"Loyalists Provindicals in the South red coats" Topic

Ugh. This has turned into a nightmare. So, I thought I came across a few units that when shipped down South they switched to red coats faced with blue. Namely, the NJ Volunteers, Delancy's, and the Prince of Wales. But, now I was told the NJ guys were red faced green, and everyone else a mixed bag.
The only unit that I can confirm with red coats and blue facings are the Royal North Carolina troops.
I'm looking at the 1780 period, so if anyone has some insight I would love to get your input.

They are Loyalists; do whatever you want and don't worry about it. Delancy is reported to have either green or blue cuffs depending on the source/year.

The New Jersey Volunteers are described by multiple contemporary sources as red faced blue from 1780 – 1783.

The Regular Crown units were rather jealous of their facings. Not only would the 4th be furious to see any other regiment wearing blue facings, but the 5th wouldn't even consider polluting their facings with Blue!

But, that was the Regulars. Facings for Provincial units had facings handed out with whatever cloth was handy. Bear in mind that these Regiments were never envisioned to be permanent.

The 84th Foot, the Royal Highland Emigrants, had 2 battalions. One in Canada, one in the South. Never did the Twain meet. They were kind of sort of On the Establishment, but didn't last past the end of the War. They wore blue facings, by the way. I would consider them Provincials. 🤷

It would be Madness to curate the facings of Provincials. Our club's unofficial motto is "They are who I say they are."
Are you seriously considering painting all 5 battalions of deLancey's regiment? 24 figures strong in 28mm? How many ever served together?
By the way, Mollo made an educated guess when he gave them white pimp hats. And quite a few following uniform books copied Mollo. As did I, when I painted them using Hinchliffe Continentals with Green Stuff plume. 😄

My informal guide to painting Provincials. Use "Continental" figures, with no lace. Avoid 1768 Warrant figures. Use fancy drummers only if the Colonel was wealthy. There's a war on, you know.

Of course, you have to paint the Provincial Volunteers of Ireland (Roman Catholic Volunteers) because they had a wealthy Patron who designed their own uniform.

How many Provincial regiments will you realistically need?
Plain coat, no lace, slouched hat. His Majesty's Generic Provincial Regiments.
Save yourself some grief. Make up generic units. If you must have flags, which you must, use a plain Union for the King's Colour.

The chaos of the American Revolution is evident in the .uniforms. The variety of coats, hats, facing colors and trousers is clear.
Commander purchased or establishment,( regular or provincial, continental, State, local militia and the Use of captured material all affected units in the field.
The suggestion to use continental castings for Provential units is not a bad idea. However the Patriots were known for dyeing captured coats especially after Saratoga. So using British line for Patriot militia and State troops is also an option.

Specifics on unit comments. A Hessian officer in 1783, commented DeLancy New York Loyalists wore green facings. In the Southern campaign they are noted as having blue facings. The comments on variety of head gear was also intriguing.

Many of the "brown" Continental coats were red British coats dyed with blue dye. This gave a rather ghastly shade of brown. Of course tailors removed the facings and linings first.

Certainly the coats captured at sea by privateers were either dyed or used as is.

However, the uniform coats were considered the property of the soldier. The famous "stoppages" from his pay went towards his uniform.
So, I would be surprised to see British uniforms taken from POWs for that reason. They were not considered British regimental property. Besides, if you take away their coat, you're then responsible for clothing them. 🤷
Grenadier caps, were however considered Regimental property, but not normal hats.

I'd fuss about the five regiments of the Provincial Line--Queen's Rangers, British Legion, King's American Regiment New York Volunteers and Volunteers of Ireland. Those were regarded as real permanent regiments. Everyone else got whatever was handy.

OFM, POWs were not stripped as a matter of policy. (I'm sure someone had his shoes stolen.) But American privateers sometimes captured substantial quantities of unissued red coats being shipped over. Those were fair game, and a better man with uniforms could tell you which American regiments received them.

TimePortal, I don't doubt some dyeing took place, but at least on Continental regiment wore unabashed red, and most Continental brown didn't come by dyeing red. The French sent over brown coats, and it was easy to produce brown cloth in North America by way of walnut shells. Remember captured uniforms from the Saratoga campaign would often have been blue already.

I think OFM said brown, which was a common early war uniform color for the Patriots. My research found many dyed uniform came out closer to black than blue. So many of the dyes varied in shades of blue mainly by vendor.
I will look up my article on Patriots and check the unit numbers. Currently, I only have on my table the Loyalist special issue.

The very dark blue though a few deserter posters said dark blue or black.
I tend to agree with OFM on the brown which was a favorite early war color. Before 1779, Brown coats were worn by 44 (30%) of Patriot units. Another 10 units are listed as having Light Brown coats. No units are cited as wearing buff or tan. Gray is another color that may be caused by dyeing with seven nits are reported as having gray.

I must confess that back in the day I bought every bag of Old Glory "Continental" figures. Basically 1768 Warrant but with no lace, and varying trousers, breeches, equipment and hats. Between normal Continentals and Loyalists, I'm still using them up. I also add in militia and hunting shirt figures.

There MIGHT have been a plan to give each deLancey battalion a different facing color, but maybe not. It would be cool if there had been. But, being a gamer and painter, I firmly believe in my favorite phrase from the Warrants, "As the Colonel shall decide." Go nuts reading conflicting sources, bite the bullet, pick what you like and don't look back. "Oh? You think that's wrong? Prove it! I've done my research!" 🤷

I might add that I painted the 78th, Fraser's Highlanders in the FIW in the brown and red sett, because I liked the plate in the Company of Military Historians book. It was probably wrong. And the Highland company of the Queen's Rangers? "The tartan is McNabb!"! Sure it was, buddy. But that's how mine are painted.

