"Fife and Drum miniatures are SO frustrating!!" Topic

This is post is not what many might have assumed. It's not a criticism of Fife and Drum as a company or about its quality.

It's about what I didn't know about their scale. They sell their AWI range as being "30mm" in size. Which is totally fine, there is a completely subjective range of sizes that a line of miniatures can be considered. I have no problem with Fife And Drum selling them with this description.

The problem is what you see in this photo. This is one of Fife and Drum's models next to a Perry plastic model.

The difference in size is problematic. Just want to point out, the photo makes it look not QUITE as bad because the FD model is up on a higher mound of poster putty.

But you can see the proportions are different enough to almost be different scales altogether. The Perry plastic is "28mm" yet the FD is supposed to be "30mm" which should mean it would, at least intuitively be slightly bigger.

Now what's interesting here is that as far as their HEIGHT, the FD drum model's musket is as long as the Perry model, which TECHNICALLY makes them the same height.

But everything else, the heads are distinctly two different sizes, the Perry guy almost has the proportions of a mountain troll next to the FD guy.

It's so frustrating because my entire AWI forces for both sides are all Perry plastic/metal, Wargames Foundry, and Brigade Games which are all ranges that are quite compatible and very, very close in their proportions.

I was hoping I had finally found a U.S. source for AWI miniatures where I could pay American shipping rates instead of shipping rates to get it from England.

To be clear, FD miniatures are GREAT models. The detail is awesome, the mold lines were very faint and minimal, and they had virtually no flash. Fantastic models.

They're just simply too small to be mixed in with any of the other AWI ranges that I've got. And that's a shame. I had to get them side by side to find out, although I certainly could have asked other TMP AWI gamers beforehand, which is my own fault for not doing!

And FD miniatures are impressive enough to me that I would very much consider buying a bunch more of them to use with AWI skirmish rules where I only use FD models, totally possible!

My solution to your quandary is quite simple.
Don't mix them in the same unit with other manufactures.
I've been doing AWI since the 1980s, exclusively with Hinchliffe.
Since then, I've happily mixed at least a dozen or more manufactures, with no problems. If I think that they don't scale up well with others, I don't mix them in the same unit. 🤷

By the way, FnD are not "30mm". They are anatomically correct 1/56 scale. So their heads are proper in scale.
Perry are known for having outsized heads, as are Front Rank. Perry are also larger than Foundry, despite having the same sculptor.
And none of that bothers me one bit. 🤷😄

My solution to your angry is quite simple.
Don't mix them in the same unit with other manufactures.
I've been doing AWI since the 1980s, exclusively with Hinchliffe.
Since then, I've happily mixed at least a dozen or more manufactures, with no problems. If I think that they don't scale up well with others, I don't mix them in the same unit. 🤷

By the way, FnD are not "30mm". They are anatomically correct 1/56 scale. So their heads are proper in scale.
Perry are known for having outsized heads, as are Front Rank. Perry are also larger than Foundry, despite having the same sculptor.
And none of that bothers me one bit. 🤷😄

Baranovich,

What you say is true. For me however once painted and on the table the differences disappear.

I started with Front Rank the Old Glory added some Firing Line and RSM 95. When Foundry came out I got those and Perry as well. Had to have the Eureka Marbleheaders and Molly Pitcher. Picked up some Kings Mountain. Jumped onto the
Kickstarter from Brigade Games. Bought some Fife and Drum because they are so good looking. Somewhere along the way I got a Stadden George Washington.

The other two lines of figures completely compatible with Fife and Drum are Crann Tara (available through Caliver Books) and RSM. F&D and Crann Tara castings were sculpted by the same individual; the late Richard Ansell.

F&D are cast by Griffin Molds in the UK, which has a good reputation for providing very clean, crisp castings. Crann Tara used to be cast by Griffin, but I don't think that's the case since the line was acquired by Caliver.

Yes indeed, I did misread their website. They are sold as being "1/56" scale and "30mm high".

However, 1/56 had been used by other mini. ranges and they've been far closer to Perry's proportions.

FD models have a feel of being more like 20mm scale, which would to my eye correctly put them between 15mm and 28mm scale.

