"Pakistan vs India: a story" Topic

About 25 years ago I had a 12th grade class that included two girls, roommates in the dorm, and one was a Hindu (American citizen but parents immigrated from India) and a Pakistani Muslim. They were friends, as much as roommates are. The topic was immigration and I expressed the general American hope and expectation that people coming here would leave their old-world hostilities behind -- though of course in practice that often is not the case. I mentioned that India and Pakistan were both nuclear powers and had border skirmishes over Kashmir (where the sweaters come from). Then I asked the Muslim girl, rhetorically, whether she had any plans to murder her friend in her sleep, and of course she said no. Why not, I asked, expecting a feelzgood answer about the sisterhood or something. But the Pakistani girl smiled and said "because it wouldn't liberate Kashmir."

The implication, which I got but I think no one else did, and I did not point out, was that if such an act WOULD liberate Kashmir she would certainly consider it.

The news today is good.

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Let's hope it stays good.

Mike

Kudos to trump and Rubio, though a temporary ceasefire is probably as much as can be expected.

Unfortunately both sides are accusing each of breaking it. But from reading stories, it sounds more like Pakistan or Islamic radicals.

Some feuds can never be resolved and need very little to kick off. People live in harmony until the controlling process lapses. Yugoslavia post Tito, Armenia v Azerbaijan are 2 that spring to mind as well as India and Pakistan.

Fun story, Doc. Means nothing.

You're such a literal person. Of course nothing was meant by it. People often – even usually – don't say what they mean & she was clearly pandering to you and the topic *you* brought up.

Try to broaden your understanding. Leon Festinger's theory on Cognitive Dissonance might be a fruitful area for you to research.

Ochoin, you evidently think you know and understand me, and also my student, better than I do?

You are such an arrogant person.

Doc +1

What's the matter, Doc, couldn't you see the joke ?

I have been watching English-language Indian news broadcasts about the current troubles. The level of animus is amazing. I could not find similar Pakistani programs to compare. As of yesterday, the Indian broadcasters were convinced that the initial response to India's strike on the terrorist camps was forced by the chief of the Pakistani Army and that the many violations of the ceasefire were attempts by the military to undo the ceasefire. I found it interesting that the Indian commentators were talking up the belief that Pakistan was attempting to personally disrespect President Trump by violating the ceasefire. After listening to the Indian commentators hope that India would "slap down" Pakistan to the point that it would not be capable of attacking India again, I have the impression that the Indians public would have been very happy if the U.S. had not interfered.

China was called-out as the puppet-master of Pakistan. The talking heads, including ex-Indian military officers, did not mention Russia at all, even referring to Russian supplied weaponry, such as Mig aircraft and S-400 air defense systems as "our" weapons. I got the impression that the point was to downplay any assistance provided to India by third-parties. Come to think of it, the Indian Rafale fighters were not attributed to France while the Pakistani aircraft were specifically referred to by their country of origin, i.e., Chinese and American fighters and American AWACS and other aircraft that were reported as being "wiped-out" by superior Indian weapons and tactics. One exchange I saw was on CNN India during which one of the "experts" being interviewed called-out the CNN news reader for her networks biased and "woke" reporting on the current exchanges. At least CNN is viewed consistently across national borders.

I can certainly understand India's position and presumably Pakistan's similar position. In 2 or 3 generations India has transformed itself from a subjugated colony to an economic powerhouse (economically, I have the impression that Pakistan is a failed state). India's people would not want to be reminded that it may still require assistance to produce a modern military. This is natural, I suppose, the U.S. is also quick to downplay any foreign assistance to its military (British main gun design on the Abrams?). The horrors on both sides of the border that arose from the Partition are still within the living-memory of the Indian and Pakistani peoples. Throw into the mix religious beliefs, I suspect that we will be seeing further dust-ups in the future.

We will be fortunate if they are no worse than dust-ups.

Red Jacket it goes much further back.

