"Substituting Vehicles" Topic

I quietly follow some of the discussions on tanks here on TMP. I realize there were numerous varieties of different tanks--the Sherman tanks in particular have different guns, armor, turrets, suspensions, engines, and so on. How much leeway is normally allowed if you can't find the specific version you want?

My specific problem is with the World War II Greek army. They bought two of the Vickers 6-ton light tanks back in 1931, one Type A, with two rifle caliber machine guns, each in its own turret, and one Type B, with a 3 pdr and a machine gun in one turret. To my surprise, these were still functioning in October 1940 when Greece was attacked by Italy. They were later supplemented by ten of the Vickers "Der Dutchman" light tanks, originally intended for the Dutch colonial army, the KNIL.

All very lovely, if more than a bit obscure, except that people tend not to make models of these tanks, though they do make variants of them. The Vickers 6-ton was sold to several other nations, including Poland and the Soviet Union, both of whom produced variants under license from Vickers, with various modifications. Both Polish and Soviet versions of both the Type A and Type B are available now. However, these are a little different from the original Vickers model. I can track some of the mods, and many are things inside that don't change the external looks of the tank. Others (like the enlarged ventilation equipment on Polish tanks), are fairly easy to convert.

Just to muddy the waters a bit further, the Bolt Action army list for the Greeks calls for a tank with "One turret mounted HMG and a coaxial medium machine gun." Of course, none of the models I've mentioned earlier carry this armament, though the later Mark VI light tank actually does. I've been using a model of the Mark VIB, but would like to be accurate, and besides, the interwar light tanks with two machine gun turrets look like they would be fun.

I have written to the Bolt Action folks to explain some of this problem and ask them to change their army lists so I could use the Der Dutchman or the Vickers 6-ton light tank variants (they actually sell models of the Polish and Soviet versions of the Vickers 6-ton tanks).

So, what do other people do if the specific model tank they want/need is not available?

Grelber

Buy what's available and call it what you want.

You don't need Warlord's permission to change the army list -- it is your game.

You can use an Italian tankette if you want.

+1 79thPA.

My requirement was always the vehicle has to be recognizable for what it is supposed to be from normal wargaming distance, so typically a little more than 3-4 feet, arms length.

So no Panzer III as Tiger I, but a Kelly's Heroes T-34 modified to look like a Tiger I is fine.

Bunkermeister

Something close enough is good enough. These things are in the eye of the beholder, I am more picky about some things than others.

If an Army List is wrong, just ignore it. It is only a bit of paper written by someone else. They are your toys, do what you want with them.

It probably depends on the alpha player in your group.
If he allows it all is fine.
If he does not, then leave the group.

martin

+1 79th and both Martins.

The model on the table is there to give you an idea what it represents imo. Models are prettier than counters but they're both doing the same thing.
I wouldn't worry beyond can the players work out what tank it's supposed to be.

I find that Warlord rules and scenarios are best when they are rewritten to fit my needs.

As described above they are just paper with someone's interpretation of the events. If all I have is a Sherman that's what I use. Proxy as needed, adjust scenarios as needed to enjoy YOUR game, You do not need anyone's permission to make adjustments.

Enjoy Your hobby, Your way.

Hmph. I mostly sulk, but in these days of 3D printing, and given we're mostly talking variants of known and produced types, I'd find a local gamer with a 3D printer, buy him a nice lunch and offer to buy him another when he delivered the variant parts.

I am lucky to be able to 3D print what I need. Otherwise, I proxy in a different vehicle.

You didn't mention which scale.
I have found ETSY has a bunch of obscure vehicles – including Vickers

As above, use something reasonably close

Right now I am scratch building a sIG 33 auf Panzer 38(t) Ausf.H/K Grille using parts from the Plastic Soldier company 38t – Marder kit because there is a scenario I would like to play that calls for one – if I can't get it done in time, I just may substitute a Marder III

I generally use something that is reasonably close visually. But I often (too often these days?) do a bit of kit-bashing to make it even closer to what I want.

For me, that's all part of the hobby. I like fielding playing pieces that are kit that is not sold by any (known) manufacturer. And I enjoy doing the modelling work to get to (or close to) that result.

In my case, working at 6mm scale makes it both harder and easier at the same time -- harder in that the figures and/or models are small and fiddly, and easier in that it's hard to see how close or not close my mods or substitutions are.

Examples:

My Italian officers get to ride in Fiat 508CM staff cars. No one makes this at 1/285 or 1/300. So I had to kit-bash up a couple from Polish PZInz302s.

No one makes Red Army horse-drawn caissons for AT or infantry guns. SO I kit-bashed up a few from the caissons that come with Komsomolets prime movers (and various horses and riders from cavalry packs).

GHQ only makes late-model E variants of the Soviet T-28 tank. So I altered the gun barrels and filed down the edges of the add-on armor to give me some quantity of the more common early production variants.

I can't find any source of French motorcycle + sidecar combinations for my French recon and Dragoon forces. So I have to substitute German units, with minimal kit-bashing to try to make them just a LITTLE bit more identifiable as French (hint – the LMGs have top-mounted magazines).

My French colonial force needed some form of infantry fire support. So I borrowed Romanian (captured) SG43 HMGs, and kit-bashed up a couple French M1917 37mm trench guns (hoping that the somewhat oversized Romanian helmets could pass for tropical sun helmets on the French colonial force).

When I first started gaming at this scale there was not nearly as much kit available as there is now. So a fair bit of my materials were entirely scratch built. Today I can get Russian peasant huts, but back in the day, not so much. I can also get WW2 Red Air Force fighters. But these Lavotchkins that I made from card stock and plastic putty back in the late 1970s are still in my active forces.

So I would encourage exploring options on how to field equipment that is not available in someone's catalog. At least for me, having kit no one else puts on the table is part of the fun.

Your tankage may vary,

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)