"The Marine Corps size of a rifle squad" Topic

The Marine Corps has settled the debate over the size of a rifle squad

A standard Marine Corps rifle squad will continue to be 13 Marines with at least one rifleman trained for expertise in long-range weapons like drones, Marine Corps Commandant Gen. Eric Smith announced on Monday.

"This includes a school-trained squad leader sergeant and three fire teams," Smith said at the Navy League Sea-Air-Space 2025 conference at National Harbor, Maryland. "While this structure sounds familiar, it now includes an organic precision fires specialist."

Precision fires are weapons soldiers use to attack an enemy from a distance beyond that of a direct assault, such as mortars, rockets or loitering munitions and drones.

The Marines have experimented with squads with as few as 12 Marines to as many as 15.

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With the advent of the M2 Bradley the US Army Rifle Squad went form 11 when we had the M113. To 9 with the M2. The M2 is and IFV, much better armed and armored than the M113 APC.

I commanded an M113 Mech Co., '87-'89 with a Mech Heavy Bde that was part of the 18th ABN Corps. At Benning[now Moore].

We understood the M2 has more firepower than the M113. But that extra firepower came with the cost of reducing the Squad dismounts to 6. The rest of the Sqd, the Driver, Gunner, TC stayed with the track.

Where the M113 only the Driver and TC stayed with the Track.

The M2 IFV had a lot more firepower with the 25mm cannon and TOWS in a sponson on the turret. A matter of fact the M2 killed more Iraqi AFVs than the MBT. The TOW out ranged the MBT's main cannon by about 1250m.

With the M113 we had the .50 and could even mount the M47 MAW.

And again the M2 had a lot more armor protection too.

But we felt the M2 could only dismount 6. Which we thought was too few. E.g. I was a PLT LDR in the 101. So even with 11 in the Sqd. After we were inserted in by UH-1 or UH-60. But with general attrition, as there were always troops on leave, injured, TDY, at schools, etc. We didn't always have the 11 we were authorized by MTOE.

The M2 with only 6 dismounts. That Sqd, probably would be at certain times be short one or two troops.

The M2's 25mm & TOWs in a lot of firepower. But Infantry does its best work on the ground in most cases. And you can't take the Track everywhere the troops can go.

Of course, with the M113's .50 we rarely dismounted it. Save for deliberate defenses …

The Army went thru a similar reorganization in the late '80s early '90s …

In 1991 I was able to watch the US Army Infantry Conference, think a bunch of stars calling each other by firstname. Anyway, this being right after the Gulf War, they spent a lot of time on how few Infantry were in the Modern Division.

L4,
when I put on my crossed rifles, I only knew the 9 man squad (FM7-8 was my bible); was not until years later that I realized the 10-11 man squad and alternate infantry platoon org had been radically different less than a few years earlier…

But I'm not sure the M2 had that big of a impact on that decision. The M2 platoon is still intended to deliver 3x9man rifle squads, armed identically as a light infantry squad, but with greater access to AT and GPMG support.

I think the more important factor in the adoption of the 9 man squad was the introduction of the M249. With that, suddenly you really did have two viable fire teams, either of which could, in theory, gain a dominance of fire over a single enemy position. Prior to that, you just had an attached GPMG or a M16 rifleman with a few more magazines, which just gave you a WW2 style squad with one each fires and maneuver team set up. With the SAW, you now have two complete fire and maneuver teams, each able to cover the other, each interchangeable in duties, and each easily controlled by the voice of one squad leader.

While the USMC squad, in theory, follows the age old "rule of three" combat patrol system (each leader controlling their own support, reserve/security and main effort teams) I've always wondered if that overly taxed the squad leader.

But I guess both work, as the USMC squad has been relatively unchanged far longer than the Army one!

Friends who works at Fort Benning say the army is moving toward smaller squads.

Anyway, this being right after the Gulf War, they spent a lot of time on how few Infantry were in the Modern Division.

We thought the same … not enough Grunts on the ground. Fire Power is great, but again a Track, M113 or M2 can't go every place a Grunt can go.

And as always, a Grunt is a smaller target and easier to hide than a Track. However, the mobility, armor protection and fire power is certainly a plus. And very important to modern maneuver combined arms warfare. Again, everything is based on situation and terrain.

I was commissioned in '79. So waaaaay back then … … The Rifle Sqd was 11 :

1 SL – M16

A Fire Tm:

1 Tm Ldr M16

1 M203 GL

1 M60 MG

1 M16/Ammo for M60

1 M249 SAW [when I was a Rifle Plt Ldr in the 101, '80-'81, we didn't have the M249. A "clothes pin" bipod was issued to an M16 to be the designated SAW/AR gunner]

B Fire Tm:

Tm Ldr M16

M203 GL

M47 MAW

M16 M47 extra M47 missile

M249 SAW

* M72s and Hand Grenades issued individually as needed …

When I was a Cdr of an M113A1 Co, '87-'89, we had the M249 SAWs issued. [Much better than the Clothes Pin Bipod on M16]

* The Mech Sqd had an M2 .50 HMG on the Track.

No matter what, even an 11 man Mech Sqd would still only dismount 9[Dvr & TC stay with the track]. If it was a full man Sqd. Which didn't always happen.

While the Mech units in (W)Germany were issued the M2 IFV. As the threat of USSR/WP AFVs were massive. Verses at the same time in the ROK, '84-'85, we still had M113 APCs. Where at that time the North Korean Army was primarily Light Infantry with a lot of FA and only minimal armor support.

* At Benning after 22 months in the ROK. My Mech Co. was part of a Mech(M113)Hvy Bde. Which was part of 18th ABN Corps. Which the M113 was lighter and easier to deploy vs. the M2 IFV. Eventually after I ETS'ed the Bde turned in M113s for M2s before the deployed to Iraq, for Desert Storm

AFAIK the two Mech Bns in the 2ID turned in their M113s for M2s. But I had long had ETS'd … IIRC, my old Bde, the 3d/2ID was converted to a Stryker Bde.

But I guess both work, as the USMC squad has been relatively unchanged far longer than the Army one!

That is certainly true. As history demonstrated in many conflicts.

Friends who works at Fort Benning say the army is moving toward smaller squads.

I'd guess with all the newer high tech robotic, etc. AI systems. Maybe less troops will be required.

The TRADOC contact says both the army and Marines are working toward a "one vehicle transport maneuver elements. This would allow the traditional fireteam in a vehicle. The plus one tech to handle drones would be a plus. One vehicle they are using handles six with gear or eight without it.
He said that the Marines have developed tactic that powerful large drones would be launched from ships and control handed to the unit being supported. A smaller recon drone may be part of the squads kit.

That is interesting … But again the vehicle can't go everywhere. But with a vehicle more gear, e.g. firepower/drones, etc. can be carried.

Again, high tech is evolving almost daily …