"Islamic armies conquered and ruled Northern India for some 500 years, 1,200 to 1,700 roughly. Islam's conquest of India was indeed a protracted and a bloody affair, but it did not fully succeed. It failed to subdue the southern provinces of the country."

The hate is deep and flairs often.

This article confirms much of what you wrote, especially about the differences in perspectives of India and Pakistan

Subject: Vance called Indian prime minister to encourage ceasefire talks after receiving alarming intelligence, sources say | CNN Politics


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I'm listening to a podcast that is reporting the direct attack on a Pakistani nuclear storage site by the Indian Air Force. If this is accurate, all bets may be off. There are also reports of increasing exchanges between the two nations. Seems as if the ceasefire has failed.

35th OVI, thanks for your comment. I should be more accepting that national feelings can go back much further than I generally consider. My Polish immigrant grandparents often spoke disparaging about not just Russians and "Bolsheviki," but also Swedes and Mongols. As they had no formal education before they came here, that is a very long national memory for a nation that did not even exist during their lifetimes, before settling in the U.S. I guess that is similar to the collective memory of many of the American Indian tribes. Having spent a lot of time in the U.S. south, I never really got the impression that there are still "hard feelings" arising from the Civil War. I may be wrong, however, whenever it came up in polite conversation, it struck me as being more of a joke. Any "Rebels" care to comment?

Revenge runs deep in the cultures of this region.

Well, perhaps I don't know you Doc. TBH I thought your little cautionary tale was fabricated. However, if you insist, I'll believe it happened. However, I know I wouldn't suggest to one 17 year old to murder another, even "rhetorically". Seems inappropriate to me.

Still check out Festinger – you may learn something.

As a sidebar to this conflict, it appears the Chinese air defense systems are garbage. They were supplied to Pakistan and used against the Indian air force with little success. More chinese Paper Tiger military strength?

ochoin, if you are calling me a liar we have nothing more to say to one another.

Wonder how old those Chinese weapons are?

Stone Mtd., for what its worth, the Indian media is claiming that at least 50% of the Chinese supplied rockets that have been fired in this dispute have proven to be duds. They show photos of several apparently different Chinese rockets on Indian territory. Perhaps this is why the Chinese always attack India in areas where they can only use rocks and handheld weapons? Given what we see about Chinese engineering (tofu dreg, front-line fighters with parts attached with bungee straps, etc.), I wonder if the Chinese military is truly a paper tiger? I recall that before Ukraine, the west was certain that Russian weaponry was cutting-edge. I am sure that some western systems are not as good as everyone thinks, however, western weaponry has proven itself in combat.

I hate to keep passing along Indian news reports, please tell me if it is too much. However, the Indians are reporting that the Pakistani government (attributed to at least 3 different people: PM, Foreign Minister or chief of the defense staff) has stated that they happily undertake dirty work on behalf of the Americans and that they are free to do the same for any other nation. That strikes me as a direct threat against the U.S. and a pledge to help anyone who will support Pakistan now. The Indians claim that the cease fire was negotiated by the Americans because the Pakistanis were losing badly.

Now the Indian people are supposedly demanding complete victory. I don't know what that would look like, however, given the choice between nuclear war or complete defeat, I am afraid of the possible choices that may be made by Pakistan. The Indian media are talking in terms of religion, "if you are Hindi, this is a proud day." Once religious considerations are allowed into politics, there is no possibility for reason. The TYW destroyed much of Europe and killed a huge percentage of population all in the name of the same God. What will happen when two completely foreign religions are faced with the nuclear question.

doc, sorry – I did not mean to hijack your thread. John

Fabulist? Spinner of yarns? An Aesop? I didn't say liar.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

This thread has palpable irony in that 'The Usual Suspects' are assigning negative character traits to foreign ethnic groups. Surely I'm 'allowed' to be dismissive of such nonsense?

RJ, no problem, very interested in what you have to say.

Having spent a lot of time in the U.S. south, I never really got the impression that there are still "hard feelings" arising from the Civil War.

