"Old world concerns" Topic

It's over all looking good.

However the direction GW are taking does worry me.

It's getting a bit like 3 decades or so in less than 3 years.

We have gone from Perry Squires and the Warhammer quest knight to all plastic Cathay.

What are we supposed to take away from this??

Are GW just providing metal because they have the old moulds floating around? Is it because it's an overall cheaper option for a game they weren't 100% sure would work and wouldn't leave them with mountains of stock and big mould bills?

It's looking that way.

I get plastic for a cheaper troops option, ideally alongside metal alternatives, and for larger models to some extent.

GW give us Warhammer. Then they take it away again.., again.

I'd like to think there may be some more opposition to Cathays lack of metal. Perhaps it will take a couple of armies for it to sink in.

Notice how they reveal it, with two classic armies to go. That way we still get metal for them and Cathay is in the mix, so they think/hope we won't notice.

I'm sure some people love all plastic, AOS is that way, enjoy it while it lasts, but Warhammer has a long history of metal figures, so it's unfortunate GW are pushing away again.

There are plenty of less expensive minis from other companies that can easily fill in for theirs if you just want to use their rules. Now that they are a public company and a very successful one at that, look for more decisions based on pleasing shareholders as opposed to love of the hobby. In other words, prices will keep going up.

Other companies figures don't form part of their range, so that excuse is well worn out.

If it were about just making money, it's unlikely they would bring back warhammer, after all isn't that why they killed it? Or perhaps they learnt their mistake?

If prices are supposed to keep going up, then why not more metal?

GW think of themselves as a high end product, yet push low end cr*p. CG designed mass produced plastic.

Hand sculpted, hand cast, metal will always be higher end.

It's like plastic and metal jewellery.

GW have the problem of kids buying junk, but (most) adults actually taking more time to make purchase decisions.

A vomit of bits in a rattly box, or something of actual value?

I acknowledge your opinion but I don't think it's universal.

Many would (& do) argue metal models for the most part just don't seem to be as detailed as plastic, are harder to work with, and much harder to convert.

Personally, I tend to agree, although that doesn't stop me having both media. YMMV, of course.

+1 Captain Sensible

If one is totally unwilling to even consider alternatives then one will have to pay whatever GW price their stuff at. And like it. If one didn't like it one would stop, wouldn't one?

There's no way to wriggle out of it – GW do what they do because their customers allow them to. It isn't GW's fault, they have shareholders to keep happy.

Walking around Adepticon amd asking people's thoughts, I think that the majority of modern players view metal as old school and less quality. They see plastic and multipart super detailed figures as high quality. It is what it is. I particularly laughed as I stood in front of the Iron Wind Metal booth as new Battletech players tried to puzzle out how analyst selling plastic miniatures related to Iron Wind selling metal figs of the same Mechs. Most of my collection is made up of old Iron Wind/ Ral Parthia figures, but the modern players are voting for the plastic with their wallets. It is what it is. Tastes change.

Firstly metal or plastic are as detailed as you make them.

For example, GW just used the original metal/sculpts to make the plastic fellowship of the ring.

Also many metal figures are just better all-round compared to plastic.

Demonettes for example.

The problem isn't that plastic is more detailed then metal, it's that companies are overdoing plastic.

I honestly can see no less ability for detail on metal. Perhaps because so much is CG engineered now?? Perhaps? But, as far as GW many metal figures just look better.

I suspect it is also something to do with AOS, wanting everyone running about with their arms flopping around, as opposed to ranked up, because they can CG on more details?

Having painted plenty of both I see no difference in detail ability. Early 90s and before seem less detailed, but that's just the sculpting, and I think lead based metal can have a rougher surface.

I think it's more to do with the thinness of material achievable in plastic, you know those bit that break off on the sprue.

Like most things it's the restrictions that make it successful.

"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do these other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard."

That's why sculptors are miles above CG engineers.

Plastic is also worse to paint. Having to paint on flat, textureless, details is not fun.

As far as GW alternatives, try telling a Holden fan to use Ford parts, or vice versa. Tell a sports fan to wear opposition colours. Use modern type paints to restore a classic painting. So on. Some time you just want to use the "right" parts. If you want some Frankenstein job of it, you go right ahead.

Actually it is GWs fault, they went public.

Todd McFarlane has said he made figures that intentionally lost money, just because they would be a cool figure.

"modern players view metal as old school and less quality. "

Do not confuse modern players with idiots.

There are plenty of brand new metal figures available of a high quality.

In fact any slump in metal quality would likely be due to cashed up types as GW not pushing it further with advanced materials and techniques.

Most manufacturers are stuck barely where GW left it.

GW made some excellent metal miniatures in design and detail. The mordheim elf on white dwarf comes to mind, as do those demonettes.., again. And again.

