"I was wrong: HMGS may be right." Topic

I've said it here, so I should be just as open when I eat crow. For years I've sniped at HMGS (formerly East) for promoting box games and fantasy and science fiction miniatures games. It dilutes the mission, encourages the dealers to adjust to different customers and generally makes the conventions less attractive to historical miniatures gamers.

All that remains true. But they may be right to do so anyway. I took up visiting the local shops with in-shop gaming. One of them had heard of a historical miniatures gamer. Otherwise, it was a new concept. In fact, the kids seemed a little hazy on wargaming any way other than GW standard--buying approved miniatures to play standard scenarios with the official rules.

My sample is small, but if that's what we're up against, something similar to the HMGS policy is the only way forward: let in at least historical box games and fantasy and SF miniatures games and hope the remaining historical miniatures games attract the attention of those unfamiliar with the concept.

I don't know that it will work, and I'd still like to see one genuine historical miniatures convention a year. But as they say in The Lion in Winter "it's no use asking if the air is good when there's nothing else to breathe."

When you're wrong, the correction should be as public as the error. I hope mine is.

It is sad and infuriating to have to agree with you. I've always felt that every bit of energy, and thought spent on non-historical gaming was a tragic waste. At most the historical cons should set a low percentage for these games.

Robert, I am unaware of your specific comments, however, I respect that you are willing to publicly admit that you may have been wrong. A lot of people would have sought refuge in silence. You were obviously brought up right.

Robert, thanks for that.

I believe you're in Ohio (outside of HMGS, Inc.'s "territory"), so you may not see some of this ……

1) In the Greater Philadelphia area we have been doing "outreach" as HMGS at non-historical gaming shows.
The largest of these has been PAX Unplugged (https://unplugged.paxsite.com/) where in 2023 we took a 20'x30' space and ran walk-up demo games (that's PAX U's "model"); in 2024 we took a 20'x40' space and ran 2 ticketed "eye-candy" games (multiple times) in addition to the walk-up demos.
We "signed up" people for a complementary (non-voting) one-year HMGS Inc. Membership (as long as they were not already in our database), so they could come to one or all of our shows that year at the Member price.
We'll be back there this year with a 20'x50' space.

2) HMGS, Inc. is in the process of formalizing those Outreach efforts, the first step of which is recruiting Outreach Coordinators in 5 metropolitan areas.

This is about going where the non-historical gamers are and showing them what historical gaming is about. We can also go to venues like historical locations and heritage festivals (a recent one in my town had reenactors, historical societies, and historical venues, all with booths).

As you said, the non-historical events at HMGS, Inc's shows is about giving non-historical gamers a reason to come check out the conventions … and hopefully get hooked.

The more non-historical gamers we can get interested, the more "new blood" there will be to buy your stuff in Wally's Basement (versus trying to sell it to grognards that "have everything").

Speaking as one who is sick and tired of hearing how WE need to "reach out to Kids Today"…
I don't really care. The "Graying of the Hobby" is not high on my list of things to develop ulcers over.
As semi retired Country Music guitarist Junior Brown said about genuine country music dying out, "Well nobody plays Ragtime anymore."
We are buggy whips, and I'm at peace with that.
We are dial phones.

As for HMGS conventions, I remember them! I gave up on tournaments a long time ago, and I do my shopping on line. (I use a DEVICE for that!)

Get off my lawn!

Ya think maybe y'all could not insult the intelligence of science fiction and fantasy gamers by denigrating their interests and efforts? Wonder if that might help in gaining more historical players— not treating others with other interests like a warm spatter of dog poo on your shoes?

Fortunately, my local HMGS does not have that attitude. They'll welcome any players of anything… and so does their convention. They're never condescending, arrogant, or dismissive. And as a result, they do get more interest in all forms of historical miniatures gaming. Imagine that.

Maybe it's a Southern thing. We're raised to be polite and respectful of others. (Though watch out for our "Well bless his heart." That's a killer takedown, right there.)

Thank you all.

Lord Hollier, you're close. Indiana these days, but I still make it to Lancaster sometimes, and maintain an HMGS membership for the Wally's Basement table. So I do get some information on outreach, but I'm not in a positon to help. Good luck!

OFM, a perfectly defensible position. My reasons not to follow are personal things:
1) I was the kid, so I'm running out of opponents, and I've never really taken to solo play.
2) I hate to see waste. If there's not another generation of historical miniatures gamers, a lot of creative effort--even if one objects to calling it "art"--is headed for landfills.
3) I find my device necessary but not sufficient for new stuff. It's an easy way to pick up limbers when I'm short, but not a good way to see how a new set of rules plays, or pick up new terrain-making techniques. And things show up in Wally's Basement you'll never know about any other way.

So when the authorities close down the last horse & musket game, I'll be one of the people taken into custody.

