"USN sleepwalking into defeat" Topic

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"I'm sorry Admiral Kilby, but you are not speaking clearly. You are not speaking directly through a miasma of passive voice. You are regurgitating archaic and discredited cant from the cargo cult of the the Cult of the Joint.

Talk to your staff who are helping you prepare. Talk to yourself. Reset for the future."

Scary and true. Our military like most of our federal agencies, have ossified in place since the end of the COld War. Here's a comment from the article:

Shouldn't be surprised by the corp speak, they get their MBA and sound just like any ceo tossing out the latest phrases. If they're still following the high-low mix then allies are supposed to supply those small ships, until they don't or can't. Why build logistics ships when carriers are so much more sexy? I didn't have a problem with the USMC ditching tanks if fighting in the pacific is the plan, tanks need a lot of logistics from what I've read (not a tanker) and trucking parts and pol across the pacific to rough ports, if any, will be quite the ordeal.

I didn't have a problem with the USMC ditching tanks if fighting in the pacific is the plan

Yeah…about that…in Dubya Dunya 2 the USMC had no tanks at start, they were supposed to be infantry assaulting and holding islands. Until they found that Japanese bunkers were too difficult and costly to assault with infantry, and arty wasn't accurate enough…an so they needed tanks after all as support against fixed defenses and the occasional Japanese AFV.

The saying is "Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics".

I have no idea if this tsunami of equipment you've cited is necessary or not. My point is, where is the money to fund this huge expansion coming from?

I believe the US has a rather significant deficit? Likely to grow bigger if the tax cuts to billionaires gets passed?

And the panacea of tariffs & returning industry is generally acknowledged as a fantasy.

So, again, not challenging the necessity just the practicality.

Remember the Soviet Union? It fell for several reasons but the cost of the Cold War arms' race was significant. I hope the US could outfight the Chinese. Can they out spend them?

And who is the opponent that we are sleepwalking into disaster with? Russia or China, obviously. Perhaps a discussion about the capabilities and logistics issues of these navies might be helpful, along with their economies.

This exactly why Secretary Hegseth is clearing out the dead wood and political hacks in the top brass. He changing the culture back to the warfighter culture.

Next change the name from the DOD to the Department of War.

he saying is "Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics"

Logisticians say that. They like to feel needed.

If you haven't sorted out strategy and tactics then you'll end up with a repeat of Vietnam, Iraq, Aden, etc, regardless of what super-hot, infallible and sexy logistics system is put into action. Warfare is a three legged stool. If you don't put the same effort into studying and understanding all three then the stool becomes unstable- and eventually you'll end up on your arse.

All threads on Ultramodern MUST automatically turn into praise of the second string Fox News weekend personality, Pete Hegseth.
It's in the Constitution, and the Baltimore Catechism. Not to mention the bylaws of the He-Man Woman Haters Club. 👍

SB, except now the potential opponent has weapons that can stop those tanks from hitting the beach easier than the Japanese could have. I wouldn't want to be in a tractor coming ashore in a missile-drone environment. The idea of beach storming was poo-poo'd in DS and we had practically all the cards in the deck. Either way the Corps was concerned about the logistics tail in A'stan, just wait till it goes across the Pacific. I don't believe the USN has taken logistics seriously for at least a few decades outside of keeping the carriers fed.

SB, except now the potential opponent has weapons that can stop those tanks from hitting the beach easier than the Japanese could have. I wouldn't want to be in a tractor coming ashore in a missile-drone environment

Fair enough, just trying to point out the assumptions of US military planners pre-War didn't meet the needs of real war, and we should plan to be flexible enough to adapt as needed.

No one is sleep walking. There is what you must say to Congress and what every Sailor including the flags know.
We need lots more ships, subs, aircraft, missles, torpedoes, projectiles, mines, Sailors, and infrastructure than the budget can bear. Plus lots of new tech that we are still figuring out like drones, USVs, etc. On top of that better salaries to improve retention, more money for the VA, not to mention the other services.

