"Scale Creep vs. Scale Assumption (figures per warrior)?" Topic

I just purchased a Wiz kids (D&D) Skeletal Frost Giant and Gigantic Skeletal Dragon, as I needed some powerful monster types for a skelli-horde. These figures are made from some kind of super bendable/resilient polymer & are very inexpensive. I'm sure these figures are supposed to be in scale for use with nominal 28mm human size minis. But they are WAY bigger than any previous "Giant" I've ever bought (all metal), which were also supposed to be at scale for a 28mm human. Admittedly, I didn't really appreciate how big these figures were when I bought them on Amazon, and when delivered, I was thinking why did they use such a big box? That is, until I opened it and figured out why. Pondering this further, I now see these are actually a realistic fantasy size, IF you assume your monsters are at a 1:1 scale with run of the mill troops. The Giant figure is about 6" tall to his head. I contend the many smaller "giant" types I've used in the past seem to be designed for games where human figures each might represent 10-20 actual warriors, that is, in a 25/28mm mass fantasy battle game vs. a skirmish type game. Although lately, GW has used humongous monsters in ALL their games, compared decades past, and to make matters more confusing, they refer to their small skirmish warbands as "Armies" (e.g., MESBG). So is this more scale creep facilitated via cheap polymer manufacturing in China, or is it just right sizing minis for use in actual 1:1 games (in terms of number of figures per number of warriors simulated)?

How big is a Real Dragon? A Real Giant?

I doubt if GW even thinks about such things. New materials and processes make it easier to manufacture bigger miniatures. And you can charge more.

+1 79th PA

I'm with the OFM. Measure a sample of red dragons nose to tail and wingspan and get back to me. Remember you need a large sample, so collect from a number of families and continents.

I've wondered about the appropriate size issue, too. Some of the monsters I see for sale in the local store are so large it is difficult to imagine a human sized creature actually injuring them.

How big is Smaug, for example. He was shot with an arrow and crashed onto Laketown. Even assuming he comes in at a low angle and much of the town was already aflame, how big would he have to be to take out the entire town? Maybe he hit the only part of the town that wasn't burning, but he still sounds like a really big beast. Maybe as big as a football field?

Medieval drawings show dragons being smaller. One picture of St. George slaying the dragon shows a beast about the size of George's white horse.

In I Samuel, Goliath is sometimes described as a giant. This may be a mistranslation, and he should be a champion, instead. Googling for his height, I get 9'9" (2.97 m) or 6'9" (2.06 m). Large, yes, and certainly threatening, but in the general range of very tall basketball players today.

I did read an interesting a study of pronghorn (fastest land animal in North America, by the way). They establish a pecking order when they are young. Even being born a week or so before another pronghorn gives you a significant weight advantage over others born that same spring, so they are the dominant individual.

So, for what it is worth, I would lean towards dragons that aren't the size of an apatosaurus and giants that don't have the sort of height advantage over me that I have over an ant.

Grelber

Watch House of the Dragon.
They have baby dragons that still have training wheels, and DRAGONS that have lived for over 100 years old and bonded with several generations of dragons.

I have to disagree with your reasoning: if Humans are 28mm, and they represent armies of Humans, how does this justify making Giant Army figures which are so ridiculously bigger than the size of a Human Army? I don't see your logic as making any sense.

Now, with regards to how big is a Giant? I went to the 1977 1e AD&D Monster Manual, which lists the original sizes of most monsters. I began to search for, and collect, figures which matched up with 25mm tall Human figures (the 1979 figure scale Gary Gygax eschewed in his 1e Dungeon Master's Guide), applying simple math to calculate how tall such a properly scaled figure should be in millimeters. Note that the Monster Manual listed figure sizes for individuals, not armies.

I came up with Hill Giant figures being 54mm tall, equal to some plastic Cave Men toy figures I found at Wal-Mart (Tim-Mee made; the small Skellie on the left is Human sized, 28mm?). I found that Frost Giants would clock in at 60mm tall figures -- I found 60mm plastic Viking figures (the Humans are 28mm figures). I also found "1/72 scale Goblins", made by Caesar, clocked in at 20mm, which matched up with the 1e Monster Manual's description. I found a few other figures that matched closely, but most figure makers are nowhere near the size ratio of what Gary's Monster Manual called for. I eventually gave up on finding properly sized figures. It was a fun pursuit while it lasted.

Some authors will tell you that Elves are 4-5 feet tall. Other authors will tell you that their Elves are 6-7 feet tall. Pick your author, and then pick your figures to match their view on how tall fantasy creatures should be.

Fantasy figures are all over for sizes. I agree that companies have lost their way (minds, actually) in choosing figure sizes. I also believe they assume they can charge more for larger figures, to line their wallets.

