 Editor in Chief Bill   | 21 Oct 2025 10:11 a.m. PST |
University of Nottingham course reportedly encourages students to re-interpret famous authors like JRR Tolkien and CS Lewis Fox News: link |
| Royston Papworth | 21 Oct 2025 11:10 a.m. PST |
Damn. Can't they just let us enjoy a work of literature as the author intended??? She obviously hasn't read the book as she would know that while there is reference to colour, it isn't that extreme. And bearing in mind it's supposed to be a mythology for Britain, do you really expect the main nations to be anything but reflective of the population of the UK at the time…? |
robert piepenbrink  | 21 Oct 2025 11:12 a.m. PST |
I say we feed the professors to the orcs. Few institutions have done more to discourage reading for pleasure than high school English and college Lit departments. |
 John the OFM | 21 Oct 2025 11:21 a.m. PST |
How about we "recolonize" all sorts of Modern or Postmodern crap that they enjoy? I went to a Catholic high school. The Nuns destroyed any interest i might have had in Roman history by demanding the exact approved translation of Caesar and Cicero. Never got as far as Belgium!
"Having been influenced by these things, Caesar made a march and picked up his impediments." And don't get me started on possibly the most boring book of all time, Silas Marner.
Or the "with it nun" who had us analyze Simon and Garfunkel. |
| nnascati | 21 Oct 2025 12:06 p.m. PST |
Well, it's Fox News, what do you expect? |
 Murphy  | 21 Oct 2025 12:07 p.m. PST |
"Well, it's Fox News, what do you expect?" Sure, Fox reported it, but it happened. Not our fault your MSM refuses to report stuff, so you don't believe it. |
| John the OFM | 21 Oct 2025 12:12 p.m. PST |
I got tired of listening to the lies on Fox, so now I get my lies from CNN. |
| 35thOVI | 21 Oct 2025 12:24 p.m. PST |
It is well known that all Professors are followers of Sauron. Some of his first converts. "Sauron sent forth his disciples into the realms of Elf, Dwarf and Man. They did teach and spread his lies and deceptions, and thus corrupted their hearts and minds. Thus did fall the realms east of the great river Anduin." |
| John the OFM | 21 Oct 2025 12:33 p.m. PST |
And before Sauron, there was Morgoth.
Professors are Full Balrog, Assistant Balrog and Associate Balrog. To get tenure, though, you must be a Full Balrog.
Durin's Bane obviously had tenure. He taught Post Modern Neo-Colonial Pragmatism.
Gandalf took away his grant funding. |
| robert piepenbrink | 21 Oct 2025 1:35 p.m. PST |
What can I say, OFM? My son's up for tenure, and his favorite army was always Orcs. Nnascati, is it your contention that the story is untrue--in which case someone should be suing Fox for libel--or just that no one should report true things you'd rather people didn't know about? |
| 14Bore | 21 Oct 2025 1:42 p.m. PST |
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| lkmjbc3 | 21 Oct 2025 1:53 p.m. PST |
I have seen this at least 3 different places from different sources. Joe Collins |
| 35thOVI | 21 Oct 2025 2:26 p.m. PST |
14Bore "Onyeka" -Most definitely an Orc name, I believe of the Morannon Orcs. |
 McKinstry | 21 Oct 2025 2:39 p.m. PST |
At some point it feels as if people are being stupid deliberately. Simply to say the words "decolonize Tolkein" is either a farce that got out of control or represents someone so immune to basic,not even as demanding as common, sense as to be oblivious to the real world. |
| John the OFM | 21 Oct 2025 3:47 p.m. PST |
@14Bore
I love how the scene where Miranda Otto as Eowyn (I totally rejected her as a villain in "24") is absolutely terrified the face the Witch King, yet she does her duty and prevails.
With of course a little help from the looted dagger in the Barrow Downs. I see the whole concept of "decolonization of Tolkien" to be a factor of too many teaching positions to be filled by unqualified, biased loons.
