"Opinions needed on 1/900 and 1/1200 ships" Topic

I'm thinking about dipping my toe into Ancient naval warfare and I'm trying to settle on which scale and manufacturer(s) to go with. My time frame of interest would be from the Greek/Persian wars to the Successors period(including the Punic wars).

I like Valiant 1/900 but they were the only maker I could find at that scale. They are a little bit bigger than 1/1200 and they feel right in my hand(I have a pack from many years ago).

Langton and Ark Royal are nice at 1/1200 but it seems you have to order them from England and I'd rather not not have to take out a bank loan to cover the probable shipping charges.

Those are what I'm looking at currently, and I'd love to hear any opinions on those or any other brands you may use and how they're working out for you. Also, I don't know much about 3D printing. Wondering if that may be a good way to.

Thanks in advance for any input.

My comments in this 2022 thread still apply.

Since then I've ordered a couple lots of the League of Augsburg (Ark Royal) galleys. They are really nice models – clean castings, nicely detailed, good looking, a joy to paint and view.

Two additional caveats:

1/1200 models from different manufacturers generally don't mix well in a single class of ships. Navwar models are bulkier and blobbier; Langtons are taller and look bulkier; LoA ships are leaner and longer; CinC models are undersized. I recommend buying all models of a particular class of ships in a single fleet from one manufacturer.

1/1200 galleys are surprisingly small in person. If you're going to play sprawling actions with dozens or hundreds models, they'll be great; for small actions with up to a dozen models per player, they seem a bit fiddly.

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I agree that the old Valiant 1/900 galleys are the "right" size subjectively, and I originally set out to build fleets with them. I ran into two problems immediately:

1. Valiant has quality control problems. A lot of the models I have bought new from Valiant are utterly ruined by blobs of metal. The amount of carving and filing to fix these problems is off-the-charts unacceptable, and ultimately leaves a model with a visible deep flaw (like missing oars or a hole in the hull, etc.).
   
2. Not enough variety. There are no other compatible models in the market, so you have to get everything you want from Valiant, which means your fleets will look like mass-produced carbon copies.

I decided to change course, and eventually sold off most of my starter collection of Valiants. I only kept a few that would work as big or giant galleys in 1/1200 scale.

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Also consider 1/600 scale. The Xyston galleys are expensive and a bit cartoonish, but still look really nice and paint up really well. You can also get some variety and fill out fleets with cheaper models from Skytrex

PS: If you want to play giant battles that equal or even approach the historical fleet sizes (hundreds of vessels per side), look at the 1/2400 models available.

YA…to summarize my lost post:

I like Valiant but would like additional brands in that scale, especially with the quality control problems you id'ed.

The ships are for an Imagi-nations campaign, and I can see up to perhaps 30 ships per side being involved in a battle so I think 1/600 is a bit too big(and pricey).

I'm surprised there is so much difference between 1/1200 brands. I'm thinking that either Langton or LoA could provide what I'm looking for.

Navwar is a great brand, I have a bunch of their WW2 ships. They are quite adequate and the price is right, but didn't they just close up shop recently?

Also if anyone knows of US distributors for these brands please sound off.

There are no other brands in 1/900 scale. To match them, you can:

• Rescale STLs into 3D prints of the right size… if you can find them. I haven't seen too many ancient galley STLs, and none that I thought would be visually compatible with my lead collection.
  
• Scratchbuild. I've found it's pretty easy to scratchbuild galley hulls, but I get stuck on making the oar banks. There is no way to quickly fabricate them from bits of wood or plastic, and once I verge into sculpting and casting I'm ramping up the labor and materials higher than the cost of just purchasing lead miniatures. You might feel differently.
  
• Use 1/600 small ships as large 1/900 ships, or use large 1/1200 ships as small 1/900 ships. The cruder, more generic models like Skytrex and Navwar adapt this way most easily, since there is so little distinct detail.
  

If you just want visual sales pitches:

The LWTV video on their Actium game and then the followup video by Chris Grau showing how he painted them are the best advertisement I've ever seen for Langton galleys. They look really nice.

Barry Hilton is his own best advertisement for League of Augsburg ship models. Most of his photos are in his posts to the Facebook group Naval Wargaming (Historical). He's an absolutely fantastic painter, modeler, and photographer.

For smallish fleets of up to 3 dozen ships per side, I would totally go with 1/600 scale. A 3 dozen vessel fleet in line abreast would be about 5 feet wide, so on a 5'x8' to 6'x9' table there would be plenty of room on the edges for a shoreline and flank maneuvers (5'-6' is plenty of deployment depth for a fleet battle). The Xyston ships are as visually appealing as Langtons, but much better size for human fingers. The standard Xyston line gallesys (triremes, quinqueremes) are about the same table footprint as the larger Valiant models (heptares, dekares).

The best photos of Xyston models I've ever seen are on Olicanalad's blog. He probably cross-posted them here on TMP, but searching his blog is an easier way to find them. He's also a great painter and modeler, and his Xyston galley collection was a feast for the eyes.

Tony, the proprietor of Navwar, passed away last year, but his wife apparently has carried on with the storefront and casting duties. If you want Navwar models, buy them soon, there's no telling how long this will continue. I have doubts that anyone will buy the Navwar masters, molds, and casting rights when Navwar finally stops.

If you want to fight large battles at an affordable price an alternative might be 2D counters. There are a number of suppliers, some on Wargames Vault. Tinytintroops do a good range of galleys for your period in either 1/600 or 1/1200. The latter retail for around £5.00 GBP per set and there's a postage supplement to the USA of £3.50 GBP per order. So p&p for you for any size order would be £4.50 GBP. I cut the counters out and back them on MDF bases.
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I also have the Langton 1/1200 galleys. As Yellow Admiral says they are small and fiddly. A reservation I have – which others may not share – is that part of the cost and part of the visual attraction is in the masts and sail. But prior to battle these were taken down and either stowed or sometimes left on land. I know some gamers ignore this and have fleets engage in full sail but I don't. The bottom line (for me) is that there is little point in buying metal models when the aesthetic appearance is little better than a nicely mounted 2D counter which costs a tiny fraction of the price.

YA and Brunanburh…After watching the videos I really like the 1/1200's, and the 2D counters look nice too. I'm just not a fan of playing a wargame with the equivalent of board game counters. So, as this is not a primary genre for me I'll most likely go with either Langton or LoA, which will be cheaper than the larger scales, while still giving me metal models as opposed to cardboard counters. And they can be used on a smaller table as well.

Thanks much for the info and advice, it was very helpful.