I spent most of my time in CONUS when I was in the Army, '79-'90, stationed in posts in the South. I saw very little if any animosity from the Southerns. To us "Yankees", e.g. I'm from Ohio. Was not really an issue.

Revenge runs deep in the cultures of this region.

As well as in the Mid East. Again, is basically revolves very old long-standing distain for the other religions, ethnicities, tribes, etc. As we see very little has or will change in those regions. And frankly there is very little the West can do about.

China was called-out as the puppet-master of Pakistan.

China and Pakistan are no friends of the US or the West for that matter. And that has been the case for a very long time …

the Indian media is claiming that at least 50% of the Chinese supplied rockets that have been fired in this dispute have proven to be duds.

Chicom weapons that are exported have many problems. The stories from many places like A'stan, some places in the Mid East, etc. are numerous. However, the Chicoms like as we see the Russians still depend on numbers to attempt to "win". Of course, the West knows well the fact not to fight the Chicoms on their home turf.

It is a huge country with 20% of the world's population. Based on what we saw in the Korean War '50-'53 and the Chicom invasion of Vietnam in '79. They are more than willing to take high losses and fight a war of attrition.

We know not to underestimate your enemy. But as we saw in Ukraine. We all thought the Russian military was "Hell of Wheels" if war broke out. However, many were pleasantly surprised how poorly they operated in actual combat.

Let's hope we never have to find out if the Chicoms have the same level of "expertise" in modern warfare. However, it wouldn't be too much of a surprise if they turn out to be a "Paper Dragon" as the Russians proved to be a "Paper Bear" in Ukraine.

Having spent a lot of time in the U.S. south, I never really got the impression that there are still "hard feelings" arising from the Civil War.

I spent most of my time in CONUS when I was in the Army, '79-'90, stationed in posts in the South. I saw very little if any animosity from the Southerns. To us "Yankees", e.g. I'm from Ohio. Was not really an issue.

Revenge runs deep in the cultures of this region.

As well as in the Mid East. Again, is basically revolves very old long-standing distain for the other religions, ethnicities, tribes, etc. As we see very little has or will change in those regions. And frankly there is very little the West can do about.

China was called-out as the puppet-master of Pakistan.

China and Pakistan are no friends of the US or the West for that matter. And that has been the case for a very long time …

the Indian media is claiming that at least 50% of the Chinese supplied rockets that have been fired in this dispute have proven to be duds.

Chicom weapons that are exported have many problems. The stories from many places like A'stan, some places in the Mid East, etc. are numerous. However, the Chicoms like as we see the Russians still depend on numbers to attempt to "win". Of course, the West knows well the fact not to fight the Chicoms on their home turf.

It is a huge country with 20% of the world's population. Based on what we saw in the Korean War '50-'53 and the Chicom invasion of Vietnam in '79. They are more than willing to take high losses and fight a war of attrition.

We know not to underestimate your enemy. But as we saw in Ukraine. We all thought the Russian military was "Hell of Wheels" if war broke out. However, many were pleasantly surprised how poorly they operated in actual combat.

Let's hope we never have to find out if the Chicoms have the same level of "expertise" in modern warfare. However, it wouldn't be too much of a surprise if they turn out to be a "Paper Dragon" as the Russians proved to be a "Paper Bear" in Ukraine.

As of this morning, news says ceasefire is pretty much holding up.

JUST IN – TRUMP: "I said [to India/Pakistan] – let's stop it. If you stop it, we'll do trade. If you don't stop it, we're not gonna do any trade… and all of a sudden, they said, 'I think we're gonna stop.' And they have."

"We're gonna do a lot of trade with Pakistan, with India… we stopped a nuclear conflict."

OVI +1

Good to see an American "win" – particularly after just capitulating to the Chinese over trade.

Better recheck

"NEW YORK, May 12 (Reuters) – The United States and China reached a better-than-expected deal to temporarily slash tariffs, sending stocks and the U.S. dollar sharply higher, as the world's two biggest economies seek to end a damaging trade war that has stoked fears of recession.

