"Are people stuck liking AOS?" Topic

Watched a YouTube video recently.

Chap gave reasons why he prefers AOS over TOW.

Mostly things that make TOW different, even better, like more rules and more complex movement rules.

I am left wondering, are some people so far into AOS, that they "can't" prefer TOW?

There is a term for it, but it escapes me.

When you have spent so much time, effort and money on something, so it becomes impossible for you to give it up.

I feel there is some of that going on.

GW took something good, replaced it with something less, now the good things back and people are having a hard time.

Ummm, please define both AOS and TOW, so I'll know how outraged I'm supposed to get.

Ha! Yes, ditto. I'm afraid I'm lost.

PS: Oh, I see this appears on the Warhammer board, so it's all wasted on me anyway.

Warhammer – The Old World (Rank and File game)
Warhammer – Age of Sigmar (More a grand Skirmish)

At least that is what I think they are?.

Correct.

GW (Games Workshop) blew up the Warhammer world and it became the mortal realms for age of Sigmar, or such tripe.

Now they have brought it back, only set a touch earlier, thank goodness, though I guess many people ignore the exact time line anyway.

I'm still not sure of the term I'm looking for.

Something like in for a penny in for a pound?

They spent all that money, got all invested, now Warhammer is back and they have to pretend to like AOS more, or may look foolish.

I suspect there are people in that camp.

Also because AOS may still be (if it ever was??) Seen as "cool" by some people.

Warhammer, of course, has always been cool, so no issues with TOW.

I also wonder if LOTR players may not be feeling the same way.

Both AOS and LOTR playimay be feeling fearful their game/s may (and likely will) get the WFB treatment.

Already there's talk of LOTR failing, as I have previously prophesied.

Another issue with all this is AOS may b giving GW false readings as TOW players buy AOS figures.

Skaven, lizardmen, other what nots, can all be used in the handy free army lists GW provided for the old armies not yet supported.

So while some, coughnotstormcasteternalscough, AOS armies may be selling well, they may actually be being used for TOW.

I'm not in that gaming world per se, but I don't think AOS took off around here. Anecdotal observation is that people continued to play with their old figures and rules, or migrated to another set of rules. Does "Kings of War" sound right?

I am puzzled by this "issue".
Once upon a time I painted up an almost complete Forest Goblin army. The next "codex" came out, and they were not lusted. However, I could, and did use them as ordinary goblins.
Now, having sold them off, I'm a 100% historical player.
I have large American Revolution armies. Sizable Pirate forces with ships, and am (very) slowly doing Comanche vs colonial Spanish or Texas Rangers.

If I follow the AOS and TOW logic you seem to be following, if I switch to a different set of rules, I'm not allowed to use figures I painted for the previous set.
In other words, my British Grenadier units, cannot be used in Land of the Free.

Can AOS armies be used in TOW? Aren't Orks … Orks? Aren't Elves Elves? Aren't Dwarves Dwarves?
What's the issue?
Does GW really have a stranglehold like you seem to imply?

I honestly don't play either and only ever bought GW figs to play other rules, or my own rules. However, are you saying more rules and more complex movement rules are superior to less rules and less complex movement rules? I would take issue with that. I have never found that to be a truth, but rather a preference.

I think what you are looking for is the Sunk Cost Fallacy, or a variant thereof.

I don't play either, but I think it's a matter of scale and preference. I don't have the time or desire to build/paint 400 miniatures for a rank and flank game (too many other projects on the go). 60? That's more my speed. Plus, I just like skirmish better. If I already had an army built and painted it'd be a different story altogether.

I never liked AOS. Did not like the rules overmuch. I really did not like the models.

But… but… won't the Games Workshop police kick down my front door if I use other companies figures?

Stopped buying when they changed to Age of Smagma!

But… but… won't the Games Workshop police kick down my front door if I use other companies figures?