No offense to loons, of course. |
| Grattan54 | 21 Oct 2025 5:37 p.m. PST |
Oh for Pete sake. Can't they give this stuff a rest. Stephen Crane once wrote when asked about symbolism in his works "Sometime a rose is just a rose." Maybe, just maybe, an Orc is just a fictional character and just is… Orc! |
| troopwo | 21 Oct 2025 7:44 p.m. PST |
Why do I picture crowds of goblins on some university campus all holding signs and screaming, "Free Free Mordorstine!". |
 Parzival | 21 Oct 2025 8:48 p.m. PST |
Orcs in Tolkien are mutilated elves. They are not humans. They also come in a variety of shades, one of which is "sallow." (Sallow: Pale yellow.)
I can't think of anyone in real life who is that color. Other shades are unclear (they appear "pale grey" when viewed by Sam while wearing the Ring). There are "Black Uruks" from Mordor, but they are described as wearing black chain mail. One does have a "swart" face, but it's not described as a natural human-like appearance at all. For the record, the trolls in The Hobbit are not given a skin color, but also talk with the accents of working class Englishmen. They are also, apparently, made of stone.
The cave troll in Moria is described as covered in green scales.
So what "colonized" group are these supposed to be? How about the ents, who are covered in bark (presumably grey, black, and brown), yet are heroic figures in the tales— are they "colonized"? What rubbish. Tolkien actually does present other human races, some allied with Sauron, but as Sam contemplates the face of one killed in a battle, he speculates on the man's nature, wondering if he was "truly evil at heart" or what "lies and promises" led him into the war— the implication being that skin color and race had nothing to do with it. And of course there are white men presented as truly evil. (One must admit that Wormtongue and Saruman are distinctly white individuals, and as evil as they come… indeed, *they* are indeed bent on conquest and "colonization"— of the Shire!) And of course there is no desire of the heroes to colonize anything ever mentioned in the novels. At the most, there are attempts to retake lands stolen by orcs (or a dragon)— Moria and the Lonely Mountain— or the various lost lands of Gondor. Nobody is interested in invading the "Southron" lands at all, or much of anywhere else. Heck, the Gondorians don't even want Mordor— they just don't want it constantly spewing forth murder and mayhem. But it's interesting that this "scholar" (and I use the term loosely) assumes that violent, boorish behavior *must* mean that the orcs— which are entirely fictional, and loosely based on English fairy tale creatures— goblins, etc..— represent real world dark-skinned races and cultures.
Why would this person make this assumption? Tolkien never makes that argument in the novels, and AFAIK never did such a thing in his public or private communications. Indeed, in his activities outside of his fanciful writings, he does not appear to be particularly racist at all. Racism is not at all apparent in his attitude in any way, nor is any real cultural racism present. Yes, he thinks that English culture and myth are at least worthy of respect and even embracing, but who does not believe so about their own cultures? It is a natural thing to love one's heritage and cultural elements, especially for an ardent student of literature. I would expect no less of any literary scholar of any culture. It does not mean that such a scholar is racist. This is claptrap nonsense spewed by a self-important twit seeking his moment in the sun. Well, he's had it. Now let's all ignore his idiocy and move on. |
| John the OFM | 21 Oct 2025 9:26 p.m. PST |
@Parzival. 👍 It's interesting to watch a Peter Jackson interview where he says that "Of course, we don't wish to impose our views on Tolkien."
Then watch an interview with the cast of "Rings of Power ", where they proudly brag about updating Tolkien to today. 🙄 |
| SBminisguy | 21 Oct 2025 10:07 p.m. PST |
I always thought that if you see racism in Tolkien's works by looking at Orcs and thinking, "Oh, Orcs remind me of Black People" -- that maybe, just maybe, YOU are the racist… |
| Korvessa | 21 Oct 2025 10:14 p.m. PST |
Kind of reminds me of the time John Lennon wrote a completely ridiculous song just to screw with all the blowhards of academia who over-analiyzed everything. |
| Toaster | 21 Oct 2025 11:04 p.m. PST |
And Tolkien himself said that while there was no intent to represent any real world peoples in LotR it was unavoidable that current events would influence his writing. This means that if the big bad and his minions and lackeys have any basis in the real world it's Nazi Germany, one of the most right wing white supremist nations to ever defile this planet. Robert |
| 35thOVI | 22 Oct 2025 3:41 a.m. PST |
@parz Of course you are correct. But for many, race, gender and sexual orientation are a crutch. They can blame all of life's failures on their being 1 or all 3. Without that crutch, they would have to blame their failings on themselves. The horror! |
| troopwo | 22 Oct 2025 6:12 a.m. PST |
Toaster, yet strangely enough many locations are battles from Italian East Africa? Of course the battle of the five armies has always been considered a fantasy replay of battle of the nations suck as Leipzig. Parzival, your explanation of orcs is wasted on me.