SBm +1

I have no idea if this tsunami of equipment you've cited is necessary or not. My point is, where is the money to fund this huge expansion coming from?

I believe the US has a rather significant deficit? Likely to grow bigger if the tax cuts to billionaires gets passed?

And the panacea of tariffs & returning industry is generally acknowledged as a fantasy.

So, again, not challenging the necessity just the practicality.

The last Admin priorities were completely skewed. Wasting billions on useless non-essential junk, programs, initiatives, etc. as they were beholden to their woke progressive wealthy doners, the socialists/globalists activists in Congress, etc., etc., etc.

A Republic's #1 priority is to protect and serve their population. We the people who voted them in. The funds may not be there for all the military requirements to keep the US and assist many in the world to be free and safe. But the last admin wasted so much $ on crap that did nothing but take away from the military's capabilities it is really criminal. And they all will get away with it and get rich …

All threads on Ultramodern MUST automatically turn into praise of the second string Fox News weekend personality, Pete Hegseth.
It's in the Constitution, and the Baltimore Catechism. Not to mention the bylaws of the He-Man Woman Haters Club.

Oh John … so predictable … so bitter … Everybody is allowed to have an opinion. But again, based the experience and training my former career, I think you and some others here are completely wrong about Hegseth.

Nothing I have not said before. However, IMO most who lead or commanded combat arms units at a tactical level would see where the SecDef is coming from. He is dead on about war fighters, combat readiness, the decay that occurred during the last admin's "leadership", etc. Which IMO bordered on criminal. And they all got away with it. But again, everybody is entitled to an opinion. Even me …

BTW, during the last admin the name of the He Man Woman Haters Club was going to be changed to be something using pronouns, being more woke, progressive and inclusive. Support DEI, CRT, and a number of other initiatives supported by the last POTUS, VPs, Dem activists, etc. But fortunately, many were voted out of office before that could change the club's original name.

Legion there are wasteful projects in every admin, and this will likely continue. First term Trump did zilch about the LCS program, and his Congressional minions allotted billions for ships that the Navy did not want to keep in service to keep the money flowing into their districts.

Again I ask, if we are so weak because of Biden, I have to think about the new weapons and ships that were developing in his time, the record high military budgets, even the jump in recruiting last year. The cost of woke training and its impact is just a guess, but I doubt it is the reason we became so "weak" in four years, during which we remained the world's number one military power.

So relative to the rest of the world's military powers, what makes us so weak? Russia is pretty burnt out, but they have nukes and some subs. The rest of their navy is basically gone. Their front line troops and equipment are depleted more than those in the west as a percentage, I would guess.

China has almost no war experience, a shaky command structure of Xi political appointees, and military political indoctrination training that makes Army woke look like a 5 minute wait at Starbucks. Far behind in naval aviation, subs, combat experience, amphibious capacity, dependent on a long fuel oil supply line, etc. They have nukes, and numbers that would be useful if we invaded China. They are having plenty of economic trouble. Are they better off and stronger than the US?

Not that either should be taken lightly. But we have been harsh about the degradation of US military capacity considering real world conditions. The pandemic played a role in recruiting problems and raised hell with logistics. We came through it better than anyone, with the strongest economy and military in the world, IMO. Tell me, who was stronger?

Of course there are problems. The Chinese are working hard to catch us, and their tech capability especially is dangerous.

The politics of development and procurement are not the kind of thing Hesgeth has ever handled at this level. Some of those guys in Congress will have him for lunch and get whatever they want, IMO. And the whole thing is financially unsustainable with the tax cuts coming.

So tell me, which world power has the strongest military right now?

But Tort, isn't China ACTING like they mean to move against us, and Taiwan, pretty soon now?

The guy playing France can SAY whatever he wants, but if he builds a fleet at Brest he is going to attack England.

there are wasteful projects in every admin, and this will likely continue.