At least as I perceive them.

@Fusilier Dan, I appreciate your insight into the after-painting appearance helping them to blend in better.

I will paint them up and check that out, thanks!

Yes, in another example of the madness which is miniatures wargaming, "28mm" is both a scale and a set of proportions--which are not quite human. I noticed the same thing when I picked up some Stadden (or were they Suren?) gunners a few years ago. Place a 28mm next to them and the 28 is often quite as tell, but the 30mm is closer to normal human anatomy.

That's an obesrvation and not a criticism: exagerated proportions are often helpful in miniatures, and it gets more so as you scale down from 28mm. But as others have observed, you can use them on the same table, though not in the same unit or stand.

@John the OFM,

Well, I would disagree that Perry heads are oversized for their proportions. They seem spot on to me.

Also, the differences between Foundry and Perry are minor, whereas Front Rank are quite different in proportions, having oversized heads and being notably shorter than Foundry and Perry, almost looking like slightly shrunken 28mm minis. or children wearing uniforms. Front Rank still nice minis. though.

Just my perceptions.

Sir, if you are not happy with your purchase then please contact me and we can arrange for you to get a full refund. I don't want to make any assumptions, but it sounds like my figures were not what you were expecting and I can understand that.

My figures are sculpted to a scale rather than a size. 1/56 is a scale. 28mm is a size. My figures are in 1/56 scale. That means that a FD figure and equipment is 1/56th the size of a real person. Thus everything is in exact scale and that explains why they look thinner than other figure ranges. I just measured a marching figure and it measures 30mm from the foot to the top of the head. However, this does make them 30mm figures (which are a size).

As I understand it, Perry and Paul Hicks (Brigade and others) designed figures use "heads" as their height standard. I think that an average human is the equivalent of seven heads tall. Perhaps a figure sculptor can weigh in on this distinction and give us the correct information.

I use different figure ranges in my own AWI armies. I have Perry Brunswickers and Hessian jagers. When I eventually decide to do a French army for Savannah I will use Perry French figures. As John the OFM says, just don't mix different figures in the same unit and you should be fine.

Perry and Brigade figures are of similar height and heft and both complement each other very nicely. BTW, the Perrys sculpted the Foundry AWI ranges before they set up their own business and figure ranges, so the two should be compatible. You can't go wrong with either of these figure ranges.

Well, I'm sorry to ramble on but I wanted to give you a little background about the various AWI figure ranges. Again, send me an email with your information and I will give you a refund. And you can keep the figures too.

Cheers,

Jim

Class Act, DAF.

@Der Alte Fritz,

It feels as if you partially misinterpreted the purpose of my post. It's not about your company being "deceptive" or having a bad quality product. It's the opposite!

Your figures are GREAT. And totally worth keeping. I said as much in my post. I'm just pointing out a scale issue that I discovered when your minis. with the other popular mini. AWI ranges out there, all the ones that I happened to buy first before I knew your company existed.

I misinterpreted the scaling and was too impatient to ask anyone on TMP about the scale before I ordered.

That being said, if I had purchased all FD miniatures from the start, my entire AWI armies on both sides would have been from FD because I would have wanted them all to be in scale with each other.

I have no desire to take a sale away from you, that would be totally unfair given that my problem arose from me not doing the proper research ahead of time.

As I closed my original post, I like your miniatures so much that I'm considering buying multiple packs from you to do AWI skirmish, where I'll put your minis. on individual round bases.

Look for more order from me in the near future, and thank you for your response!

Do not worry. Your original post didn't strike me as being of ill will and I know that it was posted with nothing but the best of intentions. I always welcome feedback on FD and Minden figures.

Cheers,

Jim

"As I understand it, Perry and Paul Hicks (Brigade and others) designed figures use "heads" as their height standard. I think that an average human is the equivalent of seven heads tall. Perhaps a figure sculptor can weigh in on this distinction and give us the correct information."