Kev Adams ruined me forever with smiley faced gobbos and orcs. When Bill highlighted his christmas trees with orcs in sombreros I just about cried. Wannnnnnnnnnnt orcs in sombrerros nowwwwwwww,,,,,,. |
| John the OFM | 22 Oct 2025 7:15 a.m. PST |
Aren't the trolls in The Hobbit Cockney?
Someone needs to be outraged about that! |
| Martin Rapier | 22 Oct 2025 8:06 a.m. PST |
You can read the relevant module definition on Talis: link it isn't anything as sensational as the Telegraph, Fox News etc make out. But hey, it is all about clicks. British mythology is very interesting, I read a lot of it, even if some of it is completely insane. I do like the giants walking up the Mediterranean from Africa carrying the stones for Stonehenge with them. |
| Parzival | 22 Oct 2025 8:58 a.m. PST |
Troopwo: I never knew there were eagles at Leipzig. 
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| Shardik | 22 Oct 2025 1:28 p.m. PST |
Stephen Crane once wrote when asked about symbolism in his works "Sometime a rose is just a rose." Or as Stephen King once wrote "sometimes a story is just a story" |
| John the OFM | 22 Oct 2025 3:23 p.m. PST |
As Freud said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." |
| machinehead | 22 Oct 2025 4:02 p.m. PST |
This is Tolkien's description of orcs in letter #210. 19. Why does Z put beaks and feathers on Orcs!? (Orcs is not a form of Auks.) The Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the ?human? form seen in Elves and Men. They are (or were) squat, broad, flat nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types. link |
| Parzival | 22 Oct 2025 7:52 p.m. PST |
Let us acknowledge that the "letter" is not sourced nor cited, so we can be somewhat cautious about embracing it as actually by Tolkien. Nevertheless, it does sound like Tolkien, and in the context of what it's supposedly about— a reaction to a movie treatment (not a filmed thing, but a filmmaker's ideas written out for how things would appear, possibly with sketches… the letter isn't clear…). If you read the entirety of that link you will see numerous criticisms of how the various scenes, characters, and creatures are visually described in appearance; the writer of the letter is attempting to correct the visuals to be more in line with a particular look as he envisioned them (and in some cases presented them in the novel). However, it does not say that the orcs ARE Mongols, or that Mongols themselves are orcs. Nor does it even say that all Mongols look like orcs, but rather that the "least lovely"— significantly as perceived by Europeans— of such a group is a close approximation of an orc in appearance. It is not even a statement about how one cultural group perceives another cultural group, but rather how one racial group perceives the appearance of a certain segment of another racial group solely in terms of general visual attractiveness (not sexuality, but just "appealing or unappealing," as it were). In other words, to take such things, whether they come from a right attitude or a wrong one, and exaggerate them in the worst possible light in terms of appearance only. In short, it's saying "take the ugliest example of an ugly person from a least favored racial group to European eyes, and make it even uglier (to European eyes), and that's an orc." Note that the letter doesn't say that Europeans are necessarily all beautiful or never ugly themselves— just that in general Europeans perceive ugliness in a certain way, and perceive ugliness in certain other races even less favorably. But it's not a question of cultural acceptance or value or of personal value, class or caste— it's just that the typical person of a given race sees "beauty" within the context of his or her own race, and less so in other races, and may see appearance-based "ugliness" as more extreme in a person of another race than within their own. It is not a statement on whether the other person of another race is noble or good or just or intelligent or worthy or equal— or the opposite of these things. It's like saying, "Well, old Joe down at the factory is a great guy, but dang, is he ugly." Joe may well indeed be both, and the latter really doesn't detract from the former. So even this letter is not actually racist at all.
Racism is when you dismiss a person's value or capabilities or ideas or thoughts based upon negative perceptions solely derived from their skin color or similar distinctive visual appearances.
"Mongols are orcs" would be racist— it holds a cultural judgement and dismissal or even devaluation or defamation.
