"What if CSA had total control over its claimed territories" Topic

… from the start, as well as Kansas?

"What if Bleeding Kansas went in favor of the South, with Kentucky also fully joining the CSA when the Civil War broke out? Would it prolong the war to a sizable degree, or affect the longterm outcome?…"

See here

link

Armand

But the CSA DIDN'T.
I'm very strict about "what if?" questions.
First you have to posit how this could happen. If you do not, it's merely wishful thinking.

Simply more irrelevant clickbait. 🤷

Kentucky was split, the governor being pro-South and the legislature supporting the North. What finally happened was that Leonidas Polk invaded western Kentucky, the North retaliated, moving their own troops into the state, and generally doing a better job of latching onto key Kentucky real estate. Even so, it was well into 1862 before the Union grip on Kentucky was firm.
I suppose for John's purposes, you can transfer Polk to Virginia, replacing him with an officer more willing to obey orders to stay out of Kentucky, or at least willing to wait until a coordinated move into Kentucky could be launched.
You still get a state that supplies troops to both sides.

Grelber

They still would have lost, perhaps a bit more slowly but the end was inevitable the minute they attempted to engage in a civil war.

Agree with the above – having 100,000 or so more troops that you couldn't arm, equip or maybe even feed would not have materially altered the war's outcome

I might point out that the South "seceded" from a larger political entity, just as the 13 colonies in an earlier time, rather than fight for control of the larger entity. The English fought a "civil" war but the South did not. Nevertheless The American Civil War has become the common term for The Late Unpleasantness Between the States.

Thanks

Armand

"I'm very strict about "what if?" questions."

Of course you are. Hence if "What if" (ie: "hypothetical") questions don't meet your standards they are tossed out with yesterday dinner scraps.

"First you have to posit how this could happen. If you do not, it's merely wishful thinking."

Says who? A question was asked. Last time I checked on hypotheticals, there was no rule on requiring how the situation could happen. Now if they wanted to include it, they can and we could decide if it's a silly thing.

Now that that has been settled and OFM has his medications…

1: I don't see Kansas going Southern. Maybe some people aiding the Southern cause, and the guerillas/border ruffians, etc. But Kansas was too far into the Union to go CSA. Missouri on the other hand…

2: Kentucky was the nightmare. There was absolutely NO way that Kentucky could have remained neutral or even untouched during the war. As Lincoln himself said "We might now have God on our side, but we MUST have Kentucky!" Just look at the geography alone. Kentucky borders seven states, of which two were Confederate. If Kentucky had gone fully to the CS side, then the CS forces on an offensive out of Kentucky now threaten, easily (Cincinnati) and Ohio as well as West(ern) Virginia, along with Indiana and Illinois. As well as controlling the Ohio River, threatening Evansville Indiana, holding the critical junction of the Ohio/Wabash/Mississippi river areas. It was crucial to the Union that Kentucky be held.
The worst thing the CS could have done was put their one of their most incapable commanders in charge of Kentucky operations (Bragg), although Kirby Smith helped him some, and the tactical victory at Perryville wasn't exploited. Easiest way to do it was to put Breckinridge (A Kentucky Native), and a combined effort of Forrest and Morgan to do sweeps, and secure the main areas.

To understand just how critical Kentucky was, one only has to see just how much of a fuss Morgan's ride across the river from Brandenburg made to Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio…

Now that that has been settled and OFM has his medications…

I self medicate. Genny Cream Ale and Yuengling. Sometimes I even mix them!

Thanks Murphy… quite interesting…

Armand

If Kentucky joins the CSA and western Virginia is kept in check and Johnny Reb sits on the Ohio River, imagine an aggressive, reverse-Vicksburg campaign strategy where the CSA moves up the Ohio and Allegheny rivers to Lake Erie to cut the Union states in two. Fascinating.

As the Spartans replied to Philip of Macedon, "If".

Thanks Piper909 … interesting indeed…

Armand