"Do tariffs really apply to gamers?" Topic

Apparently, the US tariff system has a lower threshold under which tariffs are waived. Shipments under $800 USD are considered De minimis, too small to be worth the trouble of charging and collecting a tariff.
I understand that shipments from China that would normally qualify for the de minimis exemption, will be charged whatever the going tariff rate is beginning in May. This gives me the rest of April to place small orders with Chinese companies and hope they can make it here before the deadline. The idea being that some Chinese businesses hide expensive items inside an otherwise cheap shipment and thus abuse the de minimis exemption.
So, if I understand all this correctly, my usual $75 USD to $90 USD orders from Gripping Beast, Perry Brothers, Pulp Figures, and Eureka will not be zapped with a tariff charge. Yay!
On the other hand, I usually buy Copplestone and Games Workshop figures from their distributors here in the United States, who presumably order a large number of figures at one time, probably well over the $800 USD de minimis limit, so they will have to raise prices on their imported figures.
So, does somebody in TMP land know if my assessment is correct, or partially correct (more likely!), or totally wrong?

Grelber

A good question Gelber. Thank you for asking it.

martin

I don't know, but when I send a package to the US with a customs declaration form CN22, even though the value must be under GBP 270-00, you are required to work out the HS tariff number for the contents and state it on the form. That would suggest even at that value it can be charged?

Can you divide $8,000 USD order into 10 $800 USD orders all shipped at the same time?

Got me. I sold some old Elastolins to a Canadian maybe five years ago for well under $800 USD, and our neighbors to the north didn't have any trouble slapping it with a whopping big tariff bill. NAFTA only seems to apply when it puts US citizens out of work.

As far as we can tell, the De Minimis rules still apply to any packages coming in, other than those from China and Hong Kong.

I'd also expect that US Customs don't have the manpower to be checking and charging millions of packages coming in, so they're going to be focused on the containers and pallets where there's larger volumes and full import documentation.

Got me. I sold some old Elastolins to a Canadian maybe five years ago for well under $800.00 USD USD, and our neighbors to the north didn't have any trouble slapping it with a whopping big tariff bill. NAFTA only seems to apply when it puts US citizens out of work.

That wouldn't have been a tariff, just the Canadian VAT / sales tax. It applies to any package coming into Canada over $20 USD, unless it's a US package where the threshold is raised to $40. USD

So, if the goals of tariffs include ramping up domestic business and / or production, then they have failed. There is no line of would be miniature manufacturers clambering to produce minis domestically. Furthermore, the domestic sales vendor may lose business to overseas vendors. And prices go up for everybody. The United States almost suffered its first Civil War in the early 19th century because of tariffs. The Great Depression can be attributed at least in some part to tariffs. Tariffs do not work in the long term. At least not the kind we are facing today.

I'd have to take your word for it, Leon. The buyer seemed to think it was Canadian customs. I remember it as being more money than I got a middle man, and nearly as much as the owner of the castings got--certainly much more than the current listings for VAT. Anyway, I never tried to sell north of the border again. No point with a disincentive like that.

Hmm. Should note that a friend who used to ship castings off to Sri Lanka for painting had to fight regularly with US customs who wanted to charge him based on the value of the painted castings, not just the paint job. He kept winning, but he had to fight every time.

A government agency doesn't have to be right. It certainly doesn't need to win every time. It only needs to make you spend your own time and money--while they also spend your money and are paid by your taxes for their time--until you give up and do things their way.

Currently the de minimus rule only applies to limited countries, but that may well change at any time given the current approach.

Hard to say. I can only respond based on comments in news letters.
Prices have gone up due to inflation. Games that were $69 USD in one print run are $85 USD in the next. Or $99 USD in one and $109 USD in the next.
Alerts on prices changing after Kickstarter quotes can also be expected. As well as some expected increases in next print runs due to tariffs.

I ordered a game from Tumbling Dice UK just to see what would happen.

If things imported at small dollar levels are exempt that will be great news for some small businesses, but I suspect that you're going to see price increases more than 99->109, more like 99->150. Brace yourselves and hope it ends before small companies disappear.

Just heard Trump backed down. There is a three month pause with our allies on the tariffs.

