 ColCampbell  | 02 Oct 2025 5:24 p.m. PST |
The following statement was provided to me by Christie Brom for general publication: Sergeants 3 has authorized an indefinite shut down of their website as it undergoes a significant overhaul for an improved experience and new features. We will be temporarily out of business and unable to fill orders during this period. There isn't a specific relaunch date, yet, but we assure the vast wargaming community that our design team will work deligently to return online as soon as possible.There is a team of devoted TSATF wargamers who are also working on the 45+ anniversary edition of Dad's gaming classic. Sergeants 3 thanks the wargaming community both nationwide and overseas for their continuing support, and above all, their patience during this difficult transition period. Thanks to you ALL……the Flame will continue! Jim |
 Yellow Admiral | 02 Oct 2025 5:28 p.m. PST |
Well… cool enough, I guess! I hope that works out. I'd like to be able to order more of the rules I'm missing. Thanks for the announcement. |
 Murphy  | 02 Oct 2025 5:57 p.m. PST |
Okay I am going to be "the baddie". To me "indefinite shut down" sounds more like "We're shutting down everything and don't know when or "IF" we will ever be back up again." Websites cost money and we know for a while now that money has been a VERY big issue with this. There was no update on Christie getting resettled/moved. No one has known much of anything or heard anything but suddenly "There's a team working on this?" Who? The 40th anniversary edition is essentially out the window and dust in the wind, etc. etc. etc. So now we are looking at the 45+? I'm at the point of saying, "just sell the rights to someone that can get them back in print, published, and on the market again." Sometimes you have to just let go of stuff. Y'all can now commence to calling me names and threating to run me out of town on a rail now…. |
| 79thPA | 02 Oct 2025 6:21 p.m. PST |
I agree with Murphy. There has been too much radio silence. I sincerely hope that she can get back on her feet. |
| robert piepenbrink | 02 Oct 2025 7:12 p.m. PST |
Well, that's it, then. A pity. A great rule set and a long tradition. Col Campbell, I trust you'll let us know if there is ever a positive development? Thanks. |
| DisasterWargamer | 02 Oct 2025 8:14 p.m. PST |
Thanks for sharing Jim Looking forward to seeing the 45th |
 John the OFM | 02 Oct 2025 10:31 p.m. PST |
"Shutting down the website…"
You should maintain the minimum to keep it open, lest the domain gets hijacked by n'ere do wells. |
| Fitzovich | 03 Oct 2025 3:57 a.m. PST |
My read is that we are announcing what everyone already understood to be the case. There's a chance it migh5 come back, but don't expect that to really happen, |
| Andrew Walters | 03 Oct 2025 9:54 a.m. PST |
The world has truly made us cynical. I'm not judging, I felt it, too, when I read this. We've heard lots of messages like this that were just denial, optimism, and stringing us along. This really sounds like one of those. But I'm choosing to be optimistic. It costs nothing. I caught the word "team". We know the whole franchise fell into the hands of people who couldn't handle it. Certainly there was a huge store of goodwill. Maybe a group coalesced that can put this all back together. It wouldn't be that hard. It would be nice if they gave a date for the relaunch, but it's essentially a volunteer thing. I paid for the 40th Anniversary Edition, as I bet a lot of us did. Maybe it will appear under a new name. A bunch of us have been hankering to order a couple more of the expansions. Let's hope it all comes together. This message is better than silence, right? Best wishes from me! |
| robert piepenbrink | 03 Oct 2025 10:43 a.m. PST |
The optimist pays in disappointment, Andrew. It's the pessimist who has nothing but pleasant surprises. Me? I'm a skeptic. And the difference between "we hope to be up and running by New Years" and "soon" leaves a lot of room for skepticism. A "commitment" without any date is an insult to our intelligence. Yeah, I paid for 40th too--and wrote off that money long ago. I'll buy a new edition if and when, but I won't pre-order again. For that, I rate an apology and a request that I cancel the debt, neither of which would have cost Christie Brom a dime, and neither of which any of us have received. We're not only not receiving product, we're not receiving common courtesy. I've been stiffed by retailers before, and didn't much care for it. But being treated like a fool is worse. |
| John the OFM | 03 Oct 2025 11:24 a.m. PST |
I didn't prepay for 40th anniversary edition for the same reason I don't back kickstarters. |
