"Limbered artillery as a target" Topic

I bring this up often at conventions and in my own mind.
A unlimbered battery is a different target with other artillery or infantry in black powder eras. They are spread out, individual soldiers have a lot of space between and a gun looking at it from down range it's very small.
So far most every rule agrees its a different target.
But while limbered, as a target its a bit more bunched together. A gun is tied to a limber, a number of horses and if hit is a mess to get straightened out. But how hard if maybe a bit easier? Or the thought I come up with getting a dead horse, or a few all linked together have to be cut out of their harnesses and if too many reconnected with new horses.
Have yet to see a rule set that differently makes a limber and unlimbered as two different end results.

Well, I have yet to see a rules set that doesn't differentiate.
Usually a limbered artillery piece is dead meat when fired at. Unlimbered artillery is usually considered to be as difficult to hit as skirmishers. Casualties are usually taken from the gunners, which reduces the fire of the gun.
I've seen a set of rules that uses D100 for results (2 D10) that can actually destroy the gun.

We play a variety of SYW and AWI rules, and limbered artillery invariably has "Just shoot me!" as a priority.
As it should.

John +1.

John +1 but … the vulnerability of limbered artillery may be overplayed unless it's stationary – but why would it be stationary in view of enemy artillery?

One thought I have is if hit might stagger its movement (assuming it's traveling not sitting waiting).
I of course have no idea how long it would take to cut out a dead horse and fixing harness on the fly

It depends how granular you want to get. Some rules have you check each hit to see if you destroyed, horses, caissons, guns, etc, while other rules simply count limbered artillery as a target in column. There are a number of ways to address the issue.

Deployed artillery has most of the caissons withdrawn enough to the rear to keep them out of the receiving fire zone. Limbered artillery is travelling with the caissons in the column and so the whole unit makes a much more kaboomy target.

In 1979 we did a set of Operational level Napoleonic rules. At that level we treated lumbered and unlimited as two different targets. The deployed guns had varying spaces between each gun . So a deployed French Russian and British battery used the same amount of frontage.
An unlimbered battery support, ammo wagon, caissons, occupied many yards to the rear of the guns. An obstacle to movement that is not addressed by modern rules. A hit on these and a limbered battery would reduce either movement rated, available shot or both.
Since a lumbered battery was considered moving, it was regarded as a harder, negative modification to hit.

If you wanted to really get into it you'd need to consider:

- Limbered guns waiting to move. Chaos if hit by artillery. Disorder, possible massive destruction of material.
- Limbered guns moving onto position. Chaos if hit by artillery. Disordered, possible rout back to safety. Possible separation of guns and ammunition caissons
- Guns deploying. Chaos if hit by artillery. Disordered.
- Guns deployed. Expected as normal behaviour. Chaos for any limbers, foot or horse behind gunline.

I believe the Russians had problems attempting to deploy into a gunline at Borodino – half-batteries were wrecked whilst getting into position.

The answer might be to hold waiting batteries in a covered location, and only attempt moving onto position outside effective enemy artillery fire. Foot artillery will need to accept casualties whilst deploying, horse artillery might be able to move quick enough to avoid getting caught.

Supporting infantry/cavalry always have the problem of how to support deployed artillery – if directly behind they will get mullered by counter-battery fire, if off to one side, or in cover – they'll be too far away to bring their arms to bear and defend the battery.

No…
I don't really think I need to get into it. 😄

Spoilsport.

I think 79th PA made a good point with his comment on granularity.
If horses are killed, do you cut the harnesses and bring in new horses, or use the surviving horses to get the gun out of the way as quickly as possible?
Can you get around the damaged limber, or is the road blocked?
I only recall hearing of one caisson being hit. It was a massive, dramatic explosion, and caught everybody's attention. I don't recall hearing how many horses were killed.

Grelber

I prefer…
"Oh no! My limbered artillery took 4 hits! I must roll for morale! I rolled a 2??? Oh well. Remove them."

I'm playing a game. I'm not running a detailed "simulation".
Good for you if you want to go into how well the horses are fed. 👍

Now just let them have their fun.

Fun game or a serious simulation was an intense question during that he 1970-80s.
The subtitle of our rules was'A Simulation Study of Napoleonic Warfare

If limbered artillery was so vulnerable, it does make you wonder how real armies actually managed to move their artillery around the battlefield.

Very carefully?
And behind the front line.

Maybe. It is just that in real battles the artillery seems to get moved around in conformance with the various formations, apart from redoubts and Grand Batteries. It doesnt overly bother me.

Wargamers are generally loath to move guns as it means they aren't firing!

Besides still playing Empire 3, do play a lot of Carnage & Glory which seems to be detailed in the computer anyway just haven't ran across rules that differentiate the two artillery formation.
Also am one to avoid counter battery fire until last option.

I think it really is a question of scale and granularity.

At a large scale the relevant factors may be "limbered artillery moves" and "limbered artillery doesn't shoot," for unlimbered, deployed artillery these are reversed.

Limbered or unlimbered artillery can be treated as other units for the effects of battle.

