"Statement from Sergeants3" Topic

The following statement was provided to me by Christie Brom for general publication:

Sergeants 3 has authorized an indefinite shut down of their website as it undergoes a significant overhaul for an improved experience and new features. We will be temporarily out of business and unable to fill orders during this period. There isn't a specific relaunch date, yet, but we assure the vast wargaming community that our design team will work deligently to return online as soon as possible.

There is a team of devoted TSATF wargamers who are also working on the 45+ anniversary edition of Dad's gaming classic.

Sergeants 3 thanks the wargaming community both nationwide and overseas for their continuing support, and above all, their patience during this difficult transition period.

Thanks to you ALL……the Flame will continue!

Jim

Well… cool enough, I guess!

I hope that works out. I'd like to be able to order more of the rules I'm missing.

Thanks for the announcement.

Okay I am going to be "the baddie".

To me "indefinite shut down" sounds more like "We're shutting down everything and don't know when or "IF" we will ever be back up again." Websites cost money and we know for a while now that money has been a VERY big issue with this.

There was no update on Christie getting resettled/moved. No one has known much of anything or heard anything but suddenly "There's a team working on this?"

Who?

The 40th anniversary edition is essentially out the window and dust in the wind, etc. etc. etc. So now we are looking at the 45+?

I'm at the point of saying, "just sell the rights to someone that can get them back in print, published, and on the market again."

Sometimes you have to just let go of stuff.

Y'all can now commence to calling me names and threating to run me out of town on a rail now….

I agree with Murphy. There has been too much radio silence. I sincerely hope that she can get back on her feet.

Well, that's it, then. A pity. A great rule set and a long tradition.

Col Campbell, I trust you'll let us know if there is ever a positive development?

Thanks.

Thanks for sharing Jim

Looking forward to seeing the 45th

"Shutting down the website…"
You should maintain the minimum to keep it open, lest the domain gets hijacked by n'ere do wells.

My read is that we are announcing what everyone already understood to be the case. There's a chance it migh5 come back, but don't expect that to really happen,

The world has truly made us cynical. I'm not judging, I felt it, too, when I read this. We've heard lots of messages like this that were just denial, optimism, and stringing us along. This really sounds like one of those.

But I'm choosing to be optimistic. It costs nothing. I caught the word "team". We know the whole franchise fell into the hands of people who couldn't handle it. Certainly there was a huge store of goodwill. Maybe a group coalesced that can put this all back together. It wouldn't be that hard.

It would be nice if they gave a date for the relaunch, but it's essentially a volunteer thing.

I paid for the 40th Anniversary Edition, as I bet a lot of us did. Maybe it will appear under a new name. A bunch of us have been hankering to order a couple more of the expansions. Let's hope it all comes together. This message is better than silence, right?

Best wishes from me!

The optimist pays in disappointment, Andrew. It's the pessimist who has nothing but pleasant surprises.

Me? I'm a skeptic. And the difference between "we hope to be up and running by New Years" and "soon" leaves a lot of room for skepticism. A "commitment" without any date is an insult to our intelligence.

Yeah, I paid for 40th too--and wrote off that money long ago. I'll buy a new edition if and when, but I won't pre-order again. For that, I rate an apology and a request that I cancel the debt, neither of which would have cost Christie Brom a dime, and neither of which any of us have received. We're not only not receiving product, we're not receiving common courtesy.

I've been stiffed by retailers before, and didn't much care for it. But being treated like a fool is worse.

I didn't prepay for 40th anniversary edition for the same reason I don't back kickstarters.

Oh, 40th was never a kickstarter, OFM. It was a gofundme, and most of us knew it. We didn't prepay because we urgently needed a new edition, but because Lori was hard up. It's the discourtesy since which galls.

For what it's worth, my experience with kickstarters has been good. No money is collected unless and until they have enough for the project and each case--between six and ten by now--the product has been as described and delivered reasonably promptly. I've more often been disappointed by pre-ordered books on Amazon, which are delivered on time, but are sometimes not worth reading, let alone keeping. The latest SM Stirling went almost straight into the discard box.

As I personally know the man given the TSTAF40 ms to edit by Lori Brom not long before her unexpected passing, I can say there is at least one person in the "team," and can infer at least one, perhaps two or more.