Yes, in games played in their stores, and in officially sanctioned tournaments.
But, in the privacy of one's own home, a player can do as he pleases. But keep it secret. Be sure you can trust the people you play with! Keep it a secret, lest the Secret Games Workshop Hobby Police hear about it!

GW is monitoring TMP, and noting dissent. That's why I list my private domicile as West Ireland.

Seriously though, I find the "Games Workshop Hobby™️" a bit silly and pretentious.
They charge absurd prices for their goods.
They change rules and "codexes" for no reason, other than to "force" their acolytes to buy new ones. You can't tell me that this is an improvement. It's just to make more money.
We play 1st edition of AK-47, because we like it better than 2nd.
"We" (Mark, really) play a heavily modified version of Empire 5.
We stick with the version of TSATF that we like, and change it at our whim and fancy.
And, this is the most SHOCKING thing. We have been using the same Zulu figures for over 40 years, despite the change and upgrades to the Sacred text!

"Average" price for a 28mm historical foot figure is currently $2.50 USD +/- $.50 USD. Charismatic magic users, like George Washington, or Banastre Tarleton cost just as much as an ordinary mounted figure.
Compare that to GW pricing.

"Does "Kings of War" sound right?"

KOW by Mantic games is basically a Warhammer clone, and is another that people migrated to after Warhammers "end times".

So that's another lot of people who may be feeling the same way, in to deep with KOW to give it up, despite Warhammers return.

"Can AOS armies be used in TOW? Aren't Orks … Orks? Aren't Elves Elves? Aren't Dwarves Dwarves?
What's the issue?
Does GW really have a stranglehold like you seem to imply?"

You sound rational, GW isn't.

Much of the reason for AOS is so they could make up new names and designs they could TM. Orcs became orruks, or such, elves, aelfs, or whatever.

Yeah, it was a real good idea.

Now orcs and elves are back. Like they were in LOTR the entire time. Smack.

Also AOS has round bases. TOW has upped the base size, although that was a good idea, because if not now, then when? Either way base attention is needed if using almost any existing figures. But again, with all that shoulder rub going back years, if not cleaning it up at the start of the new edition, then when?

"However, are you saying more rules and more complex movement rules are superior to less rules and less complex movement rules? I would take issue with that. I have never found that to be a truth, but rather a preference."

I mean, it's silly to say Warhammer is worse because it has more particular rules. If that's the case, people should just go play out side in the dirt and not use rules at all.

There has been a dumbing down of rules over the last couple of decades, mostly from having included and free rules that no one wants to put the effort into.

"Sunk Cost Fallacy"

That sounds about right.

"Charismatic magic users, like George Washington, or Banastre Tarleton cost just as much as an ordinary mounted figure."

That is odd. As if you fill a production mould with a character, your not going to spin it as many times as, say a mould of spearmen.

So the business makes less money from that character mould. I guess, one character varient, vs 4+ spearmen varients mean the spearmen mould costs more to sculpt. Unless they use blanks also used for half a dozen other moulds??

I GW do a CG plastic character, and CG plastic individual spearmen, then design time is possibly comparable per varient. So they then sell far less sprues of character then spearmen. Also the character mould is smaller and it takes up more room for 1 figure, as opposed to 10 spearmen on a sprue only twice the size, perhaps.

"I mean, it's silly to say Warhammer is worse because it has more particular rules. "

Which I wasn't arguing one way or the other, but you do you.

"If that's the case, people should just go play out side in the dirt and not use rules at all."

If that is the case, why play Warhammer? There are much more verbose and complex rules out there. Isn't Warhammer itself dumbed down from more complex rules?

"There has been a dumbing down of rules over the last couple of decades, mostly from having included and free rules that no one wants to put the effort into."

Simple doesn't mean dumb. Complex doesn't mean smart. There are simple elegant rules, simple dumb rules, complex amazing rules, complex garbage and all manner in between. Again, I don't play AOS or Warhammer, so I don't have a dog in that fight- just saw that statement and did a double take as that's a bold statement, kinda like a Hawaiian shirt at a funeral is a bold statement.

