| UshCha | 17 Sep 2025 7:42 a.m. PST |
I have been in a rather "emotional" thread about who should or should not do stuff and then touching on rules, especially about complexity vs Simplicity.
Much was about players turning up to conventions to play.
I thought about this as we have had a potential new recruit this week. It was interesting that they wanted to watch 4 or 5 games before wanting to actually play. This is interesting as US players don't mention this situation as it's not uncommon in the UK, well my little bit anyway. I thought back over the about last 30 years of conventions in the UK Midlands. I can only think of 1 or 2 where an individual came to play and learn over 30 years we have been presenting (we started doing shows around when STARGUNT II was published 1996). Is this untypical of the UK, probably not that much, as over the years the shows we participated in were quite big nationally (not the largest (Salute) but significant. There are participation games in some UK shows but they do not proport in general to a classic wargame and typically have very show specialized rules. Sometimes they get some attention but its not that rare for a whole show to go by without any takers. OR is it a national thing like US compared to UK or elsewhere? US and UK nationalities seem to be declared other nationalities are not evident for whatever reason, language for instance? I can't understand anything but English or American English which may hinder my appreciation. It may impact on the minimum level of simplicity of a set or rules if beginners have a few encounters before playing. What's your experience? |
 John the OFM  | 17 Sep 2025 8:41 a.m. PST |
As an American player and gamer, the concept of "putting on a show" is foreign to me.
Every convention game for me has been a "participation game".
The rules are almost always simple one or two pages. More complicated ones are saved for back home.
"On the road" I have presented GASLIGHT games where the participants signed up for tickets to play, or I would have enough units to allow walkups.
I did The Wyoming Massacre using slightly modified Sword and the Flame rules.
In each case the players only needed a turn or two to grasp. I started running GASLIGHT games at home when my son and I were introduced to the game at a convention. I immediately bought the rules the next day. I already had skirmish Zulu Wars British at home and a bag of the 20th Maine. So, I decided that the Union needed to invade Canada. As for the Wyoming Massacre, I had Rangers, Tories and Indians vs militia.
Very simple rules. In a FLGS, kids and adults who had never played before picked up the rules immediately. I |
| 79thPA | 17 Sep 2025 8:55 a.m. PST |
Mostly, we run different type of conventions. Our focus is on gaming. I don't need to know the rules or even see the rules before hand. Tell me how far I can move and shoot. If you can't explain the rules in 15 or 20 minutes, it is too complicated for a convention game. |
| Grelber | 17 Sep 2025 9:00 a.m. PST |
In US games, we often make some effort to identify which players have some experience with the rules or the period, assigning them to the more important units or the overall command, and letting the total newbies run a less important unit that won't get thrown in for a turn or two, so they have some chance to get an idea of how the rules work. Grelber |
| John the OFM | 17 Sep 2025 9:42 a.m. PST |
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| TimePortal | 17 Sep 2025 9:42 a.m. PST |
I have watched and talked to newbies for decades. US players tend to want to play not watch.
Best initial experience seems to be if their maneuver unit is a single object such as a tank, ship or plane. If on land a skirmish game gets good post game reviews.
Moving mass units gets less positive comments. Moves too slow is common.
My personal experience is that in 1977,I had been only a board gamer. I painted up two Prussian units that were destroyed in two turns while under the command of another player. I decided that I could do better and began playing "Tricolor".
I have been going to about 20 shows a year, though less now, since 1983 as a vendor.
Time Portal In business since 1983! |
| Oberlindes Sol LIC | 17 Sep 2025 10:05 a.m. PST |
My experiences match the US gamers who have posted above. |
| SBminisguy | 17 Sep 2025 10:23 a.m. PST |
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| John the OFM | 17 Sep 2025 10:45 a.m. PST |
If you're going to introduce a newbie to baseball, you don't begin with the Infield Fly Rule.
If you want to introduce a newbie to American football, you don't begin by explaining the difference between college and NFL pass interference. Or how many feet have to be in bounds on a catch. |
| UshCha | 17 Sep 2025 10:50 a.m. PST |
It does seem that our(UK) conventions are wildly different. Do most club players come from a US convention game. Our's do not typically in my UK experience. I will note our club has few interactions with the Warhammer hobby, it may be different for them in the UK. Or local "commercial" club/shop/venue seems almost completely un-historic (Fantasy/SI-FI etc.). so may be wildly different. There is no interaction between the clubs in our case. |
| John the OFM | 17 Sep 2025 11:03 a.m. PST |
I haven't been to a convention in years. In our club, there are two guys who attend conventions to play in tournaments. They don't have time to play in other games, let alone shop.
Two or three just go to shop. The only times I've seen "demonstration games" were when Uncle Duke put on his huge extravaganzas. Players were allowed to join up and participate, but in reality the games were as scripted as a WWE Wrestle Mania. I've seen him call back a move where the player didn't follow instructions. 🤷Is that "normal" for a Demonstration Game?
I get the impression that UK conventions are mostly one day, with the emphasis on the vendors. Correct me if I'm wrong. The Demonstration is mainly to showcase rules that are on sale.
In the past, I've spent three days, the whole weekend, at conventions to see how many games I could cram in. My personal record is 10, and most were simple. |
 Yellow Admiral | 17 Sep 2025 12:28 p.m. PST |
If you're going to introduce a newbie to baseball, you don't begin with the Infield Fly Rule.
If you want to introduce a newbie to American football, you don't begin by explaining the difference between college and NFL pass interference. Or how many feet have to be in bounds on a catch. I've been an American for 6 decades, and I don't know any of these things.  You'd have to explain them to me like I'm a preteen.