So, that much is fact. However, that admittedly doesn't in and of itself guarantee any timelines. Last I was told by one of "the team," the decision of just how the updated ms (plus likely other additions) actually was to be published is still in dispute. Also not a good sign.

However, there are a few actual people willing to die on this hill to make Larry Brom's legacy survive--indeed, prosper--or know the reason why.

And let's put to rest the well meant but unrealistic idea of someone "buying the rights" and publishing themselves. No one is going to pay anything like a fair price to Christy for a set of rules, plus supplemental material by the original author, some 45 years old.

And damn, damn, damn the crapulous snake who would just print his own ripped off version, and damn anyone else who would not drink coffee to stay up nights also to damn that lifeform.

TVAG

I've had people approach me online and ask me to scan TSATF expansions for them. I bet they asked a bunch of people, since that costs nothing, and I bet somebody was willing where I wasn't. And once it's out there, it's out there.

I probably have all the TSATF products I need, but I wouldn't mind buying a few more, if I could. I've tried. My money is sitting right here, ready to go. But here we are.

The pessimist pays their disappointment up front, and over and over. The optimist only at the end, and maybe not at all. And I know the odds are against me, but it really doesn't hurt very much to hope there's a new Sergeants3.com accepting my money in the new year.

And let's put to rest the well meant but unrealistic idea of someone "buying the rights" and publishing themselves. No one is going to pay anything like a fair price to Christy for a set of rules, plus supplemental material by the original author, some 45 years old.

"Anything like a fair price" would not make it worthwhile for the purchaser.
How many could he sell?
"Kids today" want a hard bound book with dozens of pretty pictures. Then they'll bitch and complain when it costs $50. USD

Yes, the rules are now 45 years old. Very dated. And we old timers still playing it love how dated it is.
Buying the rights "at a fair price" and then trying to sell it makes it non-viable.
Too many people paid for a copy years ago. I didn't. I figured I would buy a copy once it came out.
How many people would buy it who haven't already, in effect, bought in on a crashed Kickstarter, are left?

Yeah. Define "at a fair price", both ways.

You would have to see the sales numbers for at least the last three years to take a stab at a fair offer. Since the last anniversary edition, I am sure many more TSATF players have died than been replaced by new blood. No way to know what percentage of the fan base was lost due to mismanagement, bad luck, or whatever you want to call it. After the nostalgia spike in sales, I expect sales to flatline, then drop. For an investor to buy it, I think a fair market value is pretty minimal.

A fair price is what you can get for something in a free, open competitive market. Many people would like more, of course. But it's making no money for anyone right now.

Selling someone the right to print and sell a limited number of copies would give Christie some money and keep the set available to recruit new adherents. The longer it's out of print, the smaller the player base is going to be.

Economics 101:
"The value of a thing is what someone is willing to pay for it."
Duh!
Or is it Doh? 🤷

Anyway, when or if 40/45th anniversary edition comes out, I will check my jar of quarters to see if I can afford it.
I'm happy with 20th edition, when Larry RIP was in charge. I'm not in love with "flashy" updates.

I hope you're right, Andrew. But the longer it goes without a legal way to purchase TSATF or related material, the more piracy there will be. There is no legal distinction between starting a ball game on someone's lawn and starting one in a vacant lot--trespassing either way--but there's an important moral distinction between theft and making use of abandoned property. If Sergeants3 doesn't at least announce a planned start-up date in the near future--announcing before Christmas that they plan to be up by Easter, say--they're going to cross that line.

Great point, Robert. Product is obviously being copied now, but on a small scale. Once the product line appears to be abandoned -- and, it's not far from that now -- it will be scanned and distributed on a larger scale. Gamers will fill the void. And we know what the thought process will be.

I am not taking money out of anyone's pocket.

People want it.

I am helping keep Larry's legacy alive by keeping his rules available.

I know Christie had a lot to deal with, but a business cannot stay silent for a year.

I think it's been more than a year.