"Which I wasn't arguing one way or the other"

I never said you were.

"Isn't Warhammer itself dumbed down from more complex rules?"

Warhammer has gotten so rules heavy at times, that is has been trimmed from time to time. Not to dumb it down, but to help make it more playable.

Then AOS happened.

Magic was an entire seperate box of rules and cards, then it was changed to simpler dice rolls, which had had proven success in Mordheim. This allowed people to use full magic (not just a couple of spells listed in the main rulebook) without having to fork out for a box of everyone's magic.

They changed any size units to 3+, 5+, 10+, so on. This bugs me and has become a persistent thing in GW and Mantic rules. Why can't you have 3 chaps larking about? I do understand why they did this, as it would make play testing easier, and makes more sense with the move to regiment boxes of 20 figures around the same time.

Things like that aren't dumbing down, they are just trying to keep unruly rules in order. Trimming dead wood, so on.

They are supposed to be professional rules, so hundreds of pages of endlessly tacked on guff doesn't look good.

That said neither does four pages from what is supposed to be a big company.

"Simple doesn't mean dumb."

I didn't suggest that.

People can go ride their imaginary horse with heir huge mustache, don't let me stop them.

"kinda like a Hawaiian shirt at a funeral is a bold statement."

Doesn't make it wrong.

I love Weekend at Burnie's.

As mentioned before, sunk cost is kind of what you are referring to, and that for both the actual miniatures specifically designed for AOS,(like Stormcast Eternals) as well as for more abstract reasons like finding an opponent or game store that supports it, comfortability, etc. How TOW has been received really depends on the store where I am at. Some are all in, and some are tepid.

And the people who were previously playing WFB and are now hesitant may prove my point.

If WFB was so good, why not play TOW?

Because they have become too involved with something else.

Also, remember, they were already forced (as far as new products) to stop WFB and look elsewhere.

Once bitten twice shy.

I get it.

After having to give something up, they don't want to have to choose to do it themselves.

Also they fear GW killing TOW as they did WFB, so want to avoid it.

I think it's a war of attrition.

If TOW continues, as it seems to be doing, it will only attract more new players and have more old players find the strength and the faith to move back over.

PS

One of the things some people (like little Irish girls, apparently) have been complaining about are the old figures (which were perfectly fine in AOS for… reasons???).

Now they don't have that to complain about with the new Cathay army.

Now anyone trying that tired old line will look foolish.

And if people can't complain about something, they find it hard not to try it out.

So new players will be flowing in.

And brand new figures in ranks looks far more impressive them a scattering of them desperately avoiding ranking up like so many AOS photos.

Add to this that the older figures will, going forward, be new figures to kids fresh of the street.

I dont do GW but I think if you want to play in their premises or at their events you do I believe have to go by the book.
So you have to decide if access to the GW community is important enough to take the financial hit whenever theres a change.

Fair to say that other rules systems have updates and new supplements but GW changes seem to be more sweeping when they happen. Also other changes generally dont make your models redundant-a Sherman tank is still a Sherman tank.

Of course its a business and commercial thing, constantly reinventing the wheel to generate more sales and fresh interests.

Up to the individual if they want to go down this particular rabbit hole.

I think there's been a big change somewhere along the way.

Companies, like reaper, GW, so on, used to have miniature ranges and, for the most part, just keep adding to them.

Metal figures endlessly added to the ever expanding ranges.

There are smaller outfits still doing this, and reaper, for example, still has ranges going.

However, at some point, the wheels fell off.

I suspect when plastic started being used??

There was more streamlining going on. Plastics had to pay for themselves, so you had to push the product, as it wasn't changing as fast as metal offerings.

Threw a spanner in the works.

Suddenly companies are having to sell a bazillion sprues of one thing, instead of less of any particular metal figure.

Throw in the likes of resin, MDF, what have you and everything gets gummed up.

And by that point reinventing the wheel was firmly established.

