"Questions re: c.1812 painting of Naval & Military personnel" Topic

Greetings fellow TMPers,

I am not a regular on the 1812 or 18th Century boards but I am a long-time denizen of TMP and I am here to ask for help from those who know much more than me about American and British Naval and Marine uniforms of the early 19th Century…

A cousin of mine has an original artwork he believes was made by the artist John Lewis Krimmel, a German immigrant to the U.S.A. who was active in Philadelphia starting around 1811 until his untimely early death by drowning in 1821. Krimmel is known to have made several paintings featuring members of the American military.

The painting I am uploading below features what I believe are several Navy sailors, perhaps one Navy Bosun, and one Marine Corps musician. That is my semi-educated guess. But as I said above, I am no expert. It's also possible that all the figures depicted are British, the sailors and bosun from the Royal Navy and Marine Corps musician actually being a musician in a regiment of the British Army. Or maybe there's a completely different explanation I'm unaware of.

If anyone can share their well-informed opinion on the origin of the figures in the painting it would be greatly appreciated and thank you in advance for your time!

One note is that the sailor in the GOLD top-hat's hat seems to have been repaired or altered, so it may not have been that color when first painted (my guess is it was black like every other such hat I've ever seen, but of course there's no way to know for sure).

Another note is re: the red-coated officer in the painting hanging high on the tavern wall on the upper right side of the painting. I know there were a handful of red-coated units in the AWI and it's also possible it is a British officer from the F&IW, but on the face of it the redcoated figure in this painting seems to by evidence that the entire tavern setting may possibly be British rather than American, in which case I suppose the shako plate on the red-coated musician's hat would be from a British Army regiment. Any thoughts?

The last note is for me to bring the attention of any early 19th century Naval/nautical experts to the long narrow off-white item in the lower left corner of the painting, which to my eye largely ignorant eyes looks like it may be a whalebone of some sort or maybe some other valuable nautical item wrapped up in sailcloth or canvas. Any information on this item will be highly appreciated as well!

I am also uploading a close-up of the red-coated musician with the stovepipe shako so the shako plate is more easily visible…

The shako plate has what looks like a crown at the top, which suggests British.

Could the "bosun's" hat be straw? (several of the colour plates in Osprey's Nelson's Navy show straw hats).

John,

Thanks for the reply! I agree the top section of the shako plate may indeed be a crown, in which case he's definitely British, I assume from an Army unit rather than Marines, as I don't think Royal Marines of this era wore shakoes, but rather the "round hat" -- though I may be wrong or there may be exceptions (like I said above, I am not an expert on the period). Another piece of evidence on the British forces side of the scales is the color of his trousers, which look to me to be the same color as British infantry trousers from 1810/11 known I believe as "Oxford mixture."

Re: the gold/yellow top-hat… the man standing up and wearing it on his head looks to me like a regular sailor, not a Bosun. I think the seated guy at left rear of the table who is looking at the serving woman about to set down his soup or stew may be a Bosun, since he wears semi-civilian clothing but still strikes me as possibly being from the same ship as the other men who I think are probably Navy sailors.

When I first looked at the picture and replied to my cousin, I asked him if there was any evidence of damage and repair to the spot on the canvas where the gold top-hat is located and he told me yes, there is. So that spot was almost certainly damaged and then touched up -- maybe by someone who wasn't familiar with early 19th century naval dress and/or just thought it would be cool to give the guy a gold hat!

From NYPL collection – Petty officer of the Napoleonic Wars wearing straw hat, reefer jacket and neckerchief link

IIRC Royal Navy sailors didn't wear uniforms until the late 19th century. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if their clothes tended to look the same, form follows function.

The scene appears to be an English or Scottish home re the wash barrels through the archway.. Note the painting that appears to show a Scottish officer of the British army re the crimson sash over the shoulder. Also note the dark blue facings that normally indicate a royal regiment e.g.., The Royal Highland Regiment "Black Watch". Or it could be a Highland Fencible Regiment officer.

The sitting violin figure is a mystery. He is not wearing a regulation British coat of the period. The coat appears to have yellow facings on the collar but no white trim. Also there are no facings or lace on the cuffs nor on the shoulder straps. Instead there are twisted cord instead of shoulder straps, which featured much later in the 19th century. However, the explanation for this strange dress is that it may be an undress coat that would be worn off duty.

The shako is very tall compared to the regulation 'stove pipe' shako. The shako plate does indeed appear to a regulation infantry plate of the period. But this semi regular shako would not be worn with an undress coat. Instead, he would wear the undress floppy cloth hat. He is not a British army musician as they would wear reverse colours e.g. yellow jacket with red facings. The trousers appear to be the regulation grey but there are no grey gaiters My guess is that he is part of the yeomanry militia, which sometimes, were dressed on the whim of the colonel.

The sailors are dressed as conventional sailors of the Napoleonic period. The black round hat was standard headdress as were the white linen trousers and blue jackets. Straw hats frequently replaced the round hat, particularly in hot climates. Shirts were white or white striped blue and sometimes red with a blue neck scarf. Note the kneeling sailor with the striped shirt, he has a hair queue or braid, which places him in the early 1800s circa 1808. I believe queues were deregulated around 1808 in the army and the navy followed later but I am not sure when.

My conjecture is that the painter was painting from memory of a scene from his homeland, England. This would explain the many uniform anomalies.

For Naval informs of the period may I suggest; Nelson's Navy by Philip Haythornthwaite, Osprey; Nelson's Sailors, Osprey Warrior 100; and The Royal Navy 1790-1970, Osprey MAA 65. These publications are loaded with uniform plates.

I hope that you find this information useful for your project.

Prince of Essling,

Many thanks for that link! I had never seen an early 19th century straw topcoat or roundhat until I clicked on it.

Murvhill,

You are correct about Royal Navy and American Navy sailors not having government issue uniforms at this time, but you are also right about them dressing in a uniform fashion. In fact, most of the time their clothing was made to order from material purchased using their ship captain's funds.

IronDuke596,

Thank you so much for your many excellent observations, which are indeed very useful and helpful! I do have a follow-up question:

Why do you think the presence of wash barrels means the setting is in the UK, rather than the early USA? I believe at that time wash barrels were used here in the same way as they were in the UK. But I'm very interested to hear if you have some specifics that imply their presence suggest the scene is located in the UK rather than the USA.

The artist who my cousin believes painted this painting was born in Germany and immigrated to the city of Philadelphia in the U.S. as a young adult, and there is no record of him ever visiting the UK. This is one of the mysteries I am hoping to solve, or at least gain some clues pointing one way or another -- towards confirming the location is a tavern in the USA or establishing that it is a tavern somewhere in the UK.

Another possibility that was raised by a commenter over on the Lead Adventure Forum, where I also posted the image, is that the setting may be a port city in early 19th Century Canada. But your comments re: the redcoat wearing figure in the portrait on the wall being a Highland officer is interesting, and of course one of the seated sailors (or perhaps a bosun) does wear a Kilmarnock hat/bonnet. Any further thoughts from you on any/all of these matters will be much appreciated!

The presence of wash barrels was only meant to indicate a domestic setting of a private home not necessarily in the UK. Of note is that sailors were sometimes billeted with families while ashore.

The setting could indeed be in the province of Nova Scotia or even the great harbour city of Halifax. Also, there were many Scottish families resident in Nova Scotia as there were in the other three provinces of the Canadas. So the setting including the portraits would not be out of place in Halifax or other Scottish settlements in Canada. Further, many Canadian militia regiments whose citizens were of Scottish origin frequently wore the highland and Scottish uniforms.