"Alternate History Divergence Points" Topic

"Alternate history exists in the orange zone for me – the constant need to stay on the alert for bad actors swiftly drains the fun from the exercise. But the concept is fun, so I dabble on my own from time to time. Here's a bunch of dabbling – while writing it popped into my head that these are some excellent backdrop events for Esoteric Enterprises games…."

More here

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Armand

That's not a very good "Divergence" list since it has so many fantastical BIG things, like "The Sahara remains verdant up through the modern day."

That's not a "Divergence," that's a total re-write of Earth's climate history and planetary geophysics.

A "Divergence" is a small change leading to a big consequence. Here's one that COULD very easily have happened, but is not on that list: What if Nixon beat Kennedy in 1960?

The 1960 election was a close race, so close it was essentially decided by the nation's first live televised presidential debate. The Nixon and Kennedy campaigns had agreed on the format, and also agreed to do the debate "aux naturelle" — that is, with no make-up on either candidate.

The Kennedy campaign broke that pledge and took the debate seriously. They kept JFK in a hotel for several days drilling him on TV technique and practicing his lines and debate style. The Nixon campaign took the debate less seriously, as just one more check box to do. Nixon spent the day of the debate on the campaign trail, keeping to a grueling meeting and event schedule –while recovering from a cold.

The Kennedy campaign spruced up JFK — they made sure he wore the right clothes, they made sure every hair was in place and powder on his face to cut down on glare from the studio lights. Not quite keeping to the "no make-up" agreement. JFK looked rested, healthy and confident to the TV audience. In contrast, Nixon showed up after a long campaign day, in a rumpled suit and heavy 5 o'clock shadow. He looked tired and unkempt, the hot TV studio lights making him sweat.

After the debate, those polled who had listened to the debate on the radio thought Nixon had won the debate — that he seemed more authoritative, that he was in more command of policies and the issues. In contrast, those who watched the TV debate thought JFK had won — that he seemed youthful, trustworthy, and more vigorous compared to Nixon.

But what if — what if Nixon's campaign manager had pulled him from his heavy schedule that day, convincing him to rest and recover from his cold before the event (as he tried and failed to do historically)? Nixon then would have not been as telegenic as the younger JFK, but the gap would not have been so apparent. Clean, rested, and in command of policy issues -- in a non-rumpled suit and clean-shaven, Nixon could have won the debate or at least nullified JFK's youth advantage, and been elected president in 1960.

So if Nixon is President in 1960:

1. Is there a Berlin Wall crisis, or does Nixon call the Soviet bluff?

2. Is there a Bay of Pigs fiasco, or does Nixon support the anti-Castro troops with US Air and Naval power resulting in the fall of Castro? Or does Cuba become a "Vietnam" like quagmire?

3. Do we have a Vietnam War?

4. Do we have an Apollo Program, or does Nixon continue with the USAF projects as well (Mini-shuttle by 1965 (X-20 Dynasoar), Space Station by 1967 (Manned Orbiting Laboratory) and a Moon Base by 1970 (Project Horizon)?

Fun read. Don't skip the comments section.

A variation on Indians win has always been intrigued me. What if it was the Europeans who fell victim to the diseases. Coming right after the plague, the explorers bring back an even worse plague from the America.

This is an interesting list – the bear at the Duluth Sector Direction Command was not something I had heard about!

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Agree that some of these are more than divergences! Also missing a few

One that I find fascinating is if Sergei Korolev had not died (architect of the Soviet space program) at age 59 but had lived and got the Russians to the Moon first – the premise of the show "For All Mankind" which I think is a great period piece – many, many ripple effects

For our SYW groupies what if Empress Elisabeth had had the good grace to live two more years – by January 1762 the Prussians were on their last legs and it was clear that Elisabeth and the anti-Prussian clique in the Russian court wanted to reduce Prussia to a much smaller and much weaker state – if her dunderheaded heir Peter had not become Tsar in 1762 Prussia would likely have ceased being much of a player in central European politics and the future of Germany would have migrated south (and that might not have been such a bad thing)

What if it was the Europeans who fell victim to the diseases. Coming right after the plague, the explorers bring back an even worse plague from the America.

