"Alternatives to Figure Removal" Topic

Hello

I have now been through the gauntlet of pretty much any set of rules with battalions I can get my hands on. I realize I much prefer the older style rules. The ONLY thing I do not like is figure removal. The pros of these sets absolutely outweigh this con, but I am thinking about ways around it – perfection. I have scoured TMP and seen most of the alternatives, some are okay.

Shot in the dark, but possibly worthwhile – I am pinging the gallery for any clever ideas I may not have thought of to depict it instead.

Roster so far is not ideal but winning. The main downside is having to track units. I do this for AoS and it is fine, but ships with bases are more easily and handsomely labeled. I digress.

I also thought of "currency" chits. Glass stones and rather than pile them up, denominations of 1,2,3,5 so on. So majority of the time you only have one glass stone next to a battalion.

Movement trays with a 5mm die are out because of formations.

I wonder if there are clever ways of doing this that I have not seen that are temporary?

Basically hate figure removal and hate table clutter slightly less but hate is still appropriate word.

May be a dead thread but worth a shot. If you have used anything I have not thought of please chime in. If you've used a roster with multiple players or in a con scenario, what did your experience lead you to change and make more user friendly?

Thanks.

The Old Way. Pass a toothpick (or possibly a length of green pipe cleaner) between your castings. Those to the right of the toothpick as the stand faces are alive. Those to the left are casualties. Remove all the toothpicks as you put the castings away after the game. I was taught the method in 1969, and was still using it in games this summer. Works for as big as castings get, and as small as they get until they start getting cast in blocks.

Thanks. That isn't bad and had not run into it before. I also do not like casting caps because I use a smaller scale with the same footprints (so four castings usually represent one in 15mm). But this method of marking by area instead is workable and something to chew on.

We use a small die for the units showing number of casualties – the rules sets we use don't call for figure removal, mostly

Dial with a casualty figure and flocked as other figure bases.

I just use small colored blocks to mark casualties and morale state. Since a typical battalion only requires 4 hits before it becomes shaken (one step away from rout) the table doesn't get very cluttered.

We use small rings to mark casualties.

Long ago I realized that numbers (ie: number of men in a unit; trying to find at what point a unit ceases to exist due to casualties, frontages, etc) is NOT the road to follow. It is too linear (example: Veteran rated troops ALWAYS rated as "5"- regardless of nationality). The factors that go into the point where a unit cannot function are too variable and trying to account for them is futile. "Which ones are more important than others; acting as a commander, which ones can you influence once battle has begun, etc, etc, etc.In application, (just like in the real world) you have to do your best with the situation dealt you. To boil it down, the unit's leadership's ability to maintain control over the men to accomplish their ordered task is what really is happening.

Getting back to the OPs question, I suggest that leadership ability can be lost and regained but the rules must account for the efforts of the unit's leaders (either they were successul regaining some control or not) during the timeframe of a game turn. Also, combat , when viewed as unit against unit, can make the game go faster without looking up 101 modifiers.

That is what I have been working on for the past 20+ years because I got fed up with wonky results in many games and heaven forbid we had a melee to resolve while the other gamers went out for pizza! The thought that simulations are impossible has been falsely perpetuated upon us for at least 50 years! We have to simulate many things but the processes must be modelled if we expect realistic results.

Command and Control is a process- NOT a radius!!!! It consists of 5 elements: 1- Commanding element; 2- Commanded element; 3-Downward flow of communication (we do all that pretty well); 4-Upward flow of communication (We suck at that!); and "friction" at all levels. (Why do gamers feel they must send orders every turn? Units should be acting to accomplish their assigned orders regardless how far away they are from the higher command!!! (In many cases, how would that higher commander even know the local situation of his subordinate unit(s) without that upward flow of communication?

Well, thanks for reading this far. After 7 playtests in 3 States over the past 10 months, I keep refining my rules to keep a turn moving fast without needing charts.Those refinements have been incorporated from my playtesters and am now nack having fun in my games (even though I mainly watch the gamers exercise their command and control.)

Ducking back into lurker mode but I suggest we look at how we do things in our games, why and why some factors are more important than others, etc.

Hmm, thinking to myself, outside of skirmish games I played my last figure-removal game in 1986.

You can also use bases with pebbles or some other refuse of war to keep track of casualties.

I have been using some type of Roster System since 1958.

I use numbered wargame counters.
I have the baackground color be the same as my gaming mat and the numered a bit subdued. Doesn't show up all that much.

