"Scots Greys or Scots Bays.....?" Topic

At a recent Napoleonic gathering (Under Eagles To Glory II in Derby, England, since you ask), a number of well known myths were being debunked in a group discussion, but there was one I had never heard before that went like this…..

When Napoleon abdicated in 1814, the British Army immediately "downsized" (well done, politicians, because that's never gone wrong before, has it?) and the Royal Scots Greys sold off a load of horses. Then, a year later, they had to rapidly re-kit with new ones and had to take what they could get. As a result their famous charge at Waterloo was made on gee-gees that were considerably more diverse than the slo-mo efforts of the Moscow Militia and State Circus stunt men would have had us believe.

Has anyone else come across this or know more about it?

If it is true, perhaps the imperfect training of the "new" horses might – at least partially – explain the indiscipline of the Union Brigade following the defeat of D'Erlon's infantry.

Sorry, not quite sure what happened there!

Not sure of horses training but there is a long documented history of British cavalry getting carried away in the Napoleonic wars so doubt its the horses issue

Not sure of the army down sizing. Still at war with America, in fact a couple of Wellingtons veterans were sent there.

I think this is the article you are looking for.

PDF link

The Greys were reduced from 10 to 8 troops in 1813 but there were only 6 at Waterloo so they would be expected to have a surplus of men and horses. They disposed of 200 greys and about 120 bays/browns in 1814. The number of bays is a surprise and more were disposed of in 1816 but I imagine they would have preferred to dispose of bays first rather than greys.

I expect that they would have kept the best horses and men so I think that there is danger that a new myth is being generated here.

Did Napoleon really say at Waterloo, "Those terrible grey horses; how they fight" or is that also a myth?

Utter rubbish, the british army was still part of an occupation force in France and was shipping regiments to Canada and the west indies,and other colonies it had its hands full plus resting alot off tired regiments. As for disposing of an active regiments horse that require huge training time to relplace is ludicrous. The selling off of extra horses when not at war was common, not as many to replace as there not getting shot – more people reading and drawing conclusions that are noit there , ussual people making stuff up to sell you something

I think those terrible greys is something he might have said as they charged into the grand battery because the one and only Napoleon on screen Rod Steiger said so

The Waterloo Podcast hasn't got to the Union Brigade yet, but should be a good informative video

Considering the 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys) did almost b****r-all after 1795, I can't see that they would have had a history of struggling to get grey mounts for the officers and troopers.

Perhaps there's a mix up with 2nd Dragoon Guards (Queen's Bays)? That regiment saw no action in the Napoleonic wars at all!

"Those terrible grey horses; how they fight" -

There are various quotations attributed to l'Empereur, expressing his admiration of the fighting qualities of certain British regiments.

In addition to the Greys above, Another notable one refers to the 27th Inniskilling(or Enniskillen, if you will) whichj can be found in various forms, the regiment today (The Royal Irish) seems to favour:
<i<‘That regiment with the castles on their caps is composed of the most obstinate mules I ever saw; they don't know when they are beaten' but is perhaps confused since elsewhere they offer:
'I have seen Russian, Prussian and French bravery, but anything to equal the stubborn bravery of the regiment with castles in their caps I never before witnessed'

A. E. C. Bredin, in his 'A History of the Irish Soldier' (1987) offers 'Anything to equal the stubborn bravery of the Regiment with castles in their caps I have never before witnessed.'

Strange to say, in Trimble's 'Historical Record of the 27th Inniskilling Regiment' (1876), there is no reference to any of this.

Whether in the smoke and chaos l'Empereur could discern or understand the distinction, let alone cared, seems unlikely (He did, of course, have that great big telescope).

This admiration coming from a man who- it appears- dismissed Wellington as a 'general de cipayes' and said beating him would be as easy as eating breakfast, or som such. And who, je me demande, wrote all these bon mots down for the dilectation of regimental raconteurs.

The same goes for the Scots Greys. Were they really so 'terrible' after being cut to pieces in the valley (having advanced at more of a brisk trot than pell-mell à la Bondarchuk)? It seems though that the French do call white horses 'grises.'?

According to Mauduit, it was claimed that during the battle Napoléon was sharing his most intimate feelings with his local guide Lacoste (Jean-Baptiste Decoster?). See this footnote:

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These words seem to have been cited to visitors of the battlefield as early as 1821. Maybe by Decoster, to whom they were addressed, himself:

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As for "I have seen Russian, Prussian and French bravery, but anything to equal the stubborn bravery of the regiment with castles in their caps I never before witnessed.", the earliest reference I found was in a book published as late as 2015. If someone knows the author, Dan Harvey, maybe he could aks him for his source:

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PS. Just saw the note by 42flanker, which I had overlooked. So Bredin in 1987 is the earliest traceable source.

Some armies had no problems with horse availability, England getting really not that many prime mounts shouldn't have have been a problem. They were only putting out a few squadrons each Regiment.

Paint the history or paint the legend? Paint the legend!

"Maybe by Decoster, to whom they were addressed, himself"

From late 1815 comes what is likely the earliest reference to the Scots Greys quotation. Make of it what you will. As a source it is not without its problems.