Well, 10% for everyone, except China. You are still going to see some price increases.

Actually, the US didn't back down. At last count, well over 90 countries have taken the knee and are making appointments to meet with the USTR to reduce their tariffs on US products.

Tariff equalization is the end goal.

Clibanarium: I think that is how they will charge tariffs on small Chinese imports beginning in April. Yes, I suppose that the government could charge tariffs on small dollar purchases (like the pinata you brought from your trip to Mexico), but just now there doesn't seem to be any plan for that. As Leon Pendraken points out, they don't have the money or the manpower to check on every little package sent into the United States, not to mention all the things US tourists bring back.

20th Maine: Sure! That is probably part of the idea behind charging the Chinese for what would otherwise be de minimis shipments. Beyond that, the accounting people do look for patterns, and if you shipped me ten $800 USD packages a day, day after day, they would catch on.

Tariffs: Something I now know more about that I really wish to, and it looks like I will know even more before all is said and done.

Grelber

Andrew Walters: Please let us know how the Tumbling Dice order plays out!

Thanks!

Grelber

"At last count, well over 90 countries have taken the knee"

I thought you lot didn't like that.

Well unless you get them from China, looks like you have at least another 90 days.

"The tariff tit-for-tat between the U.S. and China escalated again Wednesday, with President Donald Trump saying that he is immediately raising the tariffs on Chinese goods to 125% over Beijing's "lack of respect" toward America, while pausing and lowering reciprocal tariffs on other countries.

Trump wrote that his reciprocal tariffs on other countries would be paused for 90 days, during which the tariff rate would be 10%."

Good opportunity to look outside China.

Market seems to be happy so far.

It's all about negotiation.

Some people behave as if their favorite football/gridiron team is down 7-0 in the first 2 minutes and will lose 60-0, even though the game still has 58 minutes to go.

GAMA tariff lobbying:

link

Wolfhag

Wolfhag+

35thOVI+1

@robert piepenbrink I would bet folding money it was taxes not tariffs, not that it ultimately makes much difference to the buyer and seller in these small transactions. I would also note that some nations have a customs fee, but not necessarily a tariff.

Using recent personal examples, I shipped to a Canadian buyer in BC who paid 5% GST +7% PST on the value of the item and postage. The latter was always irksome but since our descent to RoW rates in the UPU, it is obnoxious. Anyway, nothing was due to customs but it was still a 12% whack on the declared item value plus the postage.

It is not just tariffs. In the last few years the cost of international postage seems to have gone through the roof.

The de mimimus problem with Communist China is they ship Fentanyl and per-courser chemicals in small packages and declare them as less than $800 USD value. So the consideration has been to eliminate that route of shipping from there.
As many as 70,000 Americans have died of drug overdose, mostly Fentanyl from China every year for several years now.
That's more than we lost in Vietnam, but every year.
I am glad we are getting serious about it.

Mike

Since most of the 54mm/60mm collectors' market toy soldiers come from China, I'd expect to see prices for those figures increase. Indeed, one dealer on the West Coast has indicated that they will be increasing prices for items sourced in China.

I feel bad for this niche in the historical miniatures industry as the majority of figure brands are made in China.

Worthington just sent out a message on the tariffs and their games. They are having a huge. Pre-tariff sale.

Trump is gloating about how many countries are lining up to kiss his ass over tariffs. What a diplomat! 👍👍👍
America should be so proud. USA! USA! USA!

Which 90 countries backed down?

I heard a guy at a sales meeting (?🙄) brag about what a rush he got from fentanyl. Nobody gets involved who doesn't know.
I'm not about to hold that against China. That's OUR PROBLEM! Not theirs.
Sorry (not sorry) if that offends anyone.

"Which 90 countries backed down?"

All of them of course.

"Tariff equalization is the end goal"

I thought the end goal was a zero balance of trade with every individual trading partner. The tariffs set by the US government recently bear no relation at all to those set by other countries, but instead are based on the size of the trade deficits. Well good luck with that.

Anyway, the bond markets have spoken and don't like what they see.

I think Mr Trumps comment that the countries trying to negotiate were 'Kissing his ass' was disgraceful. Would he have preferred an all out Trade War?

