| 14Bore | 23 Nov 2025 8:17 a.m. PST |
I bring this up often at conventions and in my own mind.
A unlimbered battery is a different target with other artillery or infantry in black powder eras. They are spread out, individual soldiers have a lot of space between and a gun looking at it from down range it's very small.
So far most every rule agrees its a different target.
But while limbered, as a target its a bit more bunched together. A gun is tied to a limber, a number of horses and if hit is a mess to get straightened out. But how hard if maybe a bit easier? Or the thought I come up with getting a dead horse, or a few all linked together have to be cut out of their harnesses and if too many reconnected with new horses.
Have yet to see a rule set that differently makes a limber and unlimbered as two different end results. |
 John the OFM  | 23 Nov 2025 8:28 a.m. PST |
Well, I have yet to see a rules set that doesn't differentiate.
Usually a limbered artillery piece is dead meat when fired at. Unlimbered artillery is usually considered to be as difficult to hit as skirmishers. Casualties are usually taken from the gunners, which reduces the fire of the gun.
I've seen a set of rules that uses D100 for results (2 D10) that can actually destroy the gun. We play a variety of SYW and AWI rules, and limbered artillery invariably has "Just shoot me!" as a priority.
As it should. |
| Martin Rapier | 23 Nov 2025 9:30 a.m. PST |
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| BillyNM | 23 Nov 2025 9:36 a.m. PST |
John +1 but … the vulnerability of limbered artillery may be overplayed unless it's stationary – but why would it be stationary in view of enemy artillery? |
| 14Bore | 23 Nov 2025 10:02 a.m. PST |
One thought I have is if hit might stagger its movement (assuming it's traveling not sitting waiting).
I of course have no idea how long it would take to cut out a dead horse and fixing harness on the fly |
| 79thPA | 23 Nov 2025 1:07 p.m. PST |
It depends how granular you want to get. Some rules have you check each hit to see if you destroyed, horses, caissons, guns, etc, while other rules simply count limbered artillery as a target in column. There are a number of ways to address the issue. |
 miniMo | 23 Nov 2025 3:00 p.m. PST |
Deployed artillery has most of the caissons withdrawn enough to the rear to keep them out of the receiving fire zone. Limbered artillery is travelling with the caissons in the column and so the whole unit makes a much more kaboomy target. |
| TimePortal | 23 Nov 2025 3:47 p.m. PST |
In 1979 we did a set of Operational level Napoleonic rules. At that level we treated lumbered and unlimited as two different targets. The deployed guns had varying spaces between each gun . So a deployed French Russian and British battery used the same amount of frontage.
An unlimbered battery support, ammo wagon, caissons, occupied many yards to the rear of the guns. An obstacle to movement that is not addressed by modern rules. A hit on these and a limbered battery would reduce either movement rated, available shot or both.
Since a lumbered battery was considered moving, it was regarded as a harder, negative modification to hit. |
| Stoppage | 23 Nov 2025 4:08 p.m. PST |
If you wanted to really get into it you'd need to consider:
- Limbered guns waiting to move. Chaos if hit by artillery. Disorder, possible massive destruction of material.
- Limbered guns moving onto position. Chaos if hit by artillery. Disordered, possible rout back to safety. Possible separation of guns and ammunition caissons
- Guns deploying. Chaos if hit by artillery. Disordered.
- Guns deployed. Expected as normal behaviour. Chaos for any limbers, foot or horse behind gunline. I believe the Russians had problems attempting to deploy into a gunline at Borodino – half-batteries were wrecked whilst getting into position. The answer might be to hold waiting batteries in a covered location, and only attempt moving onto position outside effective enemy artillery fire. Foot artillery will need to accept casualties whilst deploying, horse artillery might be able to move quick enough to avoid getting caught. Supporting infantry/cavalry always have the problem of how to support deployed artillery – if directly behind they will get mullered by counter-battery fire, if off to one side, or in cover – they'll be too far away to bring their arms to bear and defend the battery. |
| John the OFM | 23 Nov 2025 4:34 p.m. PST |
No…
I don't really think I need to get into it. 😄 |
| Stoppage | 23 Nov 2025 4:46 p.m. PST |
Spoilsport. |
| Grelber | 23 Nov 2025 4:59 p.m. PST |
I think 79th PA made a good point with his comment on granularity.
If horses are killed, do you cut the harnesses and bring in new horses, or use the surviving horses to get the gun out of the way as quickly as possible?
Can you get around the damaged limber, or is the road blocked?
I only recall hearing of one caisson being hit. It was a massive, dramatic explosion, and caught everybody's attention. I don't recall hearing how many horses were killed. Grelber |
| John the OFM | 23 Nov 2025 5:55 p.m. PST |
I prefer…
"Oh no! My limbered artillery took 4 hits! I must roll for morale! I rolled a 2??? Oh well. Remove them." I'm playing a game. I'm not running a detailed "simulation".
Good for you if you want to go into how well the horses are fed. 👍 |
| rustymusket | 23 Nov 2025 6:45 p.m. PST |
Now just let them have their fun. |
| TimePortal | 23 Nov 2025 9:37 p.m. PST |
Fun game or a serious simulation was an intense question during that he 1970-80s.
The subtitle of our rules was'A Simulation Study of Napoleonic Warfare |
| Martin Rapier | 23 Nov 2025 11:12 p.m. PST |
If limbered artillery was so vulnerable, it does make you wonder how real armies actually managed to move their artillery around the battlefield. |
| John the OFM | 23 Nov 2025 11:40 p.m. PST |
Very carefully?
And behind the front line. |
| Martin Rapier | 24 Nov 2025 3:49 a.m. PST |
Maybe. It is just that in real battles the artillery seems to get moved around in conformance with the various formations, apart from redoubts and Grand Batteries. It doesnt overly bother me. Wargamers are generally loath to move guns as it means they aren't firing! |
| 14Bore | 24 Nov 2025 5:28 a.m. PST |
Besides still playing Empire 3, do play a lot of Carnage & Glory which seems to be detailed in the computer anyway just haven't ran across rules that differentiate the two artillery formation.
Also am one to avoid counter battery fire until last option. |
| Dave Crowell | 25 Nov 2025 12:55 p.m. PST |
I think it really is a question of scale and granularity. At a large scale the relevant factors may be "limbered artillery moves" and "limbered artillery doesn't shoot," for unlimbered, deployed artillery these are reversed. Limbered or unlimbered artillery can be treated as other units for the effects of battle. At very small scales the fates of individual gunners, drovers, horses, etc may be modeled. A lot of rules seem to simply subsume the artillery train into the base area occupied by the model guns and crews. To me the real question is "what makes a satisfying game model for you?" My answer to this question can, and does, vary from game to game. |