| robert piepenbrink | 03 Oct 2025 12:54 p.m. PST |
Oh, 40th was never a kickstarter, OFM. It was a gofundme, and most of us knew it. We didn't prepay because we urgently needed a new edition, but because Lori was hard up. It's the discourtesy since which galls. For what it's worth, my experience with kickstarters has been good. No money is collected unless and until they have enough for the project and each case--between six and ten by now--the product has been as described and delivered reasonably promptly. I've more often been disappointed by pre-ordered books on Amazon, which are delivered on time, but are sometimes not worth reading, let alone keeping. The latest SM Stirling went almost straight into the discard box. |
 The Virtual Armchair General | 03 Oct 2025 1:04 p.m. PST |
As I personally know the man given the TSTAF40 ms to edit by Lori Brom not long before her unexpected passing, I can say there is at least one person in the "team," and can infer at least one, perhaps two or more. So, that much is fact. However, that admittedly doesn't in and of itself guarantee any timelines. Last I was told by one of "the team," the decision of just how the updated ms (plus likely other additions) actually was to be published is still in dispute. Also not a good sign. However, there are a few actual people willing to die on this hill to make Larry Brom's legacy survive--indeed, prosper--or know the reason why. And let's put to rest the well meant but unrealistic idea of someone "buying the rights" and publishing themselves. No one is going to pay anything like a fair price to Christy for a set of rules, plus supplemental material by the original author, some 45 years old. And damn, damn, damn the crapulous snake who would just print his own ripped off version, and damn anyone else who would not drink coffee to stay up nights also to damn that lifeform. TVAG |
| Andrew Walters | 03 Oct 2025 2:34 p.m. PST |
I've had people approach me online and ask me to scan TSATF expansions for them. I bet they asked a bunch of people, since that costs nothing, and I bet somebody was willing where I wasn't. And once it's out there, it's out there. I probably have all the TSATF products I need, but I wouldn't mind buying a few more, if I could. I've tried. My money is sitting right here, ready to go. But here we are. The pessimist pays their disappointment up front, and over and over. The optimist only at the end, and maybe not at all. And I know the odds are against me, but it really doesn't hurt very much to hope there's a new Sergeants3.com accepting my money in the new year. |
| John the OFM | 03 Oct 2025 3:35 p.m. PST |
And let's put to rest the well meant but unrealistic idea of someone "buying the rights" and publishing themselves. No one is going to pay anything like a fair price to Christy for a set of rules, plus supplemental material by the original author, some 45 years old. "Anything like a fair price" would not make it worthwhile for the purchaser. How many could he sell? "Kids today" want a hard bound book with dozens of pretty pictures. Then they'll bitch and complain when it costs $50. USD Yes, the rules are now 45 years old. Very dated. And we old timers still playing it love how dated it is.
Buying the rights "at a fair price" and then trying to sell it makes it non-viable.
Too many people paid for a copy years ago. I didn't. I figured I would buy a copy once it came out.
How many people would buy it who haven't already, in effect, bought in on a crashed Kickstarter, are left? Yeah. Define "at a fair price", both ways. |
| 79thPA | 03 Oct 2025 4:50 p.m. PST |
You would have to see the sales numbers for at least the last three years to take a stab at a fair offer. Since the last anniversary edition, I am sure many more TSATF players have died than been replaced by new blood. No way to know what percentage of the fan base was lost due to mismanagement, bad luck, or whatever you want to call it. After the nostalgia spike in sales, I expect sales to flatline, then drop. For an investor to buy it, I think a fair market value is pretty minimal. |
| robert piepenbrink | 03 Oct 2025 6:49 p.m. PST |
A fair price is what you can get for something in a free, open competitive market. Many people would like more, of course. But it's making no money for anyone right now. Selling someone the right to print and sell a limited number of copies would give Christie some money and keep the set available to recruit new adherents. The longer it's out of print, the smaller the player base is going to be. |
| John the OFM | 03 Oct 2025 7:32 p.m. PST |
Economics 101:
"The value of a thing is what someone is willing to pay for it."