They are by far more valuable than a rattly box of vomited sprues.

I can't see any plastic competition there. Not that plastic can't be used alongside such figures. Or for bases.

All of the finest and most detailed aeroplane models are injection moulded plastic (with etched brass fine detail that almost no-one can see anyway).

That's just a fact.

Excellent point. But you mustn't let indisputable fact get in the way of blind, unreasoning opinion.

I am just waiting until some manufacturer turns out a range of injection moulded plastic DR Who figures. Particularly the last Doctors who I really like (Jodie Whittaker!!!)

TBH the Doctor I'd really like to see is The Fugitive Doctor

"All of the finest and most detailed aeroplane models are injection moulded plastic (with etched brass fine detail that almost no-one can see anyway)."

*Emphasis on the etched brass.*

Beautiful.

"blind, unreasoning opinion."

Like plastic being better than metal.

The sole reason GW, and others use plastic is it's cheaper and less labour intensive.

The fact GW have quick fit and more multi part figures, including the same figures, shows it's not about detail.

Actually resin can produce the most detailed figures, as it is easy to have undercuts and finer surface details. But, again, resin is more expensive and labour intensive, plus the moulds don't last as long.

Plastic has, and always will be, a poor man's metal.

No, metal & plastic are quite different things.

Metal: any of a class of substances characterized by high electrical and thermal conductivity as well as by malleability, ductility, and high reflectivity of light.

Plastic: a wide range of synthetic or semisynthetic materials that use polymers as a main ingredient. Their plasticity makes it possible for plastics to be molded, extruded, or pressed into solid objects of various shapes.

As I'm sure you can see, these are NOT the same thing. So "poor man's" anything is patently absurd.
This confusion might be your problem.

"The Sole reason…" etc. Have you bugged their conference room? Your inside knowledge is breathtaking!
Your next sentence should read, "The fact GW have quick fit and more multi part figures, including the same figures, shows it's all about detail." Typo?

@ 20th Maine

The Fugitive Doctor is arguably the best Dr Who ever.

Indeed!

The Big Finish audio adventures just add so many more layers to this Iconic incarnation of the Dr.

Bit off topic but….I did know that Dr Who started back in antediluvian times. I recently saw, on Flashback TV, early episodes. I watched two – John Partwee & Tom Baker as Doctors???
Never again.

Poor storylines, abysmal acting & the production values could not have been more underwhelming. I began watching with Christopher Eccleston & each succeeding Doctor was better than the last. One of my favourite shows.

'Nuf said.

Sorry to spoil your "gotcha" above – but if you think it is possible to cast say, a 5 cm long whip aerial of ~0.1mm thickness in white metal then you are (quite appropriately for a GW discussion) living in a fantasy land.

The casting accuracy would be very poor, and those very few that did cast complete would break the aerial as soon as the figure was handled and boxed up.

Only more confirmation.

I think it's called wire, or brass rod. Like that etched stuff that's apparently more detailed than plastic.

Or, I don't know, just make a thicker aerial.

Fussy folk can just cut it off, drill a hole and glue in some rod or wire.

GW could sell it to them for lots of money so it's "official".

Like, why not make blank bodies then have all the straps and belts brass etched as its apparently so much more detailed than plastic?

It's a miniatures game, not a model kit, Jim.

The point of the topic is about the suspicious change from classic figures to all new figures, not the benifits of either.

It seemed like they were bringing back warhammer with older style figures, suddenly it's gone all plastic.

Bait and switch? I suspect so. And were the armies so far just a carrot to hook older players? We shall see.

Maybe they will bring back more older armies with original figures going forward? Or will they just be plastic?

They were heading in the right direction, now we seem to have come to a cross roads.

Also if they stick with "the old world" there may be many new armies coming out, meaning likely all plastic.

And what about when they decided to overhaul existing armies?

Not looking good.

Why would you describe the change as "suspicious"? I think its what we call "progress".

And I think you brought up the imagined benefits (sic) of the one medium over the other.

And finally, there's this thing called "choice". Buy what you want, don't buy what you don't want. Simples….

All I know is that although I'd prefer a set of the good Dr Who (eg later ones) in plastic, I would buy a metal set, sans the whining, if that's all I could get .

"Like, why not make blank bodies then have all the straps and belts brass etched as its apparently so much more detailed than plastic? "

That's what GW did in the 80's: Cast out a basic pose, then sculpt on all the details (most times only 2 or 3 different "variants", sometimes as many as 20+.) Then cast them up in metal. It's all been done before… ;-)

" "suspicious"? I think its what we call "progress"."

"imagined benefits (sic) of the one medium"

I don't agree with those points.

"good Dr Who (eg later ones)"

Call me paranoid, but it sounds like baiting to me.