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| Yellow Admiral | 17 Sep 2025 12:40 p.m. PST |
I also agree 79thPA has the gist of American conventions, but:
I don't need to know the rules or even see the rules before hand. Tell me how far I can move and shoot. If you can't explain the rules in 15 or 20 minutes, it is too complicated for a convention game. Tournaments are the exception to this. You are unlikely to be taught the rules if you enter a tournament, and you certainly aren't going to win without a lot of experience in the rules used by the tournament. |
| Yellow Admiral | 17 Sep 2025 12:51 p.m. PST |
I'm an American and I've been going to conventions for 30 years. Once I quit playing tournaments, I started using convention games as a great way to get a free playtest of a set of rules or period. I've saved a lot of money and time over the decades by discovering in a convention game that it's not anything I like enough to pursue, without purchasing a single figure or book for it. Of course, I've also been deeply afflicted by the opposite… more than one of my collections were launched because a period or set of rules I never cared about turned out to be a really fun gaming experience. - Ix |
| TimePortal | 17 Sep 2025 2:06 p.m. PST |
As you can tell, there is not a singleconcept followed in USA.
For example, the Florida convention that I am going to next week will have different factions running games. The Jacksonville group who wear matching vests will be running games but you will see them playing other games as well. Richard Borg's playtesting group will be running different games from the Command and Colors series. In the Spring show, it was Crusaders. This Fall, I suspect it will be Hoth.
The Seekrieg are next to them in front of my booth.
Several companies will run demonstrations such as the Blood and Plunder rules.
There are a number of tournaments taking place in the smaller adjacent rooms.
Plenty of options for players. |
| robert piepenbrink | 17 Sep 2025 2:36 p.m. PST |
US is almost all participation games, but I think effectively they divide into three sub-groups.
1. "Only for players familiar with [Rules]." (Often so stated in events lists. This is implicit in all tournaments.)
2. "Simple rules will be taught." (Roughly 79PA's 15-20 minutes. Again, often so stated in the convention events list.)
3. All others. This generally amounts to being handed a QRF and being told when you're doing something wrong. For myself, I try to stick to 2) unless I really am familiar with the rules or someone asks me because they're short players. Mind you, I saw surprisingly good results this summer with rules I judged too long for convention play, with a short brief and pairing rules newbies familiar with the period with veteran players. Overall--and I have attended two or three British conventions--US system gives players more play, obviously, and a way to familiarize themselves with rules before committing. But when you watch a game at a US convention, you're not generally seeing the rules at their best. Frequently the game is larger than optimum, whether to show off an army of accomodate more players, and too many of the players are green, further slowing down the game. But with a short simple set of rules, you can have a blast! |
| John the OFM | 17 Sep 2025 3:16 p.m. PST |
I had one game where I was just wandering around, just looking.
A guy looked up at me, hopeful.
It's an American Revolution game!
Oh, good. Just my cup of tea.
I sat down. "Okay, what do I do?"
"Come on here, and go up this road to the fort."
"Okay, but where are the Loyalists?"
"I'll tell you when you get close."
So, I marched up the road.
Suddenly, he sprang an ambush. I lost 30% in the first volley and failed an immediate morale test. I was slightly peeved. "That wasn't much of a game. I didn't have a chance, and I followed your instructions. I didn't have a chance!"
"Yes! Just like in Real Life!" Yes. That wasn't much of a "game", but the kind of experience that would certainly sour a newbie to wargaming. But, I was a cynical bitter old soul, who played Diplomacy by mail.
So, I just walked away, wondering just why he thought that was a good convention game. Perhaps, that was exactly what he wanted. 🤷 Some sadistic  do think that way. |
| 14Bore | 17 Sep 2025 4:01 p.m. PST |
Only played 1 convention game that had rules no one ever played being knew so the GM and assistant had to walk everyone through the whole game.
If that's the presentation your meaning.
The other games are participation games almost always |
| UshCha | 18 Sep 2025 2:14 a.m. PST |
I did perhaps failed to note in the UK ther are lots of comptition events, but I class tyhem as a diffrent aspect of the hobby., a few are a mixture of both, and my experience on this is very small, however to me (UK only), the two are more seprate than they were. Competition are taken seriously and a newbie not knowing the rules to a reasonable extent would be well out of his depth. Interesting that the respondents to this thread seem to be UK or US only |
 Saber6  | 18 Sep 2025 6:00 a.m. PST |
One other note: Many convention games are only oppurtunity to see new rules, periods and players that many of us get. The 'Club' is not that common in the US, generally it is through convention games that I have even found them. If my convention experience had been 'look, don't touch' I probably would not have the collection I have today |
| John the OFM | 18 Sep 2025 8:35 a.m. PST |
There certainly seems to be "national types" of wargaming conventions.
Are there any outside the US or UK? |
| 79thPA | 18 Sep 2025 8:41 a.m. PST |
I think the club is more defined in the UK than in the states. Here, we seem to be more along the lines of loose confederations of friends, with cross pollination between the various friend groups. |
| robert piepenbrink | 18 Sep 2025 9:51 a.m. PST |
As 79th says. Miniature wargamers are a much smaller percentage of the US population then UK wargamers, and US population density is also far less. And not being blessed with Britain's post-WW2 housing restrictions, most of us have a basement, a guest room or a garage where we can put on a game without a clubroom. Fewer wargamers within, say, half an hour or an hour's travel of a theoretical club room, and less pressure to have such a room. So Bob, Rick and Louis all play CLS at Fred's, but they each play other games elsewhere with different friends. |