Not telling me anything I don't already know …

Again I ask, if we are so weak because of Biden, I have to think about the new weapons and ships that were developing in his time, the record high military budgets, even the jump in recruiting last year. The cost of woke training and its impact is just a guess, but I doubt it is the reason we became so "weak" in four years, during which we remained the world's number one military power.

Paint the picture wearing rose colored glass all you want. You can put lipstick on a pig it is still a pig.

Again, our enemies saw how weak the Biden, his admin, many activists in Congress were/ are. And they took advantage of it. No one … I mean no one can review all the footage of Biden's public actions. And say he was a good leader. A good leader is just the opposite of what Biden portrayed. He, his VP and much of his admin shouldn't have been anywhere new the WH or DC. Our enemies didn't see a powerful capable commander. And again, the Dems, media, etc. just covered it up. But many in the US and the world saw the USA was really leaderless.

So relative to the rest of the world's military powers, what makes us so weak? Russia is pretty burnt out, but they have nukes and some subs. The rest of their navy is basically gone. Their front line troops and equipment are depleted more than those in the west as a percentage, I would guess.

We are lucky the Russians under Putin destroyed their military. By making some very poor military and geopolitical decisions. We got lucky … Regardless, most of the US Military would have and done its duty if it had to. But having an empty suit of a POTUS. And the rest of marginal elected and appointed officials. Would have cost us unnecessary loses in blood & treasure. E.g. the very obvious A'stan debacle.

Again you can put lip stick on a pig, but it is still a pig …

The huge mistakes, errors, etc. that the Biden Admin made along with the woke progressive activists in Congress, etc. Will haunt the USA for many years if not decades to come. E.g. ridiculous open border policies. That horror is not going away anytime soon. As the Dems, activists, etc. are fighting the current POTUS's campaign to clean up the mess for 10-15-20 million illegal aliens who are still roaming the streets of the USA. Under policies and initiatives sanctioned and supported by the Biden Admin, the Dems, many in the media, and a very wealthy woke progressive minority.

With just those things I mentioned, no real future historians will have anything positive to say about the Biden Admin, many Dems in Congress, etc. You really can't even call Biden et al a one trick pony. Unless you support some of the moronic initiatives that tried to alter reality. E.g. DEI, CRT, Transgenders, corrupted Green agenda, etc., etc.

Again a lot of blood on those hands …

Too political, I get all that Legion. I was not trying to make you repeat yourself. I am not selling Biden here. You have to forget about Biden for a minute and look at the various forces. Is there really any doubt in your mind that we have had the best military in the world regardless of who was President? That is the topic. Do you think the Chinese or Russian forces are better than us?

Is there really any doubt in your mind that we have had the best military in the world regardless of who was President?

No organization, and no military, can do more or better than their leadership enables. Team Biden hamstrung the military with divisive and stupid policies enacted by "yes" men and women and crippled actions with poor decision making and micromanagement -- like on-side failure of Afghanistan. No we have a new team, and our security posture is greatly improved.

That is still not really what I asked. You make a good point, but it applies to every force around the world. Putin is not a sound military leader. Xi has allowed political loyalty to become a primary command credential.

Who has the best military in the world?

Island.

Who has the best military in the world?

Still the US – BUT, that doesn't mean it's as prepared or ready as it needs to be for a possible near-peer conflict with China.
Saddam Hussein had the bad luck to be the recipient of America's peak Cold War military. We were ready for a Peer War, he was not that kinda power and he got stomped flat. We don't have that peak power military right now, need to rebuild it and eject the careerism and bureaucratism and even politicization that's crept in since the end of the Cold War.

Yes you are right. But relative to the others we are doing pretty well. We do have to step up our game.

The Kaisers may be on their last legs, but the Chinese still use a naval militia of civilian craft for all kinds of tasks. Imagine commanding those in the Taiwan invasion as your first ever amphibious operation.