YouTube link

Robert, as a dyed in the wool historical gamer of 55+ years, I have lately become totally absorbed in fantasy worlds. Part of it is that make believe is so much pleasanter than the current reality. Part is the completely limitless world available the explore and game in.

Back in the late 1980s, the debate over board games was brought up since miniature gamers did not want HMGS shows to become like Origins.
The first debate on fantasy was not GW but Ral Partha bringing Battletech and D&D miniatures. They brought all of their 25mm Ancients and new Colonial series of 10 for $4. USD So they got to stay.
Over the years fantasy grew. I attended for 19 straight years until they reduced my vendor table to one in order to give a pulp fiction seller my other two tables. I could not display enough product in order to make the drive from Alabama worth while. Only cleared $48 USD for four days work after expenses and restock costs.
Board games back then were found mainly in the flea market.
So this issue was resolved, for better or worse, a long time ago.

I agree with a lot of statements here. From both sides of the argument.
I have attended several Historicons over the years, from the ‘80s to my most recent one in ‘16. A Cold Wars or two in the very early years too. My goodness, to be a historical gamer and have great conventions like that.
Back in 2010 I volunteered for the very first Huzzah!. A clearly focused regional historical gaming convention in Maine. I was the front desk guy every year through ‘16 or ‘17. I participated in planning and organizing. In ‘17-‘19 I was the director. I got first hand experience in running a convention, and what it took to keep it viable and growing. A good, solid convention with a lot of attendees is exciting, creates buzz, and also attracts great vendors. A big win-win for everyone.
In the early days of Huzzah, we were focused on historical games. We did allow a few sci-fi. All was good. We avoided card games, cosplay, and roleplaying games. The formula worked. Our attendance grew each year, and the convention was exciting. By allowing some sci-fi and even fantasy miniature games into a "historical " convention has been a winning formula. The graybeards or grognards may grumble, but overall it's great. More attendees attracts more and better vendors, and allows us to offer a better convention, better discounts for the hotel room blocks, etc.
John, I fully understand your position. I interacted with our local grognards every year over this same issue. In the end, a few sci-fi and fantasy games in a historical gaming convention has far more plusses than negatives

My local games store has a large selection of Games Workshop products. I asked the staff there the other day if any of them were historical wargamers – not a single one, all Games Workshop players.

Well, you asked the staff at a games store what they played. So you're talking probably some rather young people receiving close to the local minimum wage who probably work at the store because they like broadly available commercial games and are young enough that their hourly wage still seems viable to them— no families, no responsibilities, just their own rent, clothing, food and leisure purchases for which they either play what is sold in the store or what offers the most players of their own age and economic situation. Guess what that likely isn't.

Historical gamers are more than likely older males with professional, salaried jobs, married with grown or at least older children. They live in houses with ample space for a dedicated hobby area. They have time for research, collecting miniatures from a wide variety of sources, sculpt their own terrain or scratch build it from scraps, and can enjoy their hobby solo if it comes to that, or have a small group of life-long friends with similar interests and life situations. What they don't do is work in games stores, except as the owner. (And if one is the owner, he'll tell you he has to sell GW games, board games, and CCGs if he's going to stay in business.)

So, the wrong demographic for a positive response to your question.

At Nashcon, one can see that the gray heads typically are at the historical tables, but so are less grays and even some interested young players.
The GW/Mantic/MCU areas are all in their young 20s or 30s (at the most). It's actually a rather narrow age spread— the other games have a broader age span.

But the vendors are for the broad span, and get a lot of attention as far as I can tell.

The GW guys will one day most likely leave the hobby entirely as life changes— they move into trade or professional jobs with more pay, they meet a life-mate, get a mortgage and kids… and then, when things settle a bit more, and those first few lighter streaks appear in their thinning hair, they'll start looking around for something else to do… and they'll see that their old game has passed them by with new editions and new backgrounds and new models, and they'll look a bit more and remember the historical guys. "That looks interesting, and it hasn't changed much," they'll say. And then in a few years, they are the grey heads muttering about the young people today…

Hope you're right, Parzival. Actually, I heard much the same argument 50+ years ago, absent the F&SF element. Fred Vietmeyer was telling me that wargamers started pretty much when they had allowances and could read the rules, but you tended to lose them from when they discovered girls until the most time-consuming years of parenthood were past.

When you think of it, though, he couldn't have seen such a cycle: the hobby was too new. The first kid to drop out wouldn't have been back by 1972. I think he arrived at that conclusion because few or none of the observed wargamers had children living at home. Did anyone here take a 15 year hiatus from miniature warfare? Do you know anyone who has?

Did anyone here take a 15 year hiatus from miniature warfare?

