"Deep Dive into the Bren Gun vs BAR use in WWII and why" Topic

Did anybody mention yet the First Special Service Force? While the sources differ a bit, FSSF platoon (around 26 all ranks) was rather well armed with something like:

- 2 Johnson LMGs
- 2 M1919 LMGs (or BARs, depending on source)
- 60 mm mortar
- Bazooka
- Flamethrower

Never mind the individual weapons, rifle grenades, explosives, radios etc. Presumably all of the kit was not necessarily take to the field on every mission.

Griefbringer,
Typically the mortars, bazookas, flamethrowers, LMG, HMG, and heavy weapons were kept in the Company Weapons Platoon. These were attached or designated for use with infantry platoons and squads. It depended on the mission.

Most Marine Corps and Army heavy weapons teams were allotted a hand cart to carry weapons and ammo. This could make a big difference in some scenarios: link

They fell out of use after Korea.

Wolfhag

Jack,
Thanks for contributing. I think our service time is about 35 years apart but not a lot has changed. I'll defer to your knowledge.

Correct me if I'm wrong: The group level of F&M depends on the range to the objective and level of defensive fire. At longer ranges of over 300m you may F&M as a Platoons with the objective under mortar fire, probably 60mm but you may have 81s. As you get closer to the objective and/or defensive fire increases, you start to F&M in smaller groups down to the fire team level or maybe individuals crawling close enough to deliver grenades. It's a different and scary perspective at ground level. My recollection is practicing mainly as fire teams within a squad starting from 50-75 yards. Of course, I probably would not know what's going on elsewhere or on my flanks as I was concentrating on my tasks and could not see the big picture.

Realistically, the Squad Leader should not be contributing to the squad firepower as he is too busy supervising and observing except in extreme situations.

On the assault, you need to watch your ammo as you won't get a resupply until the assault is over. What amount of ammo a Rifleman carried on an assault would have varied. Two bandoleers of M1 clips weights less then 10 pounds and gives you 96 rounds.

Westerners are using basically the same tactics in Ukraine: 155mm Arty on objective until getting within 100-200m from the target. Then start the 82mm mortars and grenade launchers for suppression. Defenders know that as long as artillery is dropping on them they won't be close assaulted. When it stops you come out of your bunker ready to defend, if you are able to. But now that the artillery may have stopped you'll be greeted by kamikaze drones.

Depending how well you know the mortar guys and trust them, you may get to 25m of the trench before having the mortars add 50m and continue the bombardment behind the defenders while you do the final assault IF they have enough ammo which was a problem often.

The F&M is used differently. Once an assault is detected the Kill Chain for 82mm mortars is from 20 seconds to a few minutes. You need to move quickly to get into the trenches.

During the Battle of Bakhmut one Western group built their own jammers so the Russian defenders could not call for support. Normally 10-15 guys will assault an objective.

Everyone in the group is normally advancing and shooting, even if a target is not clearly identified as it does suppress the enemy and the more noise you make the more of a negative psychological impact you'll have on the defenders. The quicker you get to the trench line to better your chances. Don't stop.

If the bombardment is effective and timed enough, the defenders will just be coming out from their bunker as you get to the trench line. Now you've seized the initiative.

Trenches can be well built zigzag ones with shelters or just individual scattered fighting holes. At this range hopefully you have a drone to ID targets and direct the throwing of hand grenades. Grenades win trench fights.

Underground bunkers always get a grenade or a half-kilo of C4. Grenades rarely kill if you have body armor but just a few seconds of suppression allows the attacker to move to you from the other side of a trench. Also, you can try to avoid them to an extent.

From what some Westerners have told me, when assaulting a trench you may carry up to 15 loaded 5.56mm mags and at least 6 grenades. You'll normally see a somewhat rounded pouch like a cloth bucket they carry on their left side. This is to throw their empty mags into to reload later as some guys bring up ammo cans to reload. Normally someone carries and RPK or PKM.

On assaults, many guys don't carry mags on their front plate carrier because you stick up higher when seeking prone cover.

A good team with a coordinated rush has a good chance of getting to the enemy trench line where you are safe from indirect fire and a little safer from drones. Some teams will "attempt" to drive a vehicle right up to the trench line and drop guns off directly into the trench. Speed is life.

Assaults go wrong when coordination breaks down and the defensive fire forces guys to hit the deck, you can't do that because very quickly mortars will adjust on you. That's when the attackers start getting killed. The defenders rarely counterattack out of their trenches.

The big problem in Ukraine right now is a 3-6 mile wide no mans land that needs to be crossed as fast as possible. APCs attract a lot of attention. Dirt bikes can work well. Going on foot is the worst. Ukraine may have only a half dozen guys defending a 500m trench line. Fog is an infiltrators friend.