You do you for your figure sizes. Cheers!

Thanks for the responses. Sources such as the D&D Monster Manual should be relevant, especially if you are playing D&D! This is interesting, because the WizKids stuff is partnered with Wizards of the Coast (Hasbro) and they have the D&D license and are manufacturing these humongous minis. But in response to Sgt Slag, a lot of traditional miniatures games (historical, where we don't have to concern ourselves with literal monsters) use 25mm minis (then "heroic", then 28mm, then some 32mm, at least for Fantasy types due to scale creep). But in those historical games, e.g., Napoleonics, Ancients, et. cet., each figure usually represents 20 or maybe 50 troops, so that your wargame reflects the command structure where significant and interesting decisions are made, but you still get to paint up nice sized figures. In a Fantasy battle game, I would assume the same, and depending on the maneuvering rules it's easy to assume a scale in terms of models to men, if that isn't clearly specified in the rules system. In such rank and flank fantasy games, I always figured a giant is ONE giant, not 20, not 50, and so the miniature could be physically smaller than if it were to be scaled at 1:1 scale with humanoid sized troops. I would use the standard scaling laws, so for a 20:1 troop to figure ratio, I would assume a giant could be reduced in height by factor of 2.74:1 (cube root of the figure ratio, since there is 1 giant to 20 humanoids in this example). So a giant which could reasonably be 6x taller than a standard humanoid (like my new WizKid model) could be reduced by the scaling factor proportional to the men per figure and you end up with a ~2.2" tall giant figure for massed combat games (like a lot of my lead giants of old), but the 6" works when you have a skirmish type game with respect to the humanoids. At least that is the way I intend to rationalize the new scale creep.

Monster sizes have increased with every new version of official A/D&D published by TSR and subsequently WotC. The 1989 2e AD&D rules grossly/fantastically enlarged many monsters, including Giants. The WotC versions followed suit.

I've been playing 2e BattleSystem, published in 1989 also, since 1992. In it, the figure ratio is 10:1, except for Giants and Dragons, which are 1:1. The rules do not discuss resizing figures because of ratios. Such considerations have no important impact on the combat resolution.

I cannot abide the current WotC figure sizes. They are ridiculously large, IMO, of course. As I said, I pursued Gygax's 1977 monster sizes as best I could. Gygax was gifted in his color choices along with his sizes assigned to races in particular. Pursuing his sizes and color schemes really brought his talents into view in my endeavors. Gygax truly was gifted beyond his game rules. Cheers!

In a Fantasy battle game, I would assume the same, and depending on the maneuvering rules it's easy to assume a scale in terms of models to men, if that isn't clearly specified in the rules system. In such rank and flank fantasy games, I always figured a giant is ONE giant, not 20, not 50, and so the miniature could be physically smaller than if it were to be scaled at 1:1 scale with humanoid sized troops.

I have no problem with assumption that a single base with a giant stuck on it represents one giant, while a single base with a human/orc/elf model glued on it represents 20 or 50 respective combatants.

However, as far as mass combat fantasy rules are involved, it is typically the base dimensions that matter, rather than the exact figure height. If we assume that the ground scale (not figure scale) in game is 1:400, then a 50 mm x 50 mm base (with arbitrary number of figures on it) represents 20 m x 20 m area of the battlefield. In case of close order human (or equivalent) infantry we can make quite reasonable estimates about how many combatants will fit in that area. In case of a single particularly large combatant, it might be reasonable to assume that the base represents not only a single creature, but also a "safe space" left around it by smaller creatures that prefer not to get too close to avoid being accidentally crushed by the the big brute.

How tall giant you can fit on a 50 mm x 50 mm base depends a lot on the pose and sculpting style. A very dynamic pose with legs widely spread requires a larger base than a figure standing on spot with feet held close to each other.

As for the miniature material choices, very big models made out of metal can be a bit of pain to assemble (all that pinning work and super epoxy glue), and can end up uncomfortably heavy (especially if you need to transport a lot of figures). I can see certain benefits in using lower density polymeric materials for big gribblies.

You run into a similar "problem" with buildings.
In one of my first AWI games, I had an 28 figure 25mm regiment able to hide in line behind an HO scale barn.
A "suspension of disbelief" is sometimes called for.

If you let it bother you, it will bother you. You can't bring dragons or giants into a game and let "Realism" foul up an otherwise enjoyable game and spectacle.
I've seen a picture of St George killing a dragon. The dragon was smaller than a sheepdog.

Here is just one example.
link

The WotC figures were scaled to 5' to the inch

Make that an 18 figure regiment. 🤷🙄