I did. As a 17yo in my final year of school, I started a new project (which in hindsight was VERY ambitious) of building a division each of French and Russians for 1812, using WRG 1785-1845 rules and 25mm Minifigs. I got as far as 2 units done.

2 weeks after my final exams, I was working full time. 6 months later, I was in another town in a share house. It wasn't until the mid 90s, in my early 30s, that I heard about DBA. I was still working full time, married with 2 young kids, but I mustered the energy to paint a couple of DBA armies.

I never did finish those 1812 divisions, but I do have enough units for a game of Lasalle.

If people are thinking that GW players will magically become historical gamers once they "grow up", you're sadly mistaken.
They'll shift over to computer games.

No. The Earth inhabited by historical gamers will be hit by an asteroid. It's been a good run.

I am so sick of people who see the world so black and white and I applaud Robert trying to make outreach. I have been a fantasy/sci fi gamer AND a historical gamer my whole life. Life's too short to be so small minded. Stop declaring you can only have one or the other type. If you are that limited, I am sorry for you.

I know some fantastic historical gamers who do unbelievably good sci fi/ fantasy games and vice versa. Why do we have to limit our interests exactly?

I am perfectly capable of running a detailed game between elves and orcs one week and simultaneously prep for a well researched, painted and prepped game set during the Franco Prussian War the next, and a game set during the Dark Ages after that. I own naval and air forces and multiple sets of armies all across the breadth of history. I also own star fighters, mechs, dwarves, orcs, elves, and fleets of starships.

I love it all- don't make me choose.

Nashcon is a great show. I am adjusting my to take list from what I am taking to Bayou Wars, Biloxi, next week to my Nashcon products for August. I sell many more board games at Nashcon but I am bring a lot of Old West items and Wargames Atlantic.

Never took a hiatus from wargaming. I opened my store in 1983 and am still in business because I avoided mandatory purchase limits and store layouts. So I have been gaming since 1971, so 54 years.

Walked away in 1985; returned in 2005 so a tad more than 15 yrs.
But when I returned I noticed there were more choices, more media, more fora. I don't play FS&F but if it promotes any interest in the hobby, then great. Terrain, painting, scratch building, gaming are part of whatever you play. It's only the miniature representatives that look different.

I love it all- don't make me choose.

Who says we have to choose? Go enjoy your science fiction convention—no one's stopping you. But can't historical gamers also have a convention of their own? A place where like-minded people come together to celebrate the historical gaming hobby without having to justify it?

Why all the hostility toward historical gamers? Why are we suddenly the "bad guys"? Do we go to fantasy gaming cons demanding more tables for Napoleonic battles? Do we show up at model railroad conventions asking for gaming space next to the O-scale layouts? Of course not. Because we understand what it means to have a dedicated space for a specific interest. That's all we're asking for.

The idea that bringing sci-fi and fantasy games to a historical gaming convention will somehow convert younger players into historical gamers—how well is that actually working? Why not invite them directly to play historical games? That's a novel idea. Let them experience what makes our hobby meaningful.

The kind of young person who gets into historical gaming is already out there—they're just not everywhere. They're the kid who finishes their history textbook in the first two weeks of class. The one who watches every documentary, goes to every war movie, and reads every military history book they can find. They're rare, but they exist. I know—I was one. And I suspect many of you were too.

If a kid isn't interested in history, you're probably not going to win them over by putting tanks next to space marines. And if they're just into gaming, they'll follow whatever's trendy. That's fine. Let them. But let us have our space too.

This debate has been going around in circles since the 1980s, and some of us are simply tired of it. I'm fortunate—we have a few high schoolers, a young teacher, and a nurse who regularly show up for our historical games. That's enough for me. I'm not going to lose sleep trying to "save" the hobby. I just want to play historical games.

For what it's worth, I started historical gaming at 14. I took a break during my later high school years (girls and cars took priority), then came back to it while in the military and college. It was years before I even realized fantasy miniatures existed. And that was fine. Because for me—and many others—it was always about the history.

The GW guys will one day most likely leave the hobby entirely as life changes

So my story arc is GW to many games to none…

Now I am a "born again gamer" primarily with GW games: Spearhead, Kill Team, Warcry and AoS/40K smaller games at 1000 points. I've been to many tournaments over the last 5 ish years

I do play Historical games: Bolt Action and Saga mostly

I started as GW Warhammer player. Now I do mostly (99%) historical games. But I still enjoy sci-fi gaming and I have no problem if someone wants to host a sci-fi or fantasy game at a HMGS conventions. I have seen some really outstanding efforts in both those categories.

Getting more people interested gets more suppliers moving inventory.

Did anyone here take a 15 year hiatus from miniature warfare? Mine was almost 18.

Starting in 1972, I was an avid gamer, frequent Con GM and somtime rules author (Mekong and Jagdpanzer) From 79-85 taught micro-armor to my troops, while on active duty. Later on to the rest of the BN. Great way to teach my TC's tactics. Left active duty in 1985.