I'd agree with this, save for " "heads" as their height standard", which would probably be better expressed as " "heads" as their proportion standard "
This is because the height of the figure is objective, i.e. its X mm depending on what you set it to. Heads are used as a measurement as it works regardless of the that X mm value.
It allows the proportion of the figure to be worked on using heads as the measurement "ruler". It's easier to work on things as being "heads" in length than recalculating them as fractions of that Xmm measurement (kinda like using "D" days in military planning, rather than specific callender dates; its easier to manipulate). It should be noted that most of this is done by eyeball once the sculptor has internalised the proportional measurements.

The average person is about 7 to 7 1/2 heads tall. The shorter you are the lower that ratio is and the taller you are the higher it is. This is because human head size does not vary as much as height does. So if you see a photo of a person with a proportionally small head, its a fair guess they are tall. It varies with age too; a toddler might be 4 heads tall, this ratio increases towards 7 to 8 as we get taller, our heads don't grow as much as the rest of us.

Wargames figures can run the gamut from 5 to 8 heads tall. 8 is pretty rare, 4 can be seen occasssionally (these strike people as gnomish). 6 to 7 is more normal these days. 5 to 6 were more accepted 20 years ago (Foundry for example).
Frustratingly the wargames world has the additional wrinkle of measurement from sole to eyeline (rather than crown). I've always assumed this is because you often can't get at the crown as its hidden by headgear, but you can still work out where it is as the eyeline is at the half-way line of the head's height; so chin to eye times two. That's provided the eyeline is place correctly- often its not.

To make things a little clearer, here's Andrew Loomis' classic artistic proportion illustration. You can see that the head divisions help place the landmarks- nipples at 2 heads from the top, navel at 3 etc. Artists often like to use 8 heads as its easier to halve the total height into divisions.

Its good because its shows different standards used for different styles; fashion illustration figures are often unrealistically tall.
Realism is a stylistic choice, as is, say, Chibi, so I imply no criticism of different styles.

Thank you Clib. This is good information and it provides insight to,how sculptors approach their creations. BTW, I really like your work.

I use Fife and Drum AWI figures with Perrys and Old Glory minis, just as someone suggested, not in the same unit. for example, My Hessian forces are Perry, Old Glory for musketeers and grenadiers and I use F&D for Jaegers because I liked the sculpts so much.

When the "Barrett system" was introduced in the Courier years ago, its purpose was to reduce confusion, by measuring from the ground to the eye, ignoring the top of the head.
In my opinion, this only increased confusion.
Back when Eureka was running its "100 Club" to, in effect, beg for different figures to be produced. I asked for Highlanders in campaign dress, Ragged Continentals and Gloucester Marbleheaders.
For "scale", I just asked "Perry compatible".

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄😅😅😅

Barrett Scale System – Wow! Who knew?

The Courier uses the Tobey Barrett Measurements System (BM) to simplify the comparison of figure sizes one to another. Briefly the number is the height in Millimeters from the bottom of the figure's foot (top of the base) to it's eye. The letter refers to the "heft" of the figure: L = Light; M = Medium; and H = Heavy. H will fit well with other H and somewhat with M but not at all with L even in the same scale. thus a 27 M is a larger 25mm figure of Medium Heft

Cowell – Wargaming Figure Scales

TMP – All About Scales

Wayback – Warflag – Figures

Stefanov – MagWeb – Courier – Barrett Scale

So, buy from everyone who makes decent figures, but put "outliers" in different units.

Why not simply use Perry as your model, as far as proportions go? Jim is indeed a class act and his figures are really well done.

But I get the idea that figure manufactures want to make their figures different enough so you have to buy theirs for the rest of your army. Didn't work with me as I keep the 18mm figures in their own units. But I'm just saying that is the general idea.

That's how we ended up with 18mm and 30mm figures. So yeah just keep them in their own units and OG 15mm will play nice with 18mm AB figures and your 30mm Redoubt figures will play nice with 28mm OG figures or whatever figures.

Baranovich, you say you are paying for shipping rates from England. In case you are not aware, Triangle Miniatures in NC sales Perry and other brands of AWI miniatures.

I must be missing something here as I do not understand Baranovich's point. I will also state up front I am an unabashed fan of the Fife and Drum miniatures.