"sans the whining"

Again, sounds like provocation.

Z

I meant like they do with model kits and after market brass etched parts. A cool idea, but ludicrous for kids just wanting to play. As I view many GW, Puzz 3D, figures today.

GW was using blanks, or altering figures right up to "fine cast", even into it, I believe. And plastic figures too, I'm pretty sure. So well into the 2000s. Possibly even now. LOTR has them.

Infact picking the same legs, so on, is a fun game to play when looking at pics of GW units. Like the LOTR, or what have you, pics against a white background.

"provocation"? You should realise others hold contrary positions & opinions to you. I'm assuming I should be allowed to express them?

It's too hard to hold a proper conversation with you. I doubt I'll bother again.

It is possible to prefer new Who over old Who – the production values are much higher and TBH if one is under 40 it's the new Who that was the childhood memory.

And who could not love The Fugitive Doctor? Truly great costume.

Be careful. You're being provocative.

I think I can rest my case on that one.

-

Obviously some people prefer the modern tat. Possibly due to upbringing.

The first I saw was Tom Baker, well after the fact, but the the earlier shows were generally better. So what you see first doesn't matter.

I don't feel modern production values are higher, they just cost more.

It's what you do with what you have.

But this isn't the Dr Who board, so readers are welcome to swing on over and join us there.

Obviously I wasn't talking about you – I said people under 40 who didn't start with the older Who. By your own admission that isn't you. Other people might think differently to you, perhaps a hard concept to understand.

Some people prefer the old tat. Possibly due to upbringing.

I'm a tad over 40 but newer Who is my cup of tea.
And BTW because I found the old stuff to be tedious, poorly made & predictable doesn't mean I can't accept others love it (for nostalgic reasons?).

To state the obvious, taste is personal & to rail against the taste of others is, at best, unwise & at worst, intolerant.

But HMan is correct – we must stick to the topic. Is there any inkling a plastic injection moulding range of Dr Who figures may be in the offing? 54 mm would be nice but I'm flexible.

Actually Dr Who in 54mm would be awesome.

There are these – which are 1:21

link

Guess the price? A box of 10 painted Daleks in 1:21…..

….£60. £6.00 GBP each!!

And this is awesome in 15mm

link

Guess the price? £25.00 GBP

Thanks. Collectibles are rarely cheap & the price of the Daleks doesn't seem excessive. P&P to OZ is though. I'll be in London in May so I might get a shopping list ready.

"perhaps a hard concept to understand"

Why? Are you calling me stupid?

"Some people prefer the old tat. Possibly due to upbringing"

Odd words for someone raving about it's lesser derivative.

And yes, a love of classic who is likely due to upbringing.

One including respect.

You should try it and stop trying to bait me.

It has been said that a lot of the old world players, well buyers, let's not get ahead of ourselves, have come from the recent computer game/s.

I find it unlikely so many people would jump from one medium to another so easily, especially with the skill sets required for wargaming.

Anyway, if thats the reason for TOWs success, then Mantic must be surely onto a winner with Halo.

Maybe, GW used the older figures to draw in WFB players, and guarantee numbers, then pull the old switcheroo and go all plastic for all the computer game folk who know nothing about WFB real.

Perhaps.

It will be interesting to see what third parties do. Will we see not Cathay metal?

Would such things influence GW into releasing some of their own?

Do that have plans already?

The Cathay army not released yet, so it's possible they may have some metal characters available, as all other armies do.

It would be odd for them to suddenly change their release schedule just for, seemingly, one army.

One to watch.

I'm not trying to bait you but to do what the forum is for – discuss things.

However, you've convinced me.
So – done & done.

Thank you.

Reading elsewhere, there seems to be a strong opinion that the early armies may have just been a test, with GW changing direction seeing it's success and thus, moving towards all plastic.

Disappointing, as a lot of the appeal was the return of metal figures.

Starting to look more AOS and less WFB.

So, it is possible we may yet see a mass exodus as players who turned up for more traditional armies, or like me are still on the fence, walk away.

This could have the effect of less resistance to the changes, perhaps culminating in something completely different to WFB.

There was the hope of rejuvenation of white dwarf with terrain articles and the like. But without the people to appreciate them, it would seem unlikely. Instead it's probably just more advertising space for rattly boxes of plastic. Shame.

I haven't bought a WD for mostly decades, save the fincast and free chaos chap issues, still from years back. Hardly bother a peruse on the racks. Just advertising and paint by numbers. Ok, some golden demon type stuff, but hardly worth the effort to lift it from the rack. In a good way.

I think H man got a bad case of lead poisoning

Too bad some can't comment on people's posts as easily as they can write tosh about them.

I don't think this is the place to try to bait people for ones own sick desires.

Besides, it's sounds like resin has a higher risk for hobbyists.