The U.S. will cut extra tariffs it imposed on Chinese imports in April this year to 30% from 145% and Chinese duties on U.S. imports will fall to 10% from 125% for the next 90 days, the two sides said on Monday."

A deal that both sides seem happy with. That is called "the art of the deal"

Let's check that market

MARKET REACTION:
-- The S&P 500 (.SPX), opens new tab was 2.54% higher at 5,803.95
-- The yield on benchmark U.S. 10-year notes rose 5.8 basis points to 4.433%
-- The dollar index was up 0.96% at 101.56. The euro was down 1.16% at $1.11 USD

🤔

Market back up to January level.

Dow at 1,105 at this moment.

Deal with the UK and a 90 day deal with China.

But I'm sure it is painted as negatively as possible by the liberal press. Can't have the "Son of Beelzebub" looking successful.

"Yes there is deal, BUT……. DOOM! And GLOOM! Yet to come. 😈 🔥

Will it last or get better, who knows. But for now, it's a deal.

How does any of this work? We threaten to blow up the global economy, then we tell everyone to forget the tariffs, let's do trade and this stops a nuclear war. It sounds like a board game!

Good to hear from our Economics expert.

Let's check the facts.
Liberation Day – "looted, pillaged & plundered by nations near & far"
Capitulation Day -"the importance of a sustainable & mutualally beneficial trade relationship"

The rhetoric seems to have disappeared – as do the issues with a weak yuan, dumping cheap goods, trade in balances & tech piracy.
What has the US gained (apart from the possible permanent trashing of the dollar & its reputation)?
The US caved, in other words.

Of course the market is up – it doesn't care & recognises a Chinese victory, which is good for the world economy even if the US is now in a worse position than when the Tariff Wars began.

@35 I love your mindless optimism. It's sweet. Tort. gets it right. The bluff was called & exposed. It's called the "Art of the Fail".
Oh and there is NO deal, despite what the White House is desperately claiming. The meetings (desperately initiated by the White House) are "the first step" according to the guys with the whip hand. We call them "The Chinese".

@Ochoin… and we love your terminal gloom and doom and anti-US rhetoric.

You truly would be a perfect member of "The Squad".

🤔 Wait!!

Ilhan Omar, is that you posting on TMP?

That pesky conservative source NPR!

"The US-China trade deal, with its temporary tariff reductions, benefits both countries by easing the economic strain caused by the trade war and fostering a more balanced trade relationship. The US gains by reducing costs for businesses and consumers, while China benefits from increased access to the US market, according to a report from NPR.
Benefits for the US:

Lowered Costs:
The temporary tariff reductions mean that US businesses can import goods from China at lower costs, potentially leading to lower consumer prices and increased competitiveness for US companies.
Economic Stability:
The deal helps stabilize the US economy, which had been negatively impacted by the previous tariff escalations. The stock market has rallied on the news, indicating investor confidence in the new situation.
Reduced Trade Deficit:
While a more balanced trade relationship is the ultimate goal, the deal could also help reduce the US trade deficit, which is a major concern for the US government.
Increased US Exports:
The deal could pave the way for increased US exports to China, as Chinese companies are likely to purchase more US goods and services now that tariffs are lower.
Global Confidence:
The deal sends a positive signal to the global economy, demonstrating that the US and China are willing to work together to resolve trade disputes.

Benefits for China:
Reduced Export Costs:
The US tariff reductions will make Chinese goods more competitive in the US market, potentially boosting exports and easing the pressure on Chinese manufacturers.
Economic Stimulus:
The deal could provide a much-needed boost to the Chinese economy, which has been struggling due to the trade war and the global economic downturn.
Improved Relations:
The agreement signals a willingness to cooperate and resolve disputes, which could lead to a more stable and predictable trading relationship between the two countries.
Access to US Market:
Lower tariffs will make it easier for Chinese businesses to access the US market, which is one of the world's largest and most lucrative economies.
Global Leadership:
China benefits from being seen as a responsible global power, capable of working with other nations to address global challenges. "

1,161 up.. final Dow today. Up a little from that January level. Da#n it ALL!!