But ….we have plenty of work to do if we want to stay ahead. I totally agree with you last sentence!

Yes, it is a given that compared to the rest of the world the US military are the Top Guns on this planet. But like with many things it can get better … And that starts with leadership. Good capable strong, etc. leadership …

SBm +1

You have to forget about Biden for a minute and look at the various forces.

He was the CinC … the buck should have stopped there. We were often told as a leader, you are responsible, for everything your troops do and fail to do.

They are too many layers now for that to be true anymore. The buck never stops with either of the two recent presidents. Ask McMaster, Kelly, Mattis, Esper, McChrystal, Mullen etc. how many times do we hear, "I did not know this person or anything about it".And as we are finding out, Biden was even more unwell than anyone realized, his wife and advisors shielding him. Taking responsibility when something goes wrong is one thing you won't be hearing these days. It's part of another era, now gone.

Honestly many shouted how unwell he was before being elected, even on TMP. It was obvious if you have been exposed to relatives suffering from dementia/Alzheimers, he was suffering from it. Yes, there were news shows that talked about it too, but they were dismissed and accused of lying, creating doctored videos or making fun of Joe's stutter.

The MSM screaming deception, were instead willing accomplices in deception.

They are only now exposing it, because it's too late to keep Trump from being elected. Anything was better than Trump being elected. Even having NO President at all.

They screamed about Trump having the nuke codes. My God! You had a man who could not mentally function with those same codes and so many did not care. Anything was better than Trump!

Has anyone listened to this evenings tapes? They lied to you about that too.

"Shielding" is not the right word, nor does it describe what they did to the Presidency of the U.S.

Watergate was a walk in the park compared to this.

I watched Trump in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere this week. I watched Biden in the same situations. There was no comparison. Trump full of energy. Biden sleep walking, when he wasn't asleep.

What is truly sad, is people still believe the stuff being put out by this same media. "We lied to you multiple times before… but this time it's the truth".

Until it's not. 🙄

And as we are finding out, Biden was even more unwell than anyone realized, his wife and advisors shielding him. Taking responsibility when something goes wrong is one thing you won't be hearing these days. It's part of another era, now gone.

I don't think many understand what a real threat to democracy, the US and many on the planet the Biden Admin, Dems, media, left progressive, etc. was. A little game they played lying, covering up, obfuscating, etc., etc. that could have put the US and many in the world at our enemies' mercies.

They put everything before the greater good of we the people. And like BLM, Antifa, illegal aliens, criminals, etc. they will all go unpunished for their most heinous crimes. Making an example to others that they can break the law and get away with it …

OVI +1

Biden withdrawing from the race, being forced out, was evidence that most of the world got it, including the media, which had raised questions for months, should have for years. Only Fox among the MSM raised it, but they are a one trick pony and it may have looked like more of the same. The truth was kept hidden. Biden was unfit to command the military…his role in Afghanistan may never really be proven as far as tactical decisions.
Trump has many issues with the truth, as we know. He is somewhat forgetful himself and his transactional approach to everything is not reassuring to many. His command style in the first term was …chaotic. "Some are saying" this is on purpose. He may talk a lot to the press, but he says little.

For me, the jury is still out on whether he will be okay. Not a young man either. Rolling back the tariffs showed that he gets it when he is losing support. He can always say he meant to do it. But the threat to democracy is his discrediting the legal system and emasculating the Congress. He is trying for unprecedented power in the executive.

I don't think many understand what a real threat to democracy, the US and many on the planet the Biden Admin, Dems, media, left progressive, etc. was. A little game they played lying, covering up, obfuscating, etc., etc. that could have put the US and many in the world at our enemies' mercies.

The Biden regime WAS the Oligarchy the Democrats now accuse Trump of wanting to create.

Tort and others….. he was elected to close the border, send most of the illegals back, improve the economy and make the U.S. his top priority.