At very small scales the fates of individual gunners, drovers, horses, etc may be modeled.

A lot of rules seem to simply subsume the artillery train into the base area occupied by the model guns and crews.

To me the real question is "what makes a satisfying game model for you?"

My answer to this question can, and does, vary from game to game.

"We play a variety of SYW and AWI rules, and limbered artillery invariably has "Just shoot me!" as a priority.
As it should."

** Show me the manuals / standing orders that prioritize any artillery firing at any other artillery, at least in the horse and musket period. **

Historical analysis by historian types seems to indicate the exact opposite. Artillery was told to fire at targets that were – ultimately – a threat, such as cavalry and infantry.

Muir also says that it was a sort of "gentleman's agreement" between artillerists not to shoot at each other. Sounds odd, but I can see that happening.

So, if the boss doesn't say to shoot at limbered artillery in history, shouldn't it just be banned? If not, we're playing elves and orcses?

The other question is are limbered artillery a bigger / better target? The answer is mostly about range. At 100y they are bigger. At 200y they are not much bigger. At 300y they are the same fuzzy speck with dust cloud limbered or unlimbered. Any direct hit on a gun, wagon or caisson is purely by [slender] chance.

But because gamers are going to be gamers, if you disallow artillery as a target some wiseguy will ride his artillery up to point blank range, unlimber and begin firing. The best way to prevent this is to either say that artillery have to remain outside of "x" distance from the enemy, or else they will limber up and depart with their valuable toys, OR the fire charts massacres limbered artillery.

Again, gamers will be gamers. If you don't have rules requiring units to maintain spacing between each other [like real life…some excellent, well-written sets do] They will cram units into the smallest space possible to achieve fake "game mass" and get more things that shoot into the same area as other guy, which means they win. Of course, the miniatures will also get bent [along with history].

So aside from the historicity of the question -no, you can't shoot at guns at all, limbered or unlimbered – we are left with handling people who are either ignorant of history or are the competitive type who want to not bend the rules but squeeze them until they get the juice they want.

It's those people that require 50% of the rulebook exist. Everyone else would do just fine with the other 50% and the host / game master saying "keep 2" between all your units, artillery don't shoot artillery.

@ 14Bore

I'm north of Philadelphia in Abington – I live in the Battle of Whitemarsh [along with 20,000 others].

Where are you in this area?

@ Martin rapier "It is just that in real battles the artillery seems to get moved around in conformance with the various formations, apart from redoubts and Grand Batteries. It doesnt overly bother me.

Wargamers are generally loath to move guns as it means they aren't firing!"

I suspect that's because they aren't bothering about ammunition usage or cook offs in overheated barrels, both good reasons to stop firing and move to a better position.

@ Stalkey I'm afraid I'm sure I've read comments from 18th century/Napoleonic generals bewailing the fact that they wanted the artillery to fire at troops not guns, but that once fired on by an enemy battery they would ignore orders and retaliate.

I was in Europe for the last several weeks and only had my cell phone so could not properly respond until now.

There is no historical basis in the ACW for limbered artillery being a more vulnerable target than deployed artillery. Rules that make them more vulnerable are mostly a designer's trope, not based on facts.

ACW artillerists were not placed in an "overwatch" position just looking for a limbered battery to appear to take shots at a moving target. In fact, artillerists when they engaged in counter battery (which was discouraged) it was done very methodically.

All guns would concentrate each piece in a battery at a single enemy gun firing slowly to achieve maximum accuracy. Typically, one round per minute per gun. This kind of accuracy cannot be achieved at an undeployed moving battery and was simply not done.

Also, limbered artillery moved in variable formations the same as infantry. Batteries can move in a line, double column (2 guns abreast) or in single file along roads, which was most of their movement, but rarely in an exposed position. Spacing between limbered and unlimbered guns was not drastic.

Intervals between deployed guns was 14 yards by regulation, the gun limber was deployed 6 yards (facing forward) behind the deployed gun (which took up 5 yards) and took up a depth of 11 yards, then there was an 11-yard spacing to the caisson which was another 14 yards in depth. Total of 47 yards in depth.

Guns moving along roads in single column closed up to around 30 to 35 yards in total length to try and keep from stringing out the column. When moving off road, the lead guns would advance further closer to the distance when deployed in length to allow for space for rapid deployment, so they had similar spacing as deployed batteries.

A 6-gun battery could be moved quickly into position on the command Action Front, deploying and begin firing in less than 30 seconds, hardly enough time for enemy guns to even get off a single round. The amount of time being exposed while limbered was minimal.

Casualties in batteries as a rule where never high, averaging around 2.5% to 3% men and up to 10 to 12% horses. Artillery crews were well trained on replacing lost horses quickly, first from the allocated spares, then prioritizing the gun limber over the caisson limber. When batteries began to get overwhelmed by enemy guns or infantry that were closing in into effective range, they quickly withdrew to a safer position.

A moving limbered battery was likely less vulnerable than a deployed stationary battery that the enemy could then take effective aim and issue accurate fire.

Kim