There's an example on the left hand side of this picture

Saw somewhere long ago about putting small rubber bands over the figures to denote casualties (think of it as playing 'ring toss' with your figures… ;-) As you can find them in multi-colors these days, you could also have each color be a different value. Easy to remove afterward, too. Check your local dollar store… ;-)

I use rings, but this is for 20mm figures and only to track casualties fewer than mounted on a base which is removed when they're all lost. If one is determined to record casualties using some form of marker system, and you want that to be inconspicuous, it seems purpose built basing is the answer, but re-basing is the gamer's curse.
How, calls for some prototyping; I was thinking of a magnetic strip under the base texturing (if you texture bases?) with small depressions in the texturing that would allow a small steel ball-bearing (or rare-Earth magnet) to rest securely in place. The ball would then be moved along the rank of figures to indicate how many were lost. The ball could be disguised or simply assumed to be a cannonball in the horse and musket era. This is just the first idea that popped up thinking about it.
Perhaps a better version would be a magnetised base and thin steel sheet, half-textured with a discrete arrow and half left to slip under the magnetised figure base. The arrow can then be moved to track round the figures to indicate losses. Both of these become difficult if you move figure bases around when units change formation.
I reckon there's no end of potential solutions but without knowing the scale, basing system and willingness to re-base it's pretty moot.
BTW what is you old-school rule-set of choice?

The base way I know to not take casualties off the battlefield is using "Carnage and Glory" rules. I played in several games of them at Historicon for the first time and they were a revelation. Few markers and no figure removal. We are seriously considering them.

I just use markers: tile spacers and/or some other stuff unobtrusive custom casualty markers. Little dice work fine too.

If you use large magnetic sabot bases, you can stick your markers on them AND show different formations too.

Can't see how 'formations' stop you using a die to mark losses. An alternative I use is a small base with multiple small dice to record all aspects of a unit's status – also has a unit's stats on it. Same size as one of the unit's bases.

To be honest the trick is to train yourself to ignore the clutter and just see the troops – it is easier than you think. The 'clutter' is only used when you need it, ignored otherwise.

I do use Martin's idea too – a label attached via the magnetic base to protrude behind the base. Only problem with that is that you have to pick up the base to add or change the label.

Magnetic bases & labels do add a lot of possible solutions if you are inventive.

Comercial "dial" bases with a figure/ horse/Gun barrel/ wheel on and flocked. Generally there right nationality etc from a Greek hoplite/ Viking/ Royalist/ Austrian/ Orc etc. That is for 20/28mm. For 15mm, plastic washers,

Tally Ho!

Thanks for all the replies. Plenty of great advice and perspective. Lots of ideas and realizing I am probably being too particular. Still don't want figure removal but these various clever markers, there is something in there.

GilfasFacit – What I meant and probably poorly worded is I like movement trays (with an insert for a die) but they dont work with formations.

BillyNM – Valmy to Waterloo. I like any of the older rules under the Empire unmbrella but so far it is far superior. I also like Legacy of Glory, but I would just play ESR at that point. For my taste ESR is the only rulesset worth playing post 2000 and it is great, but the sacrifice of scale and formations make it less than for me personally. Some day when I have more time I'd like to port Valmys cavalry, artillery, and scale to ESRs flow blending the two into a house set and I think that is my perfect set. But time is what it is and I am not done modelling.

I have always removed stands when casualties. But until the stand is gone cap the figures lost. Maybe the small rubber bands I see at some convention games, or lots of bookkeeping ( which I do as well anyway.

I use d4 dice as markers. You can use numbers for casualties and colors can be morale or disorganized status.

Never played Valmy to Waterloo – intrigued, are they still available anywhere?

Depending on what you are attempting to represent:

Drum battery/buglers:
- Presence behind the right-flank: Normal functioning – NCOs are able to control soldiers under command of officers.
- Presence behind the left-flank: Some disorder – NCOs getting the soldiers back into dressing, etc.
- Absence – Chaos and confusion – NCOs have lost control of subordinates; officers shouting commands into the void.

Ammunition cart/budge barrel/commissaries:
- Presence means they can fire normally;
- Absence means their firing is impaired.

Miniature rocks (to stumble across):
- No rocks = perfect
- Many – represents how many turns to regain normal functionality.
- Fire shock/canister = 3 rocks
- Volley fire = 2 rocks
- Desultory enemy fire = 1 rock
- Rallying removes one or many rocks

Brigade commander:
- In front of brigade = perfectly perfect
- Behind right flank = good
- Further to left = non-perfection
- Behind left flank unit = problemos

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The main issues to address are:
- What happened last move (rocks)
- What can I do with them this move (ammo, order, capacity)