They did bring back new deadly diseases, the primary one is syphilis, which killed about 5 Million Europeans before a cure was discovered. And between 10%-15% of Europeans who travelled to the Spanish Americas died of tropical diseases.

If you swallow "alternate history" metaphysics 😄 every single point in time has an infinite number of "divergent points".
That's sort of, but not quite, what was posited in the Lord Kalvan stories. And the Paratime Police.
Interesting to speculate about, but we're kind of stuck in our current situation. Yes, I'm contradicting what I said above. 😄

13. Actually, Britain had drunkards drawing up the borders.

My own. Bill Clinton vetoes the law permitting mega radio stations to gobble up small radio stations. Disc Jockeys can still program what they play, instead of 3 mega programmers dictating what goes on the radio.
Pop and Country Music continue to thrive and produce quality music, and we are not stuck with the swill and garbage that passes for music on the radio today.

When in doubt, blame Clinton.

What if Buddy Holly stayed on the bus, instead of taking that plane.

I'm not sure that the Bay of Pigs invasion was a good thing to begin with. It would have probably failed anyway.
Its main purpose was to restore Batista and the Mafia. It deserved to fail. And it drove Castro into the arms of Russia.
No Vietnam? That would have been a good thing. Then Allen Dulles would have assassinated Nixon.

For me it's a few WW2 ones.

1: What if Spain had joined the Axis powers in say, 1937-1938?

2: What if Spain had joined the Allied Powers in 1939?

3: What if Italy had declined to join the Axis and Mussolini had declared that Italy, (like Spain), would remain neutral?

4: What if Mussolini for some reason decided that "Adolf was off his rocker", and not only declined to join the Axis, but instead threw support in for the Allies in 1939?

1: What if Elvis had fired Parker after the 68 Comeback Special?

2: What if the Trump assassination attempt had succeeded?

3: What if the JWB was apprehended before shooting Lincoln? How would Reconstruction have played out?

4: What if the orders wrapped in cigars outlining Lee's invasion of Maryland, had not been found?

5: What if Jackson had not been shot, or even if shot, had survived?

6: What if Jackson was at Gettysburg?

7: What if Meade had decided to follow his original idea and pull back and make his defensive stand at Pipe Creek?

1: What if Elvis had fired Parker after the 68 Comeback Special?

Then Elvis would have recorded "I Will Always Love You", and Dolly wouldn't have a broken heart.

What would happen if the French didn't declare war on the British in 1778?

Thanks

Armand

What would happen if the French didn't declare war on the British in 1778?

They would have still been sending lawyers, guns and money. 😄
Google Hortalez et cie.
Everything short of an actual declaration of war.

But I still think the US would have won, but maybe taking an extra year. But that's another discussion entirely.

The real issue was how much it cost the French financially, leading to the French Revolution. Debt may not have been the ONLY cause, but it certainly was A cause.

The real issue was how much it cost the French financially, leading to the French Revolution. Debt may not have been the ONLY cause, but it certainly was A cause.

That's what I was wondering, John. I don't know much about later-C18th happenings, but do know that the 1788 chapter of the perennial Anglo-French war had an effect on both sides of the Atlantic. That extra burden of taxes, needed to finance going back to war and supporting the American rebels, may have been the last straw for the French peasantry and middle classes. So France not getting involved may have delayed, if not prevented the Revolution. I agree, the Americans would probably have won, but it could have taken longer and may have meant less than 13 colonies sticking it out (nearly uninformed guesswork on my part, though).

On a major plus side- no Revolution means (probably) no massive "arguments" about Waterloo, Marengo, Boney, Nosey and Fatty.

What if Luther had like being a lawyer?

What if the privateers had gone to Plymouth instead of Jamestown?

What if the northern colonies instead on ending slavery as part of the revolution?