As for what the young people want, it's long been observed that young people and older people want different things, and the general movement is from flashy, proprietary, sci fi and fantasy, involved rules with lots of templates, tables, and special dice in youth, and more straightforward historical rules in maturity. So comparing TSATF to Mage Knight or collectibles or anything involving game-specific dice is apples-to-oranges. The big money is in selling color hard backs to kids, and I think they're more than $50 USD by now. But there will always be a marke, a much less remunerative market, for things like Sergeants3 sells.

TSATF gives an exciting game. It doesn't require a lot of paraphernalia. It's adaptable both to various eras and to your particular rules tweaks. It has what it takes to succeed in its niche regardless of its age.

But if you can't buy it only the pirates will have a copy.

I do not and have not played TSATF. But I have followed these threads loosely over the past year. Im just curious the game is so old and seems complete, why not just throw the pdf up on Wargamesvault, no hosting etc (a cut but no up front fee) and call it a day?

If concern is piracy, the site has the option to watermark every page with the purchasers name and date. My March Attack is such.

In a different but related thread, earlier this year I posted an open invitation for anyone connected with the Brom family/estate and Sergeants 3 (not sure what their legal arrangements with the Broms, actually) to contact me via PM or posting a reply on the board about opening a discussion about the possibility of a purchase of the publication rights to TS&TF and all related products. I have a genuine investor interest in backing a proposal to secure the publication rights to all the old, current, and future materials and the background in game design/publishing to make this happen (as well as having played these rules since 1980 in one form or another). I have yet to hear any reply but my offer remains open. I would like to end this limbo state of affairs if I can be in a position to do so legally (financially and creatively, I already am).

Creating decent PDFs and getting them up on Wargame Vault is a great answer, but it would take work. Undoubtedly there are not good files. That means scans (ick) or redoing everything. And there are dozens of products. I agree it's a great answer, and who knows, that's what they may do. But it's a lot of work.

The story told on the internet is that Larry Brom requested his family *not* sell the rights, and they appear to be honoring that. So while sale to a third party with the capacity to give the the entire product line the backing it deserves also sounds like a great answer, it's probably not going to happen.

I wonder if just *licensing* the material to a third party would be in keeping with his wishes. Not sure if that's been explored.

So we just have to keep our fingers crossed and hope that 2026 is the year for TSATF.

The story told on the internet is that Larry Brom requested his family *not* sell the rights, and they appear to be honoring that. So while sale to a third party with the capacity to give the the entire product line the backing it deserves also sounds like a great answer, it's probably not going to happen.

And, that is probably the main problem. Larry's "last wishes".

The potential problem with "last wishes" is that they can be locked into a time and place. I never met Larry but, as a father, I don't think he would have made that his last wish if he knew one daughter was going to die not too long after him, and the other was going to be destitute. I know I wouldn't have.

79thPA nailed it. IIRC, there are also no other children or grandchildren, so keeping it a family business is a short term prospect.

Game mechanics can not be copyrighted. A game title can be trademarked, but that requires "maintenance", both in terms of periodic legal filings and (crucially) active use in the marketplace by the owner. At this point the intellectual property value of TSATF is not looking terribly healthy. Besides the fact that the game largely appeals to nostalgia for people of a certain age, the blunt fact is that the longer this drags out, the more likely someone will else file for the trademark and use it in whatever way they see fit, including for an improved version of Brom's game. Christy should take whatever offer she can get, as soon as possible.

From sheer pragmatism that is probably right. But sentimentally, maybe not.

As for last wishes locking people into disadvantageous choices when circumstances change, absolutely. There's a reason wills are legally limited in this respect.

But at the end of the day, here we are. We can only make the best of the parts we can control. Hindsight is 20/20, etc. I just hope that whatever "team" means it includes some people will skills and energy, not just good intentions. And my money will be ready when… ok, fine if or when things get rolling.

I too understand that Christie feels obligated not to sell, and I can respect that. It's the unwillingness to license or cut someone in for a percentage to keep the games available and the overall vagueness which drives me to fury.

If she can get any sort of product out, I'll chip in some money, and I hardly ever play colonials. But she's making it impossible to help her.

Well, I'm not exactly waiting for Godot. I'm perfectly happy using the 20th anniversary edition.
I'm not exactly contemplating the existential absurdity of playing with toy soldiers as an adult.