Martin, have someone explain the concept of "non-tariff trade barriers" to you, though I agree a balance of trade with each country is neither a likely nor a desireable outcome.

But I had a front-row seat when our trade liberalization closed factories all over the state, and all we got in return were lower prices so unemployment payments went further. If someone has a plan to restore industry, I'm prepared to listen.

a balance of trade with each country is neither a likely nor a desirable outcome.

It is a fiscal impossibility. A wealthy country of 330 million people is not going to sell an equal or nearly equal amount of goods and services to a small poor country exporting resources as most of the alleged 90 countries fit that profile and even a wealthy country such as Germany (83 million), France (68 million) or the UK (68 million) buying on a level/zero barrier field will ever have a zero trade balance with the US.

I'm not convinced the US has the workers available to fully restore manufacturing or that it is a good idea. Critical modern industries such as chips, aircraft and high tech, yes. Is bringing back cheap clothing and low value consumer goods such as waste baskets, utensils and even cheap furniture, probably not. If China or Indonesia wants to make rubber dish racks or socks using cheap labor, I don't believe the US suffers with that being an import nor do I believe with an unemployment rate under 4%, do we have the labor pool craving that work or that regardless of tariffs, will that ever come back.

link

FWIW – an article on the effect on boardgames from a gamer site

In answer to the original post, isn't that what the American electorate voted for?

McKinstry, the "not much surplus labor" argument may be true of Leichtenstein--your home of record on TMP--but there's good reason to believe American economic statisticians, being mostly paid by the government, have their thumbs on the scales and are using the number most favorable to establishment policy. Take a look at workforce participation rates--at record lows for males--and "underparticipation" in which they can't get as much work as they want or need. This fits with my own contacts with the thirtysomething crowd. They're mostly working, but at low pay and with inadequate hours.

You're also taking no account of labor and environmental laws. Not much point in reducing American (or European) consumption of oil, if all that happens is the factory is moved to China or India and powered by coal.

For myself, the election being over, even mid-terms not coming until late next year, and the dickering barely under way, I refuse to work myself into a panic until at least this fall, and next fall would make more sense.

This is early days. At this point in the Clinton Administration, he'd barely found an Attorney General, let alone attempted to fix perceived problems. I will be very surprised if everything promised (or threatened, or just worried about) in April is implemented policy in October.

They're mostly working, but at low pay and with inadequate hours.

I don't see pay becoming any better moving manufacturing back to the US on basic fungible goods. The US consumer has demonstrated they will not pay a premium for US manufactured goods such as socks or rubber trash cans if cheaper alternatives exist and having just finally seen inflation reduced, are unlikely to voluntarily pay extra to see those underemployed males get higher pay. Walmart tried to make "made in the US" a big deal a few years ago and abandoned the effort when for such things, price was all that mattered. I prefer and make an effort to buy US power tools, cars and computers. I don't care who makes my socks and T-shirts and do not want to pay a higher price for such fungible items nor do I believe most Americans.

Hey Robert, your shipment to Canada was charged the VAT and then the a collection fee to cover the brokering of the package across the border. There are no tariffs for model soldiers between Canada and the US. My understanding is that since USMCA the threshold from the US has risen to $100 USD CAD. As a Canadian I don't mind paying the VAT when products come into the country (because I pay it on every transaction from Canadian companies) but I object to the Canadian government charging me to collect their tax. Very frustrating.

We will see who is bending the knee but it seems to me that Trump and Lutnick are scrambling to come up with a new story about the tariffs.

I am not unsympathetic to where Trump is trying to take the US but the way he is going about it is really reckless and irresponsible. You can't unwind the intertwined global economy in a few weeks or months. It is going to take at least a decade to reshore manufacturing to the US. This needs a steady hand and a political consensus between both parties for it to work.

It's your country but it seems to me, trying to bully the rest of the world in order to build some sort of imaginary utopia is daft.

The US should concentrate on building up the educational qualifications of its people so it is the intellectual & service economy of the world. Let Third world countries have factories that make buttons.

It should have *persuaded* its allies into a joint action against the Chinese patent thieves & cyber thieves instead of levying ridiculous million-point tariffs in a war I don't think you'll win.

It should not have relinquished its position as Leader of the Free World.