In the Scots Magazine for September 1815, an article 'Description of the Plan of the Battle of Waterloo' appeared, including a section entitled: 'Anecdotes of Bonaparteand' and prefaced thus-

"The following are stated by an officer on the testimony of La Coste who inhabits the house called Belle Alliance…"
(p.651)

[As action is joined La Coste is forced to accompany l'Empereur to provide imformation on the locality]

"He first observed: "How steadily those troops take the ground! how beautiful those cavalry form! regardes ces chaveaux gris!* Qui sont ces beaux cavaliers? Ce sont des braves troupes, mais dans une demi heure je les couperai en pieces. Observing how the chasms in the British squadrons were filled up the instant they were made by his artillery, he exclaimed, "Quelles braves troupes! comme ils se travaillent, ils travaillent très-bien, très-bien!
{*FOOTNOTE: Meaning the Scots Greys} (p 651)

[When all is lost, Napoleon withdraws to Belle Alliance

"… he halted, and putting the glass to his eye, saw the British cavalry, intermingled pele mele, and furiously cutting the French troops to pieces. He exclaimed, "Qu'ils sont terribles ses Chevaux Gris!" (meaning the Scots Greys, which had particularly during the day, and at that moment, attracted his attention)." (p 652)
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The officer in question would appear to have been Colonel Sir John Sinclair.

In 'The Historical Record of The Royal Regiment of Scots Dragoons, now The Second Royal North British Dragoons, commonly called The Scots Greys' (1840) the editor Richard Cannon makes reference to that passage, stating how:
"The martial appearance of the Greys in particular attracted the attention of Bonaparte, and he expressed his admiration of their excellent manoeuvring:, and the superior manner in which they used their swords, as appears by the statement of De Coster (Bonaparte's guide), to Sir John Sinclair."

But Cannon only quotes Napoléon as saying "What fine troops! he exclaimed, "What a pity it is that I shall cut them all to pieces!" (Note p 105)

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PS Mauduit (above) refers to rumours that the explanation for the reckless charge of the Union brigade, 'aimless and in spite of themselves,' was that they were fighting drunk but, although the troops had just received an issue of brandy, he suggests the more likely explanation might lie in the fact that English horses could not always be controlled.

"On eût dit que l'ivresse poussait ainsi ces cavaliers, sans but et malgré eux, au travers de l'armée française. Une distribution d'eau-de-vie venait, il est vrai, de leur être faite dans les rangs mêmes; mais la cause de cette charge extravagante se trouve peutêtre encore dans le défaut des chevaux anglais de ne pouvoir être toujours maîtrisés"
(p 298)

Mauduit was of course a mile away when the Union brigade charged – he was a file closer, an NCO on foot, I wonder when reading his memoires how much are fairy tails, camp fire gossip and real witness.

it is very tempting to paint some bays for the Royal North British Dragoons, so one can pay both the legend and reality.

I wonder when reading his memoires how much are fairy tails, camp fire gossip and real witness.

A fair comment on military memoirs in general. Mauduit's remarks seem reasonably circumspect regarding this particular episode.

Extracts from three articles by the Rev. Percy Sumner in the Army Historical Research Journal on the "Uniforms and Equipment of the Royal Scots Greys":

1693, 28th August – Letter from Capt. Andrew Agnew to his cousin Sir Andrew Agnew Bt., re the purchase of a grey horse. (See "The Agnews of Locknaw" by Sir A. Agnew Bt.; p 453.)

1694, Thursday, 19th April – This day the King took a view of Col. Cunningham's (7th Dragoons) and Sir Thomas Levington's Dragoons (Scots Greys) in Hyde Park, being two regiments lately come from Scotland; they made a fine show, especially the latter, who were all mounted on grey and white horses, and new clothed, more like Troopers than Dragoons. (Narcissus Luttrell's "Brief Relations of State Affairs").

This with the letter of 28th August 1693 from Capt. Andrew Agnew are the earliest mentions of the regiment being mounted on grey horses.

1788, 12th January – Letter from Adjt.-General to Lieut.-Gen. Johnstone (re. difficulty of obtaining grey horses at the regulated price of £23.00 GBP 2s.). (W.O 3/7)

1799 – Coloured plate in the "British Military Library" for September 1799. The letterpress accompanying the plate says: ‘The horses are of the usual height prescribed by H.M.'s regulations for regiments of Dragoons, and their colour iron grey, the Officers' and Trumpeters' nearly white. Present strength 8 troops. Total strength of regiment 683 of all ranks.

1799, 26th May – No grey horses shall be selected from the Fencible Cavalry except such as may be fit for the Royal North British Dragoons, which regiment is hereafter mounted on nag-tails. (W.O. 3/20)"

Unfortunately no more on the colour of horses…

Weren't white horses referred to as "grey"?

Yes, "grey" in equine language means a white to grey horse.

Or "gris"

However, it all depends on the colour of the the horse skin. White-coated horses with black skin are 'greys.' White-coated horses with pink skin are 'white' (It says here).

Yes, true white horses are rare. Most that we call white are very pale greys.

Cheers,
John

Utter rubbish…..<snip>…..ussual people making stuff up to sell you something

Wasn't it fortunate that we caught you on a good day…..