I have been reading on the EN World D&D & Tabletop RPG News & Reviews website forums how Steve Jackson got his copyrights to "The Fantasy Trip" RPG back not too long ago after a legal campaign that established the right of a creator to reclaim intellectual property rights for a game that had been out of print for a certain length of time. Same as for trademark protections that lapse if the owner does not maintain them. Jackson spent some bucks on lawyers but once his rights had been determined, it didn't really cost anything to regain his properties as such. He was simply able to reclaim them and do with them what he wished. In his case, this has allowed The Fantasy Trip materials to be republished after a long period in limbo. ANY game designer could do something similar (I have an extinct Metagaming microgame from 1980 affected but am not inclined to pursue reclaiming it after all this time since I have no desire to revise it like I would want or any opportunity to have it republished). But I wonder that if TS&TF just fades away, at some point it will come into the public domain in some fashion, and then anyone might step in and do what they want with it and whatever family remains will get bubkes.

That's exactly why I warned above to not let the website lapse.

piper909: curious, which Metagaming microgames did you design?

TSATF will pass into the public domain, but it will be decades. More decades than I have left.

Quite right, Andrew. We will all be dead, and the vast majority of TMPer's children will be dead. It will be up to our grandchildren or great grandchildren, and they will probably be beyond caring.

Thank you, Gentlemen, for pointing out that, at least as long as someone holds a copyright, it will not enter Public Domain for something like 75 years (or, maybe closer to 65, at this point).

And, I appreciate Piper909's business like and respectful approach to the issue. However, if the copyrights are not for sale, there is nothing more to be said.

NO ONE is more frustrated at the moment than I that a key party in the question of how to proceed with bringing "TSATF45th" is holding out for what (from where I fidget) seems like an outright Miracle. So far as I know, sufficient funds to allow the next edition to be printed as in the past will not be floating in through the window.

Efforts are ongoing to encourage the "Key Party" to consider an alternative that leaves ownership/copyright private and intact, but it is not for me to predict how that may play out.

Another point well made (or so it seems to me), is that with the formal closing of the Sergeants 3 Website, it may be imperative that it return, ready to do business, ASAP, if only to prevent the Copyrights involved from "appearing "abandoned."

Also, the issue of people making and distributing photo or other copies of the current rules is indeed important. It's not a "delicate" issue because making and distributing such is called "Copyright Infringement," and there's no cute way around the fact that doing so is theft.

However, another compelling reason to reopen Sergeants 3 at the first opportunity is both to keep the rules in circulation, and avoid the infringement matter. That is, if anyone with honest respect for Larry Brom's legacy, and who wishes actually to help Christy in her insane situation, the open site provides a morally upright (if admittedly unusual) alternative.

Namely, every time a copy is made in any form (OCR scan, photo copy, etc), especially if for the purpose of providing it to another, the listed price for that item simply be paid to Sergeants 3. This would keep distribution of copies a profitable practice for the Copyright holder, and proves the honesty of the copyist.

Of course this would only work even for honest people if the Sergeants 3 Webstore is OPEN.

FOR PETE'S BLOODY SAKE, WHOEVER… Reopen tomorrow, if not yesterday!

And for those disparaging the idea that the "45th" is not author Larry Brom's own input and ideas, please recall that any/all elements of the next edition came from HIM--not Lori or some guy that floated by on a door during Katrina.

IF any additional material could appear in the "45th," it would be complementary, such as "800 Fighting Englishmen," and/or articles/interviews in which Larry expanded on how/why TSATF came to be the game it is.

It was corrupt idiots at Yaquinto who made new stuff up from whole cheesecloth to appear in one edition and a "supplement," not Larry.

IF, for the Love of Mike, the next edition escapes its current limbo, it won't be something cranked out just to cash in on an established name.

TVAG

She desperately needs to partner with someone who has the means to complete and produce the rules. Agreeable partnersuip terms should be able to be worked out whereby she retains partial ownership and could profit from the business.
Either that or or sell the rights outright. The option to keep it and not have the means to do anything is not rational.
Some people on this site have gone overboard to help her. As someone said there is a lot of competition out there for skirmish rules and before most of the S&F community is gone do something or the legacy will disappear.

Pat,

I realize that TSATF and Christie have fallen on hard times but I do have several nagging questions.