"Orcs look like really ugly Mongols" is not racist. It may be awkward, especially in today's hypersensitive world, but it bears no actual value judgment, dismissal, or defamation at all. Appearance judgment, yes. But then, ugly is indeed in the eye of the beholder, and appearance is the least worthwhile judgment for good or ill ever conceived. So, in the end, Tolkien does not actually make the orcs any real-world racial group or culture. He thinks of them as merely human-like, but very ugly to an extreme. They otherwise bear no resemblance to any non-English culture— in fact, their speech, like the trolls, is more like various working-class English dialects than any other culture in the real world. Reading the overheard orc exchanges in TLotR is more like listening in on the (entirely white) criminal element in a Victorian slum than any dialect or behavior from any colonized region. |
| machinehead | 23 Oct 2025 2:27 a.m. PST |
The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien is a selection of the philologist and fantasy author J. R. R. Tolkien's letters. It was published in 1981, edited by Tolkien's biographer Humphrey Carpenter, who was assisted by Christopher Tolkien. The selection, from a large mass of materials, contains 354 letters. These were written between October 1914, when Tolkien was an undergraduate at Oxford, and 29 August 1973, four days before his death. The letters are of interest both for what they show of Tolkien's life and for his interpretations of his Middle-earth writings.
link
The letter is by Tolkien; I own the book myself along with all of the books put out by Christopher Tolkien (who helped on this book). Without further context the statement could be interpreted either way, a racist statement or a description to help the reader to visualize what an orc looks like. Like you I go with the latter but can see how the former could be taken especially in the times we live in where people look for reasons to be butt hurt.
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| 35thOVI | 23 Oct 2025 6:02 a.m. PST |
🤔 Orcs were corrupted Elves. Orcs: "in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types." So Elves then look like the most lovely of non-corrupted orientals? |
| machinehead | 23 Oct 2025 7:30 a.m. PST |
"Orcs were corrupted Elves." Not necessarily, that was Tolkien's original origin for orcs but in his later years he became more and more uncomfortable with that idea and mentions they were corrupted men or even soulless beasts. HIs son went with the elven origin when he edited the Silmarillion together. A good read on it here.
link |
| John the OFM | 23 Oct 2025 9:01 a.m. PST |
The stories only included Orcs and trolls, without bothering to go into their derivations.
It's when he started to try to explain them that he ran into … things. Him being an academic, he continually felt the need to clarify things. The "In Deep Geek" site goes into all those long weeds.
Here's his latest, in which he nerds out over the differences between Orcs and Uruk-Hai. YouTube link Search his site for things like "How many Balrogs were there?"
That site is quite a rabbit hole.
He also covers Game of Thrones. Charmingly, or naively, he actually believes that we will see The Winds of Winter! |
| robert piepenbrink | 23 Oct 2025 10:10 a.m. PST |
"…he actually believes that we will see The Winds of Winter!" He DOES? That marvelous--or touching. Possibly both. Does he leave cookies out for Santa Claus, do you know? That's assuming he's talking about The Winds of Winter by George R. R. Martin, of course. Even I believe those of us under 50 may live to see Winds of Winter by Someone Else, by arrangement with the Martin Estate. In fact, "feeding frenzy" probably doesn't quite cover the response of fantasy authors to Martin's passing. |
| John the OFM | 23 Oct 2025 5:59 p.m. PST |
Fantasy authors long dead will be lining up to finish it.
Being dead is not exactly a negative factor in The World of Ice and Fire, is it? |
| John the OFM | 23 Oct 2025 6:00 p.m. PST |
Tolkien isn't exactly prejudiced against the negatively alive either. Consider Glorfindel and Gandalf. |
| The H Man | 23 Oct 2025 6:06 p.m. PST |
Hey, at least they aren't banning them. Lotr is more popular than it would ever have been, post 2001. Things like this are bound to pop up from time to time. Only rekindling interest. There are far too many books out there for anyone to be able to do too much to them. |
| robert piepenbrink | 27 Oct 2025 1:01 p.m. PST |
"After an author has been dead for some time, it becomes increasingly difficult for his publishers to get a new book out of him each year." ― Robert Benchley |
| Cke1st | 28 Oct 2025 3:28 p.m. PST |
From the river to the sea,
Gorgoroth will be free! |