Duh!
Or is it Doh? 🤷 Anyway, when or if 40/45th anniversary edition comes out, I will check my jar of quarters to see if I can afford it.
I'm happy with 20th edition, when Larry RIP was in charge. I'm not in love with "flashy" updates. |
| robert piepenbrink | 04 Oct 2025 5:22 a.m. PST |
I hope you're right, Andrew. But the longer it goes without a legal way to purchase TSATF or related material, the more piracy there will be. There is no legal distinction between starting a ball game on someone's lawn and starting one in a vacant lot--trespassing either way--but there's an important moral distinction between theft and making use of abandoned property. If Sergeants3 doesn't at least announce a planned start-up date in the near future--announcing before Christmas that they plan to be up by Easter, say--they're going to cross that line. |
| 79thPA | 04 Oct 2025 6:58 a.m. PST |
Great point, Robert. Product is obviously being copied now, but on a small scale. Once the product line appears to be abandoned -- and, it's not far from that now -- it will be scanned and distributed on a larger scale. Gamers will fill the void. And we know what the thought process will be. I am not taking money out of anyone's pocket. People want it. I am helping keep Larry's legacy alive by keeping his rules available. I know Christie had a lot to deal with, but a business cannot stay silent for a year. |
| Andrew Walters | 04 Oct 2025 10:26 a.m. PST |
I think it's been more than a year. As for what the young people want, it's long been observed that young people and older people want different things, and the general movement is from flashy, proprietary, sci fi and fantasy, involved rules with lots of templates, tables, and special dice in youth, and more straightforward historical rules in maturity. So comparing TSATF to Mage Knight or collectibles or anything involving game-specific dice is apples-to-oranges. The big money is in selling color hard backs to kids, and I think they're more than $50 USD by now. But there will always be a marke, a much less remunerative market, for things like Sergeants3 sells. TSATF gives an exciting game. It doesn't require a lot of paraphernalia. It's adaptable both to various eras and to your particular rules tweaks. It has what it takes to succeed in its niche regardless of its age. But if you can't buy it only the pirates will have a copy. |
| DevoutDavout | 04 Oct 2025 3:38 p.m. PST |
I do not and have not played TSATF. But I have followed these threads loosely over the past year. Im just curious the game is so old and seems complete, why not just throw the pdf up on Wargamesvault, no hosting etc (a cut but no up front fee) and call it a day? If concern is piracy, the site has the option to watermark every page with the purchasers name and date. My March Attack is such. |
 piper909 | 04 Oct 2025 5:06 p.m. PST |
In a different but related thread, earlier this year I posted an open invitation for anyone connected with the Brom family/estate and Sergeants 3 (not sure what their legal arrangements with the Broms, actually) to contact me via PM or posting a reply on the board about opening a discussion about the possibility of a purchase of the publication rights to TS&TF and all related products. I have a genuine investor interest in backing a proposal to secure the publication rights to all the old, current, and future materials and the background in game design/publishing to make this happen (as well as having played these rules since 1980 in one form or another). I have yet to hear any reply but my offer remains open. I would like to end this limbo state of affairs if I can be in a position to do so legally (financially and creatively, I already am). |
| Andrew Walters | 04 Oct 2025 5:39 p.m. PST |
Creating decent PDFs and getting them up on Wargame Vault is a great answer, but it would take work. Undoubtedly there are not good files. That means scans (ick) or redoing everything. And there are dozens of products. I agree it's a great answer, and who knows, that's what they may do. But it's a lot of work. The story told on the internet is that Larry Brom requested his family *not* sell the rights, and they appear to be honoring that. So while sale to a third party with the capacity to give the the entire product line the backing it deserves also sounds like a great answer, it's probably not going to happen. I wonder if just *licensing* the material to a third party would be in keeping with his wishes. Not sure if that's been explored. So we just have to keep our fingers crossed and hope that 2026 is the year for TSATF. |
| John the OFM | 04 Oct 2025 8:08 p.m. PST |