Would it be ethical to reopen the site, as if the business was still taking orders, when in fact it is not?

How is it the site continued to be online? There is usually money involved in creating and hosting a site. How was this done when they were without funds and insolvent?

Why were orders continued to be taken when the owners of the business realized the end goal was not going to happen?

Why was money sent to their business not put into a business account (like escrow) held until business was concluded/subscriptions were honored; and used for personal expenditures?

I hate to ask it but is Christie capable of ever bringing the latest iteration to production and distribution? Is she capable of continuing to run the business?

Hard times quite often befall all of us – but business commitments are business commitments. And it would appear many hard questions are either being skirted around, not being asked or ignored.

Dadster!

No, your points are all valid and should not be "skirted around, not asked or ignored."

However, I think the simple answer is that Christy was not involved in the business while it up and running, and with her commitment to CJDAware (her personal preoccupation after her Mother's death by that cause), she just wasn't "competent" to take over when the floor fell in. Not intellectually, just by experience, education, or, frankly, inclination.

Her situation over the last year, while stabilized for now, made anything regarding handling Sergeants 3 impossible, even if she was prepared to. Not even having access to a computer when she was on the streets for a while was certainly proof of her total unpreparedness to take the hand-off when her sister suddenly died.

By every measure, Sergeants 3 was/is responsible for every nickel that came in from the day Lori died and, presumably, orders ceased to be filled. What revenues that came in were, evidently, simply spent on food and shelter--literally.

Closing down the site is, however belatedly, the proper step so long as sales cannot be fulfilled. The drawbacks were mentioned above.

However, what can you or I do about it to fix things?

Not a plugged farthing's worth.

Assuming records were kept (they must have been, if only by the place that received funds), the ideal solution would be for Sergeants 3 (or, more to the point, "1") to refund or, better, fill those orders as new sales allow.

But none of us can control what will happen in that regard.

Lest we forget, the wisest words every uttered by a human being were, "Never, never, never, NEVER… sue poor people."

What can be recovered, no matter how valid the claim, now or ever? Please review the reference to a "plugged farthing."

It's not enough, but the only advice I can offer is to decide that any amount of money spent on their products since the collapse of Sergeants 3 has been, in effect, a "free will donation" to Christy's welfare, and let it go at that.

to Long Valley Gamer, your post is perfectly reasonable, and in a "reasonable situation," could be the way to go. But nothing about this whole disaster has met that definition.

TSATF/Sergeants 3 is not an enterprise that anyone can invest in and expect any financial return worth the effort. There is simply too little net value to be profitable to more than one person--Christy Brom. And by "profitable," I mean the occasional sale might allow her to buy dessert with a McDonalds's meal.

TSATF is her legacy, her birthright, but its financial value can only benefit her, and that only marginally.

That is not to disparage TSATF, its variants, and other titles by Larry Brom. Their "value" is as a beloved pastime to those of us who "get it," and have since 1979. Many of us want the latest, and last, expression of Larry's gift to the hobby, and perhaps some of the spin-offs we meant to buy but never did before the deluge. If we can buy what's made available, then we'll be satisfied, and Christy will see a little bit of income to take some of the edge off her penury. She will NOT be buying a car with those proceeds.

Finally, let's not forget that drowning people rarely have the clarity of mind to make decisions that actually benefit them in the long term. I don't and cannot speak for Christy, but I think there is an element of that in her… shall we say, "reluctance" to make the decisions those of us standing firmly on the beach can so clearly see.

TVAG

Pat,

Thanks for the reply and explanation – it does unmuddy the waters. I wish Lori well and better circumstances. Regarding the rules – sometimes we just have to let things go. There is a copyright so she should be ok, (no?) should she ever have the means and inclination to try again.

In the meantime – there are other rules and I have several older copies of TSATF. I do love the rules.

I couldn't agree with you more regarding seeking redress and I do understand the analogy of drowning people. Just a sad travesty the way things have gone.

Sorry I meant Christie not Lori.