He accomplished the first in days. Why? The federal judges and democrats could not stop him.

He has tried to send illegals back. It has had limited success. Why? Federal judges challenging him at every turn. The media lying about some that he had sent back, attempting to portray them as victims and family men. Like the first term: "children in cages". These same judges and media had no issues with Obama or Clinton sending "millions" back with no hearing. Now it's the end of the world! Let him do, what they let Obama and Clinton do! Stop the impeding and crocodile tears!

The economy is too early to make any real judgments on. Policies are in play and we have yet to see them succeed or fail. Despite all the crap spread by the left. He just got approximately a trillion dollars of promised investments in the U.S. during his ME trip. The useless Congress (Senate and House) need to actually do some work! Give the Democrats their due, at least when they have the majorities, they stick together. Maybe that will change with the "Iron scowl" no longer leading them.

As to the last, he is NOT a "globalist" leader. He is a businessman. The U.S. comes first. This is unlike the Bush's who were both globalists, nor the agenda first, Obama and Biden administrations.

He said something during the ME trip that I thought was excellent:

Trump in Riyadh: "In the end the so called nation builders wrecked more nations than they built. Interventionists were intervening complex societies that they did not understand."

Thank God someone understands our mistakes in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. We win battlefield victories and lose the strategic war. Why? because politicians try to nation build after the victories!! ME countries don't want democracies nor do many countries want our women's rights and homosexual rights policies forced upon them. The Bush's, Obama, Biden and even Clinton, were wrong.

Doc – the concept of a "fleet-in-being" is an old one. Tirpitz was a great example of a practitioner. As long as you don't attack and lose your fleet, you can keep influencing events and remain a player

OVI & SBm +1/ea.

Buh-Bye West Point

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Armand

Should we make West Point into a technical school and just teach fighting skills? Buy Bye critical thinking. I think DEI itself is too political and radical, misguided theory, but it is also not a cancerous Marxist thought process. Was it diminishing the curriculum? Who knows? We are just guessing. Everybody used to learn French there but you did not hear Grant or Lee destroying their armies by giving battlefield orders in a foreign language.

How has anyone quantified the impact of woke and DEI on the military? I have asked this before. Not just anecdotes. In a group of a couple of million people there will be some range of thinking and opinions no matter what you do.

West Point should be apolitical as a government institution. This cuts both ways. The current focus on war fighting as the only thought process you need to command raises questions for laymen like me about how well you can judge your enemies in battle or in general, and how well you can fight when you don't understand why you are fighting.

The curriculum at West Point in the 1850s included ethics, political science, even though math and engineering, sciences were primary topics. History, also- seemingly not a strong point in current national leadership on all sides.

What was West Point created to do?
What would one expect a West Point graduate be able to do during a battle?

Sir! We are about to be overrun. What are your orders??!!!

West Point Officer:
🤔
"Should I follow the order of my superior, if I disagree with his politics?"
"Do I really have the right to kill my fellow human beings?"
"Is this a righteous war? Are we really colonial oppressors of the brown man?"
"Is Marxism wrong?"
"What would Professor Parsons say?"
"In the great scheme of the Univ……. "

Sorry, those were his last thoughts just before he and the rest of the his troops were overrun and killed.

I linked Parsons writings and papers earlier on TMP. I actually went out and read about him. He belongs at Cal! No business at West Point.

Do we want Alpha or Beta male officers? I know which our enemies want. Give them a Racheal Levine every time!

I don't agree 35th that being well rounded means you cannot do your job inthe moment. And people who commit their whole hearts to these fringe movements are in the wrong place. But just understanding the world a bit better doesn't mean you won't know what to do when the time comes. I would expect a well – educated officer to make better judgements as a critical thinker.

No better soldier than Joshua Chamberlain, liberal college professor from New England whose crtical thinking saved Little Round Top. Wounded and suffering life-long pain, he remained an academic, becoming president of Bowdoin and a role model for soldiers to come. What would he think about today's narrower views?