Will things last, who knows. But for today.. a win.

Tort my friend

You were willing to give Obama 8 years and Biden 4. Instead of jumping off the cliff after 4 months.. give things time. There a lot to scrap and rebuild and a whole lot of deep staters to filter out.

Look at one of his greatest accomplishments. He got the Banshee to return to Ireland, along with her girlfriend. A win for all of us, but not for the poor Irish. It could be as bad as the Great potato famine for them. 😔

Noted aerial warfare historian and expert Tom Cooper seems to think that India achieved "clear cut victory" with their strikes on nuclear weapons facilities, air defense and terrorist training camps. They lost some aircraft but they attrited Pakistan's capabilities and Pakistan lacked adequate means to counter. Pakistan reached out to India for a ceasefire. Cooper doesn't seem to think Trump's delegation had anything to do with achieving the ceasefire.

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As one who owns dozens of his books, I look forward to whatever publications Cooper puts out on this brief campaign.

As far as successes via their military's , both sides claimed them. Some may or not be true. Sources from both sides seem to differ.

Yes, I know it's hard to give the Trump administration credit for anything. The hate runs much deeper than normal hate. But this story is from "The Guardian", who dislikes Trump "a lot". (Read the end of their articles to verify that).

Both Vance (India) and Rubio (Pakistan) were directly involved. Pakistan will willing admit US help. India is notorious for not admitting any help. (Discussed elsewhere in TMP posts).

"Indian officials did not respond to requests by the Guardian to discuss the ceasefire negotiations. However analysts said India's refusal to discuss any US role in a ceasefire was indicative of the Modi government's non-alignment foreign policy and its bullish rejection of outside interference in India's affairs."

The U.S. had the major part, but the U.K. and ME countries were also involved.

But if it makes you and others feel better denying US involvement, feel free, and after all…, it may fail and then the anti-US and anti-Trumpers can gloat and jump up and down and dance in merry revelry.

Of course a failure, and we all may be worried about radiation ☢️

But maybe gloating IS more important in the long run. 🤔

As I've said, if only Obama and Biden had intervened early in the Ukraine and brokered a ceasefire.

Subject: From missiles to ceasefire: how India and Pakistan pulled back from the brink | Kashmir | The Guardian


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I have no problem giving credit where credit appears due. I have recognized both brilliance and folly in Democrat and Republican alike. Regarding the ceasefire or the military operations…I didn't give my opinion on the matter, I simply stated the assessment of a noted military aviation historian and analyst.

The United States is an incredibly powerful country and it's leaders can exert influence on global issues no matter how competent or incompetent those leaders are.

I understand.

Yes there are many sources that want to give full credit, some credit and no credit at all. Most based on their political perspectives.

My point: I give the administration credit for this, but not all and others were involved. It's a ceasefire, not a peace treaty. Hopefully it brings a treaty. But both sides hate each other and it goes back to the 600's not just Kashmir, and peace has always been only temporary.

But a ceasefire is a ceasefire and much better than the alternative, with 2 countries that have lots of nukes.

But somehow the same isn't done in Gaza? Smashing the place to ruin will not eliminate Hamas; but if the power and art of dealing is there, then stop that slaughter. Iran is on the way to being alienated, so Hamas will be toothless soon. Just one word to Benjamin Nuttyyahoo, or a threat of withholding weapons should be enough. After all, the same threats were made against Ukraine.

No one knows what smashing Palestine to ruin will accomplish? Hasn't been tried before. Nothing yet has worked to eliminate Hamas.

But as I've said since that October: Hamas surrenders, it all ends.

Maybe those who back them, should talk them into it.