Pound your head against the wall………….. As I said in the other chat PDF option fixes pretty much all of this. Assign an affiliated Print on Demand option and you have immediate income. Then the 45th might have some possibility and more importantly some cash influx. It is such a simple and easy option I'm stunned it isn't possible that she gets it! She could even work with an established site who would have the PDF copies to sell and she gets a cut of the sales while still holding the rights. If that isn't possible then walk away.

Thanks.

John

Preparing the PDFs isn't trivial. Especially if you're not handy with computers. But I suspect that if there are people helping Christie, and I hope and expect there are, they are convincing her of this and preparing the PDFs right now.

I'm just going to wait and see with goodwill and high hopes. And gratitude that I already own the rules, just in case.

I keep thinking of making a simple javascript colonial game. I should squeeze out the time for that. With Claude helping it might not be too tough…

Gentlemen. I met Larry Brom and Christy in 1997 in SC. I subscribed to the TSATF 40 edition and it is really sad what is happening to Christy. I doubt anybody can make money out of the 3 sergeants. It is just a hobby that we all enjoy. I understand her to not sell the rights to the rules. This is her family legacy. I would never sell anything from my family to an outside. Please remember she is the last survivor of the Brom family. Larry was an amazing gamer and a great guy. Let's leave him rest in peace. He would be disgusted at those attacks against his daughters. Christy just needs help to run the business and she seems to have it.
I am ok with PDFs. We all have a printer now.
Our gaming community is shrinking every year. We do not need more feuds.

Sylvain or Sly like Larry called me.

Good to hear from you, Sly! Great times when you were
here at Southern Front. Lost contact after you moved.
Hope you and yours are well.
Sam Lemonds

I thought it was long dead. I ordered and paid for "A Glint of Bayonets" earlier this year. But nothing was acknowledged and no rules delivered. Sent emails and no response. I wrote it off as one of those zombie businesses that no longer function.

Long delayed response to Gaius Rabirius above (cause this discussion is fading into the nether realms) --

I designed "Fury of the Norsemen", a MicroHistory published in 1980.

As an addendum to my other posts above regarding my interest in exploring options to the publication rights of TS&TF material, past, present, and future -- my proposals would NOT compromise the copyrights of the Brom family. The family would be owners of the copyright and receive royalties in perpetuity, in my ideal. My interest is in getting the rules in print again, available to the public, and able to generate self-sustaining income (or something reasonably close to that, by wargame standards). The family wouldn't have to sell away or give up anything, apart from publication rights that they are not exercising now anyway.

So many other rules sets have borrowed mechanisms and concepts from TS&TF already -- the original rules will have been nibbled to death by wargame piranhas before another generation is done, at this rate. Let alone the effects of scan swapping and other bootlegging, whether done maliciously or in good faith to help out another gamer who can't locate a copy. I am guilty myself of scanning supplements and errata to email to a fellow in Italy who simply could NOT find this material there. (I did not request or receive any remuneration for this.)

I realize I'm not a major player on these TMP pages like the rest of you are, but here's my two cents: I wish nothing but the best for Christy. My profession deals in large part with helping those who are down and out and I well know that life can go south fast. Things that were once important get sidelined and only those things that truly matter, like one's health or one's family, takes center stage. It would seem that this is what Christy has and perhaps still is experiencing, and we wish her and pray for only the best.

That said, I'm among those who have little expectation of the website ever coming back and/or the business resuming. I say this as one who not only pre-purchased the 40th Anniversary Edition, but also has over $100 USD of supplements ordered but never delivered.

The real tragedy here for us wargamers (besides, of course, the true suffering of the Brom family) is that it would seem that The Sword and the Flame will be lost to us forever. If anyone can get to Christy, I hope that that person communicates to her that, hey, we get it, that money is gone and it's okay if she doesn't move forward with the business; she shouldn't feel pressured to carry on if (or when) there's no more interest or ability to do so. But, please, then, for the love of Larry, please allow the ruleset and the associated intellectual property to either pass on to an interested party or to be invested in by a group of interest investors who will carry the legacy forward. I think that is a reasonable approach.

SF,There have been a lot of reasonable suggestions on this site from many well meaning people but hasn't seemed to take effect. The question is if the Brom S&F legacy is so important to Christy Brom why hasn't anything been done ? There are certainly many options out there. She could definitely use the income. Presently, the situation does't sound very rational…