There are many parallel companies that show how things could be, like crocodile games, dark sword miniatures, for example. Ongoing games and ranges without the need for plastic or constant reinvention, just adding to existing ranges and adding more when needed. Some of the best quality I've seen also.

So it can be done.

But there is a stark difference there, between caring for customers and just treating them like dirt.

I am surprised the croc hasn't at least made a basic body sprue with four headless, armless bodies that could then have some metal heads and arms. Maybe generic shields for metal shield bosses. Just for sanity's sake. But they haven't, and that's fine. But a low cost starter box/basic units would be cool.

Reaper are sort of all over the shop. They have a growing metal ranges, but also bones, and whatever else. It does make things more confusing. I think they are like croc or dark sword, but want to be like GW, D&D, probably because they have too many owners.

That's probably the main difference.

One owner has full control and creative direction and cares about the product and customers.

Too many owners and you get the opposite.

I was quite into WFB but interest petered out after Age of Sigmar. I still have the armies, and still sometimes paint up an additional unit or enlarge an existing unit.

But focusing on D&D mostly these days.

But … a nearby friend who had one painted army was musing about doing battles again. I realized I missed battles, but really hated the WFB 1:1 scale and constant rules exceptions and fistfuls of dice.

We settled on HOTT. To look right for 28mm, we upscaled width by 2/3 to use Warhammer movement trays, but depth by 1/3 to play on a 4x4' table. It is a great game. Every battle feels like it could have been historical (with fantasy units of course). We always finish and some nights we play 2 battles.

That was rarely the experience with WFB – battles sometimes felt contrived, took forever, and often we didn't finish. And so many figures just to keep taking them off to mark wounds!

I have no interest in going back to WFB, although I did lately run into some of the players from the old days and they are doing The Old World, and I miss the camraderie. On the other hand they all live too far away.

Apparently GW went through all editions of the rules to make TOW.

So some of your issues may have been worked on.

They also upped the base sizes, so that may be a new one.

Though it did make sense, as it does resolve problems and was the best time to do it. However it's now impossible to play different editions correctly with the same army, unless using fancy base gubbins.

There will likely be future editions, so there's always the next one to jump in on.

There will likely be future editions, so there's always the next one to jump in on.

😄👍
Possibly THE most accurate prediction I've come across lately.
"New edition" is the lifeblood of GW.
It would not surprise me in the least to hear that their genius team is already working on the "new edition". In fact, probably the next one after that too.
That is their business model. Continuous churn. That was evident 20 years ago.

In this case, TOW, it would be appropriate.

It has had a long break and has had changes, so a clean up will likely be required, once it's audience has tried it out.

I suspect any new edition will be likely put with new armies of another time period, as far as their cannon goes.

For example the discovery of Lustria or such. Perhaps with one old army and one new army.

Sort of like Mantic does, so you can get a box with new rules and new figures. Then it doesn't seem like just buying rules.

Having the book seperate is good, so it's cheaper if you don't want the figures.

I can't really see the gripe.

These are books of rules for a game that is not tied down to a finite number of events, like chess.

Players will find issues, no matter how long it's playtested. And industry and businesses changes may also affect its use.

So new editions are needed.

For example, the current edition cleaned up base issues.

But now players are complaining about other things.

So new editions are needed.

Only if they need to pump more $$$ or £££ into the coffers.
It's hard to not be cynical when it comes to GW.

That's just incorrect.

Even free rules have new editions to correct or update them.

Gosh, if Warhammer didn't have new editions we'd still be using D&D figures on round bases. And many a favourite army would not exist.

Like them or not new rules editions are required.

Five years seems ok, as otherwise all the amendments start to confuse things as badly as all the extra book of additional rules. Better to clean house on a regular basis.

It would be great to have a set of rules that never needs revision, but I don't think that exists. There is always a way to make it better (or worse).

It would just be good if the rules could be cheaper. GW gave away the third edition of the hobbit.

I understand they can't be free, as they pay people to write them and the figures are already too pricey. Plus a new book may be the only money they get from someone with an existing army.