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"Beer & Pretzels? Not Empire!" Topic


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05 Jun 2025 5:21 p.m. PST
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Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian05 Jun 2025 5:16 p.m. PST

You were asked – TMP link

There's a lot of rulesets out there that are described as 'Beer and Pretzels' for their simplicity. Which ruleset is the furthest away from being Beer and Pretzels?

And in the final round of voting:

29% said "Empire"
28% said "Harpoon"
16% said "Starfleet Battles"

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP05 Jun 2025 5:59 p.m. PST

Ah, it was close!
Every vote counts!

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian05 Jun 2025 8:13 p.m. PST

Keep in mind how important these TMP polls are! wink

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP05 Jun 2025 8:52 p.m. PST

Vitally important!
I was obviously rooting hope Harpoon, but unlike some (naming no names) I am fine with accepting the results of a close election.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP06 Jun 2025 4:10 a.m. PST

You don't think (naming no names) that it was Russian influence, then, OFM?

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP06 Jun 2025 6:38 a.m. PST

🤔 Perhaps Someone should look into that?

Personal logo StoneMtnMinis Supporting Member of TMP06 Jun 2025 7:54 a.m. PST

Just be thankful that TMP doesn't use mail-in ballots or dominion voting machines!

If it did Old Maid would have won!

Personal logo miniMo Supporting Member of TMP06 Jun 2025 7:59 a.m. PST

3 worthy contenders!

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP06 Jun 2025 2:08 p.m. PST

Sadly, I suspect this is more a matter of familarity. If more of us played naval games relative to Napoleonics, the OFM might well have gotten his wish.

I'm wondering how you would objectively measure the complexity of a set of miniatures rules. Number of factors taken into account for movement or combat resolution? Number of procedures per wargamer decision? Any suggestions?

Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP06 Jun 2025 4:41 p.m. PST

I'm wondering how you would objectively measure the complexity of a set of miniatures rules. Number of factors taken into account for movement or combat resolution? Number of procedures per wargamer decision? Any suggestions?

For me it's how long it takes to complete one game turn for a brigade (2 or 3 units). If it's over an hour, largely looking at charts and tables rather than moving figures or rolling dice, then it's likely lost my interest by GT2.

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP06 Jun 2025 8:42 p.m. PST

Empire has at least 10 different morale classes. That's certainly qualifying. 😄
Rules that refer you to charts that lead you to charts that …. Yup. That qualifies.
Anything that requires 5 minutes to adjudicate anything qualifies.
If you can get up and go to the restroom while your opponent tries to figure out what to do in a 10 second Real Time "bound", it qualifies.

Any rules that use "bound" in place of "turn" qualifies. If you think that's realistic, you're just kidding yourself.

Shagnasty Supporting Member of TMP07 Jun 2025 8:59 a.m. PST

Right on John!

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP07 Jun 2025 11:53 a.m. PST

Good calls, OFM. My own quick test is to flip through the rules and see whether I can find and understand how to move, how to inflict casualties, how to test for morale and whether or not there is a command and control system. I don't say I have to be able to remember the tables, but if the mechanism isn't simple and obvious--well, there's lots more rules out there.

Personal logo miniMo Supporting Member of TMP07 Jun 2025 12:57 p.m. PST

Empire III had a fold-out flow chart for each phase of the game. That's a definite qualifier.

My top vote went to Tractics. The box packed full of tables with armour thickness and deflection values and weapon penetration values made for a literal laugh-out-loud and never play the game experience.

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP11 Jun 2025 3:44 a.m. PST

I'm wondering how you would objectively measure the complexity of a set of miniatures rules.

You have to start with "What is a set of miniature wargame rules?" It's a piece of software designed to implement a simulation.

People might balk at the two nouns up there. By software, I just mean a set of instructions intended to be executed in a formal, procedural way. Whether or not you play a set of rules "straight" has nothing to do with the defintion of rules. You are simply creating a different set of rules by written modification, agreement, on the fly changes, or several other means.

This gives us a basis for complexity metrics. Here's my top ten:

1. Rule Length / Word Count – Total number of words/pages in the rulebook.
* A coarse proxy for density and scope.
* Often used in studies of game accessibility lots of places use count metrics like this.
* It's objective, but it is as useful a judge of content as the word count requirement in school essays, or how many bytes a program occupies.

2. Rule Count – Total number of unique rules or clauses.
* Simple baseline; more rules usually means more complexity.
* Doesn't account for rule interactions or difficulty of comprehension. A rose isn't a rose isn't a rose.
* In computer science they call this idea Source Lines of Code (SLOC)

3. Decision Points per Turn (DPT) – Number of distinct choices a player must make each turn.
* Highlights player cognitive load.
* Similar to "branching factor" in chess AI analysis.

4. Interaction Density – Average number of rule interactions triggered by a single rule or action.
* Captures complexity during play.
* Similar to cyclomatic complexity in software testing.

5. Lookup Frequency – How often players must reference the rulebook or charts.
* Can be empirically measured during playtests.
* Audience Dependent. Since we have no way to know what the population of "all wargamers" is, we have no way to estalish a good random sample.

6. Game State Space – Theoretical number of unique configurations (units, terrain, objectives).
* Higher state space often correlates with planning complexity and replayability.
* Similar to complexity in game theory and AI (e.g., Go vs. Tic-Tac-Toe).

7. Cognitive Load – Working memory burden required to execute valid moves.
* Can be estimated using task analysis (e.g., number of concepts a player must juggle).
* Sweller's Cognitive Load Theory, etc. Really needs a controlled environment.

8. Rules Entanglement – Degree to which understanding one rule depends on others.
* Highlights conceptual or procedural bottlenecks.
* Dependency graph analysis (rules-as-nodes, dependencies-as-edges).

9. Ambiguity Quotient – Proportion of rules open to multiple interpretations without clarifying text.
* Derived from expert review or Natural Language Processor ambiguity scoring.
* Ambiguity is audience dependent. Even using an AI NLP, since the score depends on the subjective decisions of the algorithm developers and trainers.

10. Granularity of Simulation -Level of abstraction (e.g., individual soldier vs. brigade).
* Lower granularity often leads to higher complexity per rule, even with fewer rules.
* Modeling & simulation literature (Davis & Hillestad, 1993).

11. Resolution Method Complexity – The mechanical complexity of resolving actions (e.g., d6 vs. differential equations).
* "To hit" roll + "to wound" + "armor save" → 3-step complexity.
* Minimum expression complexity (the simplest way to mathematically express a process) is objective, but not common. This leaves out simplicity gained by a rule that is "intuitive" to a specific audience.

TimePortal11 Jun 2025 1:03 p.m. PST

A vendor back in the 1990s, produced a set of WW2 skirmish rules. Each turn was 5 seconds or less. Took forever to reload weapons.
Watched it played at Historicon. I could handle the slow pace.

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