The story told on the internet is that Larry Brom requested his family *not* sell the rights, and they appear to be honoring that. So while sale to a third party with the capacity to give the the entire product line the backing it deserves also sounds like a great answer, it's probably not going to happen. And, that is probably the main problem. Larry's "last wishes". |
| 79thPA | 05 Oct 2025 5:53 a.m. PST |
The potential problem with "last wishes" is that they can be locked into a time and place. I never met Larry but, as a father, I don't think he would have made that his last wish if he knew one daughter was going to die not too long after him, and the other was going to be destitute. I know I wouldn't have. |
 enfant perdus | 05 Oct 2025 1:13 p.m. PST |
79thPA nailed it. IIRC, there are also no other children or grandchildren, so keeping it a family business is a short term prospect. Game mechanics can not be copyrighted. A game title can be trademarked, but that requires "maintenance", both in terms of periodic legal filings and (crucially) active use in the marketplace by the owner. At this point the intellectual property value of TSATF is not looking terribly healthy. Besides the fact that the game largely appeals to nostalgia for people of a certain age, the blunt fact is that the longer this drags out, the more likely someone will else file for the trademark and use it in whatever way they see fit, including for an improved version of Brom's game. Christy should take whatever offer she can get, as soon as possible. |
| Andrew Walters | 05 Oct 2025 1:55 p.m. PST |
From sheer pragmatism that is probably right. But sentimentally, maybe not. As for last wishes locking people into disadvantageous choices when circumstances change, absolutely. There's a reason wills are legally limited in this respect. But at the end of the day, here we are. We can only make the best of the parts we can control. Hindsight is 20/20, etc. I just hope that whatever "team" means it includes some people will skills and energy, not just good intentions. And my money will be ready when… ok, fine if or when things get rolling. |
| robert piepenbrink | 05 Oct 2025 6:26 p.m. PST |
I too understand that Christie feels obligated not to sell, and I can respect that. It's the unwillingness to license or cut someone in for a percentage to keep the games available and the overall vagueness which drives me to fury. If she can get any sort of product out, I'll chip in some money, and I hardly ever play colonials. But she's making it impossible to help her. |
| John the OFM | 05 Oct 2025 9:08 p.m. PST |
Well, I'm not exactly waiting for Godot. I'm perfectly happy using the 20th anniversary edition.
I'm not exactly contemplating the existential absurdity of playing with toy soldiers as an adult. |
| piper909 | 07 Oct 2025 4:15 p.m. PST |
I have been reading on the EN World D&D & Tabletop RPG News & Reviews website forums how Steve Jackson got his copyrights to "The Fantasy Trip" RPG back not too long ago after a legal campaign that established the right of a creator to reclaim intellectual property rights for a game that had been out of print for a certain length of time. Same as for trademark protections that lapse if the owner does not maintain them. Jackson spent some bucks on lawyers but once his rights had been determined, it didn't really cost anything to regain his properties as such. He was simply able to reclaim them and do with them what he wished. In his case, this has allowed The Fantasy Trip materials to be republished after a long period in limbo. ANY game designer could do something similar (I have an extinct Metagaming microgame from 1980 affected but am not inclined to pursue reclaiming it after all this time since I have no desire to revise it like I would want or any opportunity to have it republished). But I wonder that if TS&TF just fades away, at some point it will come into the public domain in some fashion, and then anyone might step in and do what they want with it and whatever family remains will get bubkes. |
| John the OFM | 07 Oct 2025 6:05 p.m. PST |
That's exactly why I warned above to not let the website lapse. |
 gaiusrabirius | 08 Oct 2025 6:10 a.m. PST |
piper909: curious, which Metagaming microgames did you design? |
| Andrew Walters | 08 Oct 2025 9:33 a.m. PST |
TSATF will pass into the public domain, but it will be decades. More decades than I have left. |
| 79thPA | 08 Oct 2025 10:34 a.m. PST |
Quite right, Andrew. We will all be dead, and the vast majority of TMPer's children will be dead. It will be up to our grandchildren or great grandchildren, and they will probably be beyond caring. |
