a 0311 but with some additional training and a weapon upgrade. When you have a target beyond effective M4 range, he is the "designated" guy to take the shot. Sounds like the German rifleman with a ZF41 scope.

In essence, the DM brings sniper-like precision to the squad level, increasing its combat effectiveness at extended engagement distances out to 800 yards with the standard rifle range of 400-500 yards. That appears to be the same idea for the German DM/sniper or whatever you want to call them. Some reports state the ZF41 extends the Mauser's effective range by 100m.

In the Mideast, a Marine unit was being investigated for execution war crimes as a high number of enemy casualties were head shots. It turned out they were engaged by DMs at ranges up to 600 yards. I've seen civilian accurized AR-15s hold a consistent 6-inch group at 600 yards with iron sights.

DM is normally a formal title. However, the SL or LT could informally designate a proven marksman to take the long-range shots or "act" as a sniper. Maybe like Shifty.

Could a DM act as a sniper? Yes, anyone can, as sniping is an activity. However, without teamwork, specialized training in range estimation, camouflage, and stealth, you won't last long, and your effectiveness won't extend beyond 400m.

I see the big difference is that the DM stays attached to his squad and has the same MOS. Trained and specialized Snipers with a different MOS are normally at a higher level of command and may act on their own or be attached to a unit.

When my son was on a rooftop in Yemen, they spotted a bad guy moving who was very far off and called for a DM. He was going to leave their LOS before the DM got there, so my son, a Comm/Sig Int guy with no Marine specialized marksmanship training, set up the shot.

He estimated the range in his ACOG sight at 700-750 yards, estimated the lead for a walking 90-degree deflection, and took the shot. The guy dropped on the first shot.

Lucy shot? Yes. However, he was on the US Juniors AR-15 national championship team, and we used to shoot my M1 Garand at 600 yards, taking turns as shooter and spotter, just like a sniper team.

His training as a civilian was better than what he got in Boot Camp. I guess you could say he "sniped," but he's not a sniper. He had experience in range estimation, which is the biggest factor in first-shot accuracy.

If he were a 0311 they may have made him a DM.

Every job title and MOS has a specific job and responsibility, but that does not mean someone else can't do it or try. However, their chances of success may be low.

How or if you want to use or designate it in a game is up to you. Does that make sense?

Wolfhag

FYI: For some reason I posted this on Bolt Action and not WWII Discussions. Sorry about that.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but I do think you are barking up the wrong tree

No problem. Barking in regards to the difference between a trained sniper and a DM or how I want to use it in a game?

I'm fairly familiar with what the German Squad Leader duties are (I have the manual) and agree with what you said. Again, like I said, I'm looking at what the player could do to use the sniper/DM (or whatever you want to call him) and other leader or assets in different capacities.

I think I showed the difference between a dedicated trained specialist and a guy who is a good shot handed a scoped rifle as part of the squad. No matter what they are called they are different with different missions.

Snipers (Scharfschützen): These were highly trained specialists who often operated independently or in two-man teams (shooter and spotter). Their mission focused on ISTAR (Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition, and Reconnaissance), high-value target elimination (officers, radio operators), and long-range harassment of enemy organizations. They were trained in advanced fieldcraft, camouflage, and evasion. Independent, high-power adjustable 4x scope, long-range 600-800m, intelligence gathering, specialized training. Highly trained snipers with a better scope and ammo were normally at the Battalion level and assigned to sub units as needed.

Designated Marksmen (Zielfernrohr-Schützen): This is an older pre-war designation, nothing new. These were organic members of an infantry squad or platoon who were simply better shots than their peers. Just being better than everyone else does not necessarily make you an above average shooter if everyone else is poor. They moved with their unit into the "thick of combat" to provide accurate support fire. Their role was to bridge the range gap (300–600 meters) between standard riflemen and dedicated snipers. Integrated with squad, limited scope 1.5x (ZF-41), supports squad, Kar98k/G43. Effective to 400m. The Kar98 effective is 300m.

Some German accounts state the platoon would be given a rifle with a ZF41 attached and the platoon leader would just hand it to the guy who had a reputation as being the best shot, but even the best shot in a squad could be poor.

In essence, the squad's "sniper" was a highly skilled rifleman with a scope for close-to-medium range support, while dedicated snipers were elite specialists for long-range precision and intelligence. Feel free to call him whatever you like.

Having been a competitive shooter as a civilian and gone through some recon/scout sniper training I got interested in the ZF41. Here is some of what I've found:

Sight explanation: youtu.be/sBstpqUAniw
A1.5x scope allows you to see at 400 yards what the unaided eye sees at 267 yards. For a scope you normally want 1x magnification for every 100 yards. Low power allows a wider field of view but the ZF-41 had a FOV of 10 degrees, The 4x scope a FOV of 25 degrees. The ZF-41 did not perform well in poor lighting conditions because the objective lens was so small. The post obscures the target at longer ranges.
It was removable and often lost its zero.

It appears to me to be like an iron sight arrangement that cannot be adjusted so you need to practice to get the hold offs correct which could change every time you removed it. Some sources state the ZF41 increases the effective range by 100m. The sight was pre-set at the factory to 300m and the shooter was not supposed to adjust it and probably could not if he tried, it's very difficult. Unfortunately, when graduating sniper school many new German snipers were issued the ZF41 scope because there was a short supply of the 4x turret scopes and they hated it.

For these reasons, the system was considered problematic in the field regarding zero retention after removal, contributing to its reputation as "Germany's worst sniper scope" by some contemporary historians and users. Modern, high-quality scope mounts are designed to provide highly repeatable zero, a standard that was difficult to achieve with the wartime production constraints and design of the ZF41. After getting more info on the ZF41 while it was not well liked I think it was probably the best cost effective solution to get an optical sight to every squad without needing to send someone through specialized training.

They were not a standard part of any platoon or squad TO&E for the Germans. Numbers were decent in 1943, and became increasingly rare by 44/45.

I think the video will explain that. Evidently, the German were not prepared for an intense sniper war when they met the Russians even though they did in WWI. The info I came across is that in a fast moving maneuver warfare snipers will not play a vital part. Evidently they were wrong.

Optics should come into account at 100 meters.

Yes, they always will. I was talking about the accuracy increase below 300m is negligible IF you have a defined target to shoot at. That's my experience using a scope and iron sights too. Snipers like Simo Hyatt normally used iron sights but his engagement ranges were fairly short in Finland. Also, IIRC, he said "the Russians like to fight standing up" which I'm sure made them an easier target.

I watched a video of a guy firing a K98 with the ZF41 and hand reloads out to 500 yards and it looked like about a 4.5 MOA accuracy which is about average. He said the scope only gave a slight increase in accuracy over the iron sights. He was shooting in ideal conditions.

I'm thinking that overall it probably would not make much of a difference in a game.

Wolfhag