Previously you attacked from your tree line to theirs about 200-1000m across flat land. Those days seem to be over.

Wolfhag

Typically the mortars, bazookas, flamethrowers, LMG, HMG, and heavy weapons were kept in the Company Weapons Platoon.

Only in those companies that actually had a weapons platoon. In the WWII US Army, there were many companies that did not have them, and instead distributed support weapons directly to rifle platoons, including:

- Armored infantry company (though in 1943 they were organised to have a company anti-tank gun platoon)
- Parachute rifle company
- Ranger Company
- First Special Service Force company

Basic infantry battalion rifle company and glider rifle company had weapon platoons containing section each of 60 mm mortars and M1919 LMGs. Bazookas, however, were not weapon platoon assets, but were distributed throughout the company as decided by the commanding officer (this could result in some of them ending in a weapons platoon trailer).

Thanks Griefbringer,
If I didn't make it clear earlier, I've kept my discussion to the Marines as I'm not as familiar with the Army in WWII but it is interesting as a comparison.

Wolfhag

After thinking about it, maybe one other reason for the Marines not selecting a crew served machine gun for sustained fire was most of their previous combat experience.

From the WFI to WWI all of their combat had been raids, beach landings, and fighting in dense terrain like the jungles of Haiti, Central America, Philippines and Belleau Wood. Europe was in more open battles.

In 1938 the US did have 13,000 US manufactured French Chau machine guns in 30-06 caliber. Fortunately, they went with the BAR.

Wolfhag

Regarding WWII USMC rifle company, my understanding is that the bazookas were not part of the weapons platoon, but assigned around as deemed fit by the company commander. Considering that the Japanese armour was not too frequent encounter in the island fighting, they may have been mainly brought out for bunker busting.

Somewhere in the post-WWII period things changed, and a dedicated anti-tank squad was added to the USMC rifle company weapons platoon. At some point this squad was armed with six 3.5" bazookas.

Second Lieutenant Val Allen Browning, the son of the BAR's inventor John Moses Browning, personally carried and demonstrated the weapon in its first combat use while serving as an officer in the 79th Division.

The first recorded combat use of the M1918 BAR was on September 12 or 13, 1918, during the Meuse-Argonne Offensive in France.

Val Browning was present with the first shipment of BARs to France to train and instruct the troops on its use, due to a shortage of official instructors.

My grandfather was the Captain of a Machine Gun Company in the 79th Division who worked with Browning. The BAR he brought home from Europe now belongs to my cousin. My mom said he'd shoot it off in the backyard on July 4th.

Wolfhag

Regarding WWII USMC rifle company, my understanding is that the bazookas were not part of the weapons platoon, but assigned around as deemed fit by the company commander. Considering that the Japanese armour was not too frequent encounter in the island fighting, they may have been mainly brought out for bunker busting.

There were at least three TO&E reorgs for the Marines in WWII. Typically, a Rifle Company had three Rifle Platoons and one Weapons Platoon with the MG, mortars and rocket launchers. The Company Commander (1st LT, Captain or Major) normally assigned these to a Rifle Platoons as needed.

The 3.5" Super Bazooka came out at the end of the war. I'm not sure if it saw any action but it did in Korea and VN.

At the Battalion level was the Combat Engineer Company for EOD, mine removal, demolitions and flame throwers that were assigned to a Company and the Company Commander gave it to a platoon. However, at one point later in the war each squad had an attached flamethrower. Also, some squads had a Demo Corporal (Combat Engineer) attached.

TO&E are a starting point but after hitting the beach it can all go to hell very quickly. It was not unusual for a squad or LT to send someone to the rear to get a flamethrower or other weapons, make ammo runs, etc.

Desperation sometimes meant putting a .45 to the head of some rear echelon guy and forcing him to help you carry stuff forward to save your buddies.

Musicians handled recovering causalities and KIA.

On the first day at Tarawa the Chaplain's Assistant was killed acting as messenger for the Battalion Commander.

On Peleliu, Afro-Americans assigned to the Shore Party unloading equipment went forward to evacuate WIA and some stayed along side the Rifleman to fight.

On the third day on Tarawa, LT Bonneyman was leading the Shore Party but went forward and was instrumental in taking out the Jap Command bunker and posthumously awarded the MoH.

Rifleman made their own demolition equipment by taping a grenade to a mortar shell. If you can't get a flamethrower, pour a jerrycan of gas down a ventilation shaft and drop a thermite grenade.

With every Marine a Rifleman it gives players agency to create some interesting scenarios.

Wolfhag