"Was Piquet's dragoon brigade at Quatre Bras?" Topic

Despite reading both Mike Robinson's book on Quatre Bras, and Andrew Field's French perspective, I cannot find any mention of this brigade of L'Heritier's 11th Cavalry Division, formed of the 2nd and 7th dragoon regiments. Mark Adkin suggests that this brigade lagged behind on the 16th and did not arrive on the field until very late in the day. However…..

…..I have read two accounts that suggest that the Duke of Brunswick was shot by one of a group of dismounted dragoons, in the late afternoon or early evening (so probably between 5:00pm and 6:00pm, shortly before Kellerman's charge). I have seen this event dismissed as perhaps mis-identification of skirmishers from either a chasseur a cheval (possibly the 1st, wearing "classical" helmets) or a lancer regiment (similar headgear), but would elements of either of these units be skirmishing on foot? I thought that only dragoons were trained to do this. Could they have been an advanced element of the brigade?

I would be interested in anyone's thoughts on this.

Historique du 7e Régiment de Dragons
By René Marie Timoléon
Cossé-Brissac 1909 link
says only a single Cuirassier Brigade from the III Cavalry Corps was present until the evening.

Cannot find an equivalent History for the 2e Regiment de Dragons.

My research for my re fight suggests that the dragoon element of the Brigade were not involved in the action.

Eye witness accounts of ‘dragoons' were probably unamoured cuirassiers .

Best wishes,

Chris

Thanks, guys. OK, so it looks like the dragoon brigade was absent.

Someone, I think it was Dawson, recently debunked the myth of the "unarmoured" 11th Cuirassiers; also, why would such "specialist" troops be wasted on skirmishing – and dismounted, at that?

It looks like the "dragoon impostors" may have been from either the 1st Chasseurs a Cheval, or either of the Line Lancer regiments. Though what THEY would have been doing on foot is still puzzling.

Oh, well…..

Writing in 2015, John Franklin states that the 2e Dragons lost 26 killed and wounded at Quatre Bras. Paul Dawson mentions two men lost from the 7e in a 2018 book. The records of the 2e Dragons were undergoing restoration in 2018 and may well be available now.
John Franklin may not be very familiar to TMP readers, but he demonstrated careful and thorough research via a number of publications around the time of the Waterloo bicentennial. Paul Dawson is likely to be more of a well known name.
There was a lengthy discussion of this on TMP in 2015.
As an aside, I recall posting (amongst other things) a scale image of dismounted dragoons and lancers suggesting they could easily be mistaken for one another.

Link to the main discussion referred to, above:

TMP link

Many thanks Allan,
An interesting link which contains some pretty uncivilised exchanges along with some useful information.
Ian

Thank you, Allan – I had completely forgotten about that thread (despite having contributed a couple of posts to it!). So, there's an hour of my life I'll never get back – and a painful reminder of why I left this forum for several years…..

Anyway, I think, on balance, that I like the idea of the dismounted dragoons being present, and quite possibly being responsible for the demise of the Duke of Brunswick*. If nothing else, it will provide me with a role for the sprues of dismounted, post-Bardin Perry plastic dragoons in my collection!

* By the way, did John Franklin ever come back with all the extra detail he said he had found on that matter? Was it published on here, or somewhere else, or did it appear in one of the several books he was writing and/or contributing to at that time? (Asking for a friend, obviously ;)) !)

Ian – Agreed!

Baron – Don't know, but I will look into it.

Regards
Allan

Thank you.

Baron von Wreckedoften II
Quatre Bras: I cannot find any mention of this brigade of L'Heritier's 11th Cavalry Division, formed of the 2nd and 7th dragoon regiments.

Difficult to see how they could have got involved with the Duke of Brunswick.

As you are no doubt aware, the cavalry units you mention were part of Kellermann's III Cavalry Corps. Reille's II Corps fought the initial battle.

In particular, the Duke of Brunswick on the Allied left under Orange was shot by musketry shortly after the 2pm, while charging at Jérôme's advancing 6th (infantry) Division. His Hussars were then chased by Piré's French cavalry (2nd Cavalry Division). These troops were doing well and had need of reinforcements at that point – it was the centre and on his right where Ney later looked for aid.

Now, Kellermann's III Cavalry Corps included L'Heritier's 11th Cavalry Division, formed of the 2nd and 7th dragoon regiments. But wasn't until 5pm that parts of this corps arrived – so it's fairly clear they weren't involved with Brunswick. Were the dragoons involved? Reports say Kellermann arrived with just a part of a brigade: namely Guiton's 8th and 11th Cuirassier Regiments. Ney sent them, together with the remnants of Píré's cavalry, against the Allied centre where they scattered what was left of the Brunswick and Belgian cavalry. They went straight into the charge – no canter – therefore no time to use carbines.

Were they skirmishing, dismounted? The whole of Reille's front was covered by its own skirmish line. Why would they need dismounted cavalry?

"I like the idea of the dismounted dragoons being present, and quite possibly being responsible for the demise of the Duke of Brunswick"

Of course, in battle, most anything's possible and somehow this dragoon-Brunswick story would have to be interwoven with the inconvenient testimonies as we have them.

I'm setting up a Peninsular game which turns around possession of a ford. The idea is to begin with a few individual advance troops using skirmish rules to establish who controls the crossing. Then after a few turns, any remaining troops are joined by the rest of their units, re-enforcements arrive on the table and we change to rules for a multi-divisional game. I would think, using a similar method you could, perhaps, imagine a couple of dragoons arriving after 2pm as messengers from Kellermann. Since they're at hand, a harried Ney sends them out to his left to report on the progress of Jérôme's advance through the Bosau wood and to see if the enemy there is being re-enforced. Hoping to stay unseen the pair dismount, carbines ready, at the wood's Eastern edge and creep along the stream bed, just in time to see the Duke of Brunswick lead his Black Hussars into the charge….

And the rest is history.