Got back home and again I was an avid gamer, frequent Con GM and somtime rules author (Sand Oil and Blood) Up until 96 where our gaming group broke up because of our proclivity for children, and their time demands. Still went to Gencon every year for the spectacle, the auction, and to see old friends. But did not paint a fig until 2005. (Did a lot of computer gaming when the little hobgoblins were asleep)

Started back with micro armor and Chainmail (esp LOTR) in 2005. Getting my kids briefly involved. Now very very heavy into 15mmm WWII. (Jagdpanzer 2nd Edtion). Elected to the Board about 10 years later. President since 2019.

Since then HMGS-Midwest has consistently run Historical Games at venue's such as Tundracon, Polar Vortex, Dragonfall, Gamehole Con, Garycon, Origins and Gencon. We have a newsletter sign up sheet and do have a raffle for free Little Wars tickets. In addition to some of the best eye-candy games we have.

With that data, we track the success, we have had with "crossovers". That is why we continue to do it.

I remember "back in the day" when many of us wished for standard rule sets for each period, just so that you could go across the country and play with almost any gaming group. Now, some 45-50 years later we have them, but it's not what we thought it was going to be! WH40K, Age of Sigmar, Warlord's Epic sets, Flames of War, etc., are all the young and middle aged gamers know and will probably ever know. Those of us still doing Fire & Fury, Sword & The Flame, Age of Reason, etc., are in the minority and that is going to continue to shrink each and every year going forward.

"Did anyone here take a 15 year hiatus from miniature warfare?"

Yes. Just did board and computer games from the early 80s until late 90s. I had college and kids.

We played everything, historical, Sci fi, fantasy. I prefer historicals though, always have.

Old Contemptible, agree with you and you Saud UT so much better then I could. Thank you.

No hostility, but I notice that many sci fi/ fantasy conventions have historical events. Hell, I played my first historical miniatures game at Gen Con back when it was in Kenosha (that's a long ways back- early 1980s). I had no idea historical miniature games were a thing prior to that. I got direct exposure as a result. This began my love of historical miniatures. (Prior to that my exposure to historical wargames was from board games checked out from the library and buying the SPI game Soldiers for $1.99 USD at Kaybee toys discount bin at age 12). I have always loved history, but my exposure was from mainstream sources- not specialized places that I didn't discover until later.

I have since played many historical games at Gen Con, Gary Con, Origins and PAX. I have never in those years heard anyone complain about historical games being at those conventions. Yet the complaints from historical conventions about non-historical games I have heard since my first historical convention- which was Little Wars back in 2003, twenty years after my first Gen Con. I never even knew historical conventions existed prior to that and was exposed only by word of mouth. The following year I took my son (age 7 at the time) and he and I have been attending ever since. So I am doing my part to at least keep the flame alive, though we still play fantasy and sci fi from time to time, and even, gasp, board games, but we still love historical miniatures. We have been to Historicon, Huzzah, Fall In and a number of tiny localized historical conventions since.

I still meet people who have no idea Historicon, Cold Wars, or Little Wars or the various other historically focused conventions exist. They are all aware of Gen Con, Origins, Dragon Con, GameHole Con and Pax amongst others, but have no idea the historically focused shows exist, or have heard of them in passing only. Maybe more effort on getting the word out would bear more fruit long term. (And apologies to HMGS Midwest who I know does just that as Kevin pointed out above.)

Thank you Tgerritsen and Kcabai,

As part of HMGS Outreach, My team have been running Historical games at "other Conventions" and have done many Historical events at Historical site. (Brandywine at Brandywine, Olympia Games Day this will be our 5th year, Fort Mifflin Games Day, USS New Jersey, and Crooket Billet.) Shows like PAX Unplugged and Pennsylvania Area Gamers Expo have drawn more new members to our Conventions which equals "paying customers" for Vendors and flea marketeers. they are also replacements to our so called dying hobby.

Stop by Historicon War College at 9 AM on Saturday July 19th to see/hear our presentation on "HMGS Volenteer Opportunities."

Interesting. It appears Baron Vietmeyer was correct in his analysis. The support for young F&SF players coming back as mature historical gamers does not appear to be as strong, unless I'm missing something.

aegisgc47, I sometimes feel the same way, but don't despair. Several of the sets you name as all the younger players know weren't around ten years ago, and fewer have 20 years on them. Times change and rules change--and they've been doing that ever since Little Wars. (Watch HG Wells grudgingly permit burst circles and dice in his appendix.) Some of the hot new games will eventually become the games only old people play--if they're lucky.

For myself, I introduced two new players to CLS this spring, and they seemed pleased with it. Hoping for more this fall.