My belief is Chamberlain would have had puppies over TG's in the military and being told to refer to them by their chosen gender. I doubt he would have appreciated women in the military.

His college did not admit women until the late 60's.

"Bowdoin College officially became coeducational in the fall of 1971. The first women were admitted as students, marking the beginning of full coeducation at the institution. However, Bowdoin had a brief "experiment with coeducation" starting in 1969-1970 with 12 women through the 12 College Exchange Program. "

Besides, he was a lifelong Republican. 😉

Honestly, what I read of Parsons and his own writings, I would not want him teaching my kids, yet alone West Point cadets. I see him as no loss.

Is it the case that WP no longer does the "Duty, Honor, Country" thing?

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March a year ago. Bet it's back now.

Interesting – the Bidenites changed it from ""Duty, Honor, Country," to the exciting and thrilling "To build, educate, train, and inspire the Corps of Cadets to be commissioned leaders of character committed to the Army Values and ready for a lifetime of service to the Army and Nation."

Wow…inspiring words!

He was a Lincoln Republican, not much relation to today's party but the name. I would agree about Parsons.

Yes, Chamberlain would not have understood the transgender thing any more than you or me. He was a devout Christian. As we have said though, TGs made up less than 1/2 of 1 % of the military recently until they were banned. His college was like every other…almost no women.Those were the times.

Yes SB, typical Dems, way too many words…

I am against the leftest anti white and anti west indoctrination, which is what I believe teachers like Parsons perpetuate.

A perfect example of the results this indoctrination, was the radicalized murderer of the two Jewish individuals in Washington last night…. Elias Rodriguez

These people have been indoctrinated on many of our college campuses. With hate of the west, the white race and their perceived association with colonialist oppression against the brown man.

Go read my post in the Hamas thread this morning for more. We will follow.

Oh Tort, your remarks that Chamberlain was a product of his times and should not be judged by today's standards. 100% true. The same point many of us have tried to make when some on TMP try to do it with persons of the past when "discussing" the Civil War, the Founding Fathers, people like Boone.. etc. 😉

Did you know Chamberlain had to use a catheter and bag most of his life due to the CW wound? I didn't till I was reading some information yesterday.

I did not know that. I did know that he suffered for the rest of his life from wounds at Petersburg. A true citizen soldier, like many others on both sides.

I think that many protesters here arrived already indoctrinated, or at least primed. I went to college the year of Kent State, had seen race riots, much turmoil. College taught me how to think, not what to think. I read Marx! A hopeless bunch of nonsense and a tough slog. I know why Communism does not work. I did not become indoctrinated!

I too went in the 70's. I had professors who tried to indoctrinate us with their views. I spit back their own words on tests, got my A's and B's and disregarded their leftist views. Those pushing indoctrination were fewer then though. Most just taught the subjects.

It takes a certain type of person to become indoctrinated. People similar to those who followed Jim Jones, Charles Manson and others like them. I do agree those we let in from ME countries do come in with those views already well set.

Today's Republicans are worthy heirs of Lincoln. Far from perfect but devoted to some sound moral principles which contrast strongly with the other party's. On life, for example.

Neither are worthy heirs, doc. No integrity.

But today's Democrats ARE worthy heirs of the Democrats of the Civil War…

As I said, neither. Those were very different agendas than now.

Sound moral principles ?? That's a good one !

As opposed to the unsound immoral principles of the other side Dagwood. 😂

Each side has issues with integrity and a roster of imposters who are in politics for the money. Each side has ideologues, wealthy elites, biased media outlets. We cannot stand like this for too much longer, but neither side will concede a single point, fearing a loss of power.

Our ways of seeing reality are so fundamentally different now that no one currently in politics can unite us as outlined in the founding principles. Checks and balances are cracking under the pressure. This may be what 1860 felt like.