"I never really got the impression that there are still "hard feelings" arising from the Civil War. I may be wrong, however, whenever it came up in polite conversation, it struck me as being more of a joke."

Nothing serious for my generation, I was born in '68. For us the battle flag was a sign of pride that our ancestors held off the north for four years, not a sign of hate. We were proud of the stubborn fight they put up and the brilliant victories won.

My father's generation was a little different. He was born in '36 when the war was still within living memory. There were people who remembered the burned cities and devastation caused by the war. My father was a southern nationalist who was convinced we'd have been better off if we won the war, but I never heard a racial epithet from him. There's a reason all those bases in the south were named after southern generals…there was a need to get the southerners to back the country.

"Please don't put words in my mouth. If you mean I discount most of what you write – well, naturally. Your efforts to make it personal smack of desperation. And what happened to that American vaunted Free Speech?"

Truly spoken by someone who doesn't understand how free speech works. A couple of things to consider:
1) You can say whatever you want
2) The government cannot retaliate against you for what you said
3) Other citizens can say what they want, and can ignore you
4) Since Ochoin comes from a country that locked people up for not wearing a mask, I'm not surprised he doesn't understand free speech
5) This is all moot because Ochoin blocked me years ago and won't see this post

I'm suspicious that Pakistan is acting as China's cats paw. As soon as India announced closer relations with the US government this latest fighting kicked off. perhaps I'm reading too much into the situation, but I am suspicious.

To quote the first five words of the First Amendment:
"CONGRESS shall make no law…."
(Oh, how I wish it had stopped there, but…)

Anyway, TMP is not a Government entity. "Free Speech" is what Higher Authority here allows.
I have been warned by Higher Authority, in no uncertain terms, not to pick on kindly old Professor Docmcb. So, I have oft resisted the temptation to call him on his….. Never mind. 🙄
I shan't call out the privileged old soul. He's written books, you know.

Vance, to his credit, said it was none of our damn business. But then he was sent with Litle Marco to pretend that they had arranged a ceasefire. Bless their hearts.
Both sides privately admitted that they had done it on their own, with no help.

As Clemenza said to Michael, these things happen every 5, 10 years to blow off bad feelings. Shrugs shoulder.

OVI +1

Dn +1

Again, I don't know where some living outside of the US and not US citizens get their news …

We all remember what Mark Twain said about the news media over 150+ years ago. And it seems to still hold true today …

The United States is an incredibly powerful country and it's leaders can exert influence on global issues no matter how competent or incompetent those leaders are.

So very true … Sadly it can be a double-edged sword.

Since Ochoin comes from a country that locked people up for not wearing a mask,

And the government banned all ownership of firearms, Australians don't have any legally assured rights, it's a socialist country, Crocodile Dundee is based on a real person, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

BS.

US gossip-mongers and lobby groups are very inventive when it comes to making up things about Australia. The closest-to-correct statement above is about socialism- at the moment we have a socialist government, but we're still not socialist. How can a country with a monarch also be socialist- they are mutually exclusive forms of government? When another country's citizens think that allowing any form of welfare is socialism, I suppose. (Though the current mob went overboard with welfare measures, buying votes from welfare-exploiters in the last election.)

Dal what you are saying about gossip mongers and lobby groups and Australia, is also true in reverse about the U.S. 😉 Our problem is, we have a whole MSM that helps to spread it as well. Non stories, half truths, lies or withholding of news, have become the norm.

Take care.

Legion +1

I know, mate. There's at least three gossip-monger companies (I won't call them media or journalists- it implies a veracity that they don't deserve) here that only portray the US in as bad a light as possible, particularly if the "wrong" president is elected.They were all horrified when conservative parties did well in European elections as well.

In a similar way to how Americans (and probably citizens from most countries) must feel when someone repeats myths or lies as truth, or merely to insult, mate, it gives me the irrit's.

I'll reply to your PM tomorrow, 35th. It's been a long Monday sort of Thursday, and my pillow is calling me.

Cheers.