Speaking of the Queen's Rangers, it seemed to be a collection of amalgamated Loyalist companies that were thrown together. "Normal", light, rifles (!), grenadiers, Highlanders, dragoons and hussars. All in one unit! It would not be wrong to call them The Queen's Legion. But they weren't. 😄 Yes. I have them all in my own bloated Queen's Rangers.

I don't believe any of us are under oath when we paint our units. Touching up this evening my 1815 Hanoverian Osnabruck Landwehr Battalion--as close as I could come to a Knoetel painting--not uniform plate--of their advance at Waterloo. Do I believe they were quite that snazzy in real life? Probably not. But I have ancestors from Osnabruck, they look good on the tabletop and have always fought well for me, and anyone who wants to argue the point can hop in a time machine and visit Waterloo--or argue with Knoetel.

I've also been known to do a little fast shuffle to line up the field of my Continental regiments' standards with their facing color--something Washington ordered, but struggled to achieve (we think.)

What's the point of playing horse & musket if we can't have good-looking toys?

Queen's Rangers infantry companies wore green with black facings, green changed to white pants. In the north wore a tricorn with white hat band, when sent South 1780 changed to Light Infantry cap. Notations often refer to the infantry companies as rifle companies.
The Grenadier company was dressed as rifle companies but wore an oversized light infantry cap? With crescent moon device. The light infantry or rifle company always wore light infantry caps.
Highland company (1777) wore green jackets with kilts
Hussar troop (1778) green jackets with black collar and cuffs. They wore a fur cap with green bags. Though I saw one reference to a mirliton. crescent moon device on headgear.
The three Light Dragoon troops (all added in 1780) wore Tarleton caps but same jacket as hussars.
In 1781 a three pounder gun was attached at the skirmish on June 26 1781.
Their combat strength averaged 297 in north to upper 300-400 in the south. Due in part to the additional 90 Light Dragoons added in 1780.

Thank you for your input.
Fortunately, my Volunteers of Ireland were the Perry's casts and those rock. I also took advantage of the Perry's Queen Rangers.
This had come up because I am finishing up my OG pile and I am getting mixed results (and some really nasty comments from people not here) about "the proper facings.
And when I start researching I keep seeing different notes. So, enough to go nuts on. The only one I am sure of is that the SC Royalists would have had yellow facings.
The input here is valuable. Thanks alL!

ON the interesting uniform front for Patriots, the NC regulars in the beginning of the war had brown coats with a mix of gray, red, green, and pinkish. Only like 600 of each but the pink ones never made it…

In Cornwallis's papers there is a mention that they had highlander pants and Russian Twill coats they could issue out to Provincials. However, they never mention who got them if ever distributed. Also, there were 60 "French muskets" that Ferguson wanted issued to militia which Cornwallis (paraphasing) "What the heck are you talking about? Those are good weapons. Don't give them to militia as they will end up in the enemies hands" Ferguson is also noted as saying that all Provincial officers should be issued pikes (in the Charleston armoury) to free up firearms. Cornwallis plainly said "No"

Whenever some omodhaun gives you grief about "proper facings", tell him where to go and what to do when you get there.
You did your research, you reconciled conflicting sources, made your choice and put in the work. "As the Colonel shall decide…"
Ask him/them to buy the "proper" figures, paint them up "correctly" and then give them to you.

Rudeness on your part is indeed called for, since "they" were rude to criticize you in the first place.
Oh, and tell them to get off your lawn.

ON the interesting uniform front for Patriots, the NC regulars in the beginning of the war had brown coats with a mix of gray, red, green, and pinkish. Only like 600 of each but the pink ones never made it…

Good call. "What year?"
I've said before that the 23rd Foot, a VERY REGULAR regiment, had at least 4 different uniforms, from Boston in 1775 and before, up to 1781 in the South. Continental uniforms are even more disparate.

"Pinkish" facings could very well be due to red fading in the weather.
Some British regiments at Waterloo had been issued brand new coats and belts before the campaign. Sitting in the heavy rain the night before caused the dye in the red coats to bleed into the white belts. Pink!

My Continental regiments have a mix of "proper" uniforms, with militia and hunting shirts, often in the same stand.

Patriot forces in North Carolina were volunteer, militia, Continental regulars and State regulars. The State Regulars wore dark brown coats and red facings in 1776. One Regiment wore Drab with blue facings in 1776. Another regiment wore dark brown with white facings in 1776.
The 3rd Continental ? wore frock coats. I saw no specific color for fringe.
In 1778 all State regular regiments wore blue coats with red facings.
State raised militia from 1779-81 wore frock coats dyed gray and a mix of fringe. They wore a mix of caps and hats both cocked and unlocked.
Continental units, early in the war I have listed by name rather than state. The 1779 regulation authorized uniforms was blue coats with mid-blue facings.

Rudy, you are treating what the notoriously niggardly (Am I allowed to use that word? 😱) state legislatures and Continental Congress decreed as reality. 🤷
I would be surprised if those regiments had even half of the mandated uniforms.

Got to agree with the OFM. Nothing is as it is written! As far as I can see Government Tartan, for example; is anything in green, blue, and black. I use different shades for each battalion of it I paint. As for Americans; " Anything goes". Walnut Shells/Husks, don't dye things brown. They dye things a greeny-black, that fades to grey. Butler's Rangers had white facings. Rant over.