But, it's your country.

Having taught GED at the local college for nine years, there will always be a large section capable of only laborers positions. Lefty of opportunity for technical positions already. Additional strides can be made at the upper research level. However most of those positions are already held by none citizens. This blocks citizens from pursuing those jobs. As a conservative who is not MAGA, I view Trumps tariffs as a correction needed because of decades of policies pursuing cheap imports over American goods.
For example when Walmart started in 1981, when I saw my first one, over 95% of its goods were American made and it had large banners proclaiming it. By 2000 a majority was foreign imports. And by 2020, almost 90% was imports. This seems to be a reason but not entirely for the tariff policy.

"to where Trump is trying to take the US"

He's not taking it anywhere. He's stripping it of all he can for himself and his mates and is blatantly getting away with.

Hard luck to the plebs.

@ TP

I can't disagree with you about a stratum of society who can't/won't learn skills. But do you really think anyone will employ them, even for starvation wages, in a factory were you can make more money through automation?

The current American regime's plan (if they actually have one) is wrong-headed to expect a flood of manufacturing jobs. That is going, going, almost gone.

So what do with the 'unemployables' – that sounds so elitist. Sorry. The Romans had "Bread & Circuses". The US will have to go to "Netflix & Take-away".

BTW I wouldn't be surprised if in the future, wargaming becomes a lot more popular as people get a lot more "free" time as there'll be less work.

Thank you Marcus. Tell me, though: when Canadian wargamers buy old painted figures from one another at games and meets, do they rush off to pay the VAT and the collection fee? Because if they don't, the effect is indistinguishable at my level from a tariff. Buy from a fellow Canadian, no problem. Buy from one of Those People, and fees stack on top of taxes.

Ochoin, is it "bullying" whenever any national executive changes the terms under which goods are imported? (In which case there area LOT of bullies out there.) Or is this another case in which the rules only apply to the United States? As for the expansion of wargaming, Are British wargamers disproportionately coming from those on "job seeker's allowance?" If not, why do you expect this to change? Or be different in the United States?

I personally regard Imperial Rome as more a warning than an exemplar, especially as concerns welfare and immigration.

For someone who need not pay American taxes or obey American laws, you spend a lot of time berating those of us who do for electing politicians you disapprove of.

I'd be concerned the problem will end up being raw materials for domestic production. I'd hate to have to pay whatever Old Glory and GHQ have to pay every month for pewter

bullying:

-seeking to harm, intimidate, or coerce
-bullying is when people repeatedly and intentionally use words or actions against someone or a group of people to cause distress and risk to their wellbeing.

Apart from being a school yard tactic some leaders (Putin & Xi for example) use it as well.

Herkybird, I hope you are so offended that you tell your leaders that US should be kicked out of NATO. Because the US armed forces has been in Europe before I was born and I spent years of my life in European waters because of NATO. Our so called allies also have been practicing unfair trade with the US for over a half a century now. I understand after WW2 Europe need help with their economies and the US helped. But now, I agree with the POTUS.

Totally agree Jay. The EU should build & buy all its weapons locally, create EU armed forces that are of a suitable size (ie bigger) & prepare to defend themselves against Russia. The US umbrella is gone and about time.

If NATO is a 'dead rubber', the EU need not feel obligated to send troops to the Middle East or Taiwan etc to help the US so it can really concentrate on suitable defences for the local area – though if Canada & possibly Australia buy in they'll still need to sustain a global presence.

Some of the readers will have a better grasp of the large amounts of money the military and deployed troops and families have meant to the host countries over the decades.
The military has spent money on barracks, posts, medical, host employment, and exercise costs. We have to pay rent to store ammo and equipment which inspected on one trip. In the Reforger that I served on, we had to record every road maker hit by an AFV. The unit was charged 50 Marks each in 1979. We paid for damage other countries caused since their governments, British and French, would not.
I thought it was funny when we camped in the woods while our sister German company stayed in the town and houses. It was funny to see an AFV in a garage.

Rather than make some sort of snarky rejoinder, I think we should remember we've been allies for a long time. It's been a productive partnership & all sides owe one another. I regret it seems to be drawing to